Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque

[- Qatada -]

no... the muslims came from africa to conquer spain, they were not originally from there. the muslim presence was the result of a very brutal war... not God... people...

The ummayads settled in spain and yes there was a constant war between the romans and the muslims. However, the muslims lived peacefully with the people who never fought against them. Including the jews and christians.

the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish

Maybe it was because of the constant struggle on who can get hold of the land?

why did you think it was written by a spanish person... or even a christian? the article was not about anything that was related to spain...

Robert Duncan is a journalist and ombudsman for foreign press in Spain. He is a board member and honorary vice-president for the Organización de Periodismo y Comunicación Ibero-Americana. Robert was the bureau chief for an international news agency in Madrid for many years, and was published regularly in Dow Jones Newswires, with articles appearing in The Wall Street Journal.

He has also been published in World Catholic News, National Catholic Register, Renew America, Lifesite.net, as well as Capital Hill Coffee House, Common Conservative, The Conservative Voice, Enter Stage Right, News By Us, Conservative Crusader, World Net Daily, Mens News Daily and others.



http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=6874&t=Was+Pope's+prayer+at+Blue+Mosque,+a+prayer?

i am afraid of the way you talk... it is like you do not believe muslim oppression can ever be a bad thing, and you talk about al andalus like it is some kind of religious duty... why do you say peace when you say things like this...

Muslims can oppress, but islaam doesn't. This usually occurs when muslims judge according to other than the religion of Allaah.

If christians and jews pay the jizya (a small tax) in an islamic state, their blood and honor is protected, they don't have to fight to protect the state and it is only the muslims duty to do that. This is why the jews and christians lived there peacefully, and even rav agreed to this in an earlier post.



Peace.

 

[MTAFFI]

Maybe because their not labelled christians? Maybe their just labelled under another title? Whereas when muslims do something, its; MUSLIM TERRORIST? or ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS?

They arent labeled Christian because they arent, and really I am not sure who "they" are that you are talking about. You dont see anyone rising up and saying "I am a Catholic, and I am waging a Holy war on you" or "That mosque was a cathedral 700 years ago and we want to use it now".

It is Muslim Terrorist or Islamic extremist because the people that are terrorizing base everything they do around their religion. What should we label these people? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

I asked if any trustworthy scholars agreed to the violence?

GOT ME THERE... Good point, this is a step in the right direction. The more Muslims that disagree with this behaviour and make an effort to end it, the more Islam will not be associated with these radicals.

They have the right to ask.

And the Church has the right to say no... the question here is what will the response to that be

Yeah, but the media is owned by a certain authority who may allow some things to be shown, highlighted more than others etc. I believe that, and i see alot of propaganda against our faith.
Peace.

You may think that the media is owned by the government however this is totally untrue. There are government channels but if you heard some of the things that I hear on the television each day that speaks against our government you may not think the same. There are actually more things on the news that speak badly of our government than Islam, everyday "Bushs public approval is down again" or "Major changes needed in the war in Iraq" or the handling of social security or whatever. The things you speak of are highlighted because they are happening against our people, occur on a daily basis, and stem from a particular religion or following.

PEACE

 

[Erundur]

Edit. Fishman had a better response.
Peace.

 

[Fishman]

no it is just something self evident... the anger spanish people felt toward the muslims because of what they did resulted in terrible mistreatment when spain returned to the spanish again... the jews were mistreated too since they were viewed as collaborators...

There was no forced conversion when Islam entered Spain, although there were some minor economic restrictions. Persecution began later in the Muslim rule, but conversion still was not forced. But When the Spanish came in, they forced every Muslim and Jew to leave or convert, and even mistreated those who had converted.

according to your argument, the holocaust (which was like the expulsion of the Moors on a larger scale) was justified because the Germans felt angry at the Jews. The Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country, and as I said, persecution of Crhsitians began later, during the Reconquista.

 

[Jayda]

The ummayads settled in spain and yes there was a constant war between the romans and the muslims. However, the muslims lived peacefully with the people who never fought against them. Including the jews and christians.

what romans... spanish people are greek and gaulic... most of those living in spain were visigoth... the muslims did not settle in spain... they sent an army to conquer it, in fact their general burned their ships and made a very great speach about there being nothing behind them and that they must conquer...

Maybe it was because of the constant struggle on who can get hold of the land?

no not at all... many of the things christians did to muslims and jews were based on what was done to them... mosques were reconsecrated as churches, muslims had to pay heavy taxes and wear things that made them stand out as muslims, they created rules that if a muslim was caught preaching islam to a christian they would be killed... but this (just like the muslim rule) was meant to be a political tool to use against muslims... there are many things like this... the only thing the spaniards did not do that i am aware of is slavery...





Robert Duncan is a journalist and ombudsman for foreign press in Spain. He is a board member and honorary vice-president for the Organización de Periodismo y Comunicación Ibero-Americana. Robert was the bureau chief for an international news agency in Madrid for many years, and was published regularly in Dow Jones Newswires, with articles appearing in The Wall Street Journal.

He has also been published in World Catholic News, National Catholic Register, Renew America, Lifesite.net, as well as Capital Hill Coffee House, Common Conservative, The Conservative Voice, Enter Stage Right, News By Us, Conservative Crusader, World Net Daily, Mens News Daily and others.[/quote]

but what does him being a spaniard have to do with the Pope not praying in a mosque?

Muslims can oppress, but islaam doesn't. This usually occurs when muslims judge according to other than the religion of Allaah.

If christians and jews pay the jizya (a small tax) in an islamic state, their blood and honor is protected, they don't have to fight to protect the state and it is only the muslims duty to do that. This is why the jews and christians lived there peacefully, and even rav agreed to this in an earlier post.

this is not true... the jizya was not just a small tax, it was deliberately meant to humiliate the people paying it

and there was much more than a tax there were forced conversions, churches were not allowed to be rebuilt or repaired... that is why the original church was destroyed to make the mezquita, denying Muhammad was a prophet would mean you are executed, christians could be murdered and muslims would not be punished but christians could be accused of murdering a muslim and be killed just because of the accusation, christians could not carry weapons but had to wear distinctive clothing so that they were targets, spanish women were allowed to be taken as wives against their will... there were pogroms against christians... it was very brutal

Peace.

again i do not understand why you are saying this... none of the things you are defending or asking for are peaceful... why are you saying these things about the mistreatment of spanish people?

 

[Jayda]

There was no forced conversion when Islam entered Spain, although there were some minor economic restrictions. Persecution began later in the Muslim rule, but conversion still was not forced. But When the Spanish came in, they forced every Muslim and Jew to leave or convert, and even mistreated those who had converted.

hola Fishman,

there were many forced conversions under muslim rule... adn that is not the least of the things muslims did to spanish people...

according to your argument, the holocaust (which was like the expulsion of the Moors on a larger scale) was justified because the Germans felt angry at the Jews. The Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country, and as I said, persecution of Crhsitians began later, during the Reconquista.

i am not talking about a justification... i am saying you can see the anger spanish people felt about what the muslims did to them in what they did in turn... and it is not like the nazis... the nazis created an illusion that the jews were responsible for everything that had happened after the war... muslims actually did invade spain and actually did abuse spanish people.

Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country

this attitude scares me very much... why are you all speaking so lightly of invading people...

Dios te bendiga

 

[sudais1]

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

 

[Jayda]

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

hola sudais1

my family is originally from andalusia and tejada... but they came to mexico in the 18th century... like many andalusian families we preserve the history of our relatives through an oral tradition...

Dios te bendiga

 

[duskiness]

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

sorry but I don't get it....which Jayda's statments you believe to be "lies"?

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

 

[Jayda]

sorry but I don't get it....which Jayda's statments you believe to be "lies"?

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

hola duskiness,

yes... i think that is what i was trying to say before about it being a complicated subject for spanish people... because of the muslims there were no dark ages for spain, but at a terrible cost... it is not something that is "welcomed" but the benefits were undeniable... cordoba had lit streets when london was a village

Dios te bendiga

 

[duskiness]

cordoba had lit streets when london was a village

I know Jayda, I have seen Cordoba and its beautiful Cathedral-Mosque. Breathtaking.
Personally I have a sad feeling that this whole issue is only supporting ill feelings between Muslims and Christians. It seems we are ending one "argument" just to start another.

Pan z Toba, Jayda

 

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI we don't wake up one morning and say "hey lets cause problems, lets chant the destruction of a country" Muslims are being attacked in every way possible, verbally, mentally, and physically. Its of Human nature in which we retaliate to these attacks.

Actually, it was Osama bin Laden who did this. The whole war with the west (regarding current affairs at least) stems from this man. Saudi Arabia requested military assistance from the US. This angered Osama and he basically said the US wasnt wanted and should leave. So even though he isnt the ruler of a country, he wanted to make a decision for a country, which was for the US not to be involved. So he began his propoganda and lead a campaign against the west. So really the west is simply retailiating to his and his followers attacks.

When we do attack you say we are terrorist. Now what about Israel, Britain, and USA. "Oh no there strong countries so they can't be terrorists but these less stronger countries in the Muslim world are terrorists because they seem to be attacking us".

We dont attack unless we are attacked. Radical Muslims have been attacking the US since the late 80's with relatively no retaliation. Now that we are doing something about it you are the victims? What about all of those you killed in the embassy bombings, etc? The people labeled as terrorists are labeled that because of their confrontational actions and words.

How many regular Muslims walk down the streets and are chanted at "death to Islam".

I have never seen this happen

Imagine some people drew Jesus naked with these women and it was made a whole joke (not is the Muslim world because we believe in him and you guys believe his god). I'm pretty sure you would be pissed. But wait This insult comes at a time in which you are being attacked everyday.

Funny you should ask, I was actually watching an episode called "Family Guy" just the other night. In case you dont know this is an adult cartoon that will say or do outrageous thing typically based on current events. It is really pretty funny. Anyways the other night i saw an episode where Jesus was calling God on a telephone in Heaven asking if he could come home. God says in response that right then just wasnt a good time for him, Jesus sadly hangs up the phone as it cuts back to God rolling back over to a pretty woman and saying "Now where were we?" It even went further to where the woman pulled out a condom and said "right about here". God replies "come on baby it is my Birthday". I have to say I just laughed it off because i know the people who make the show are idiots! I would also say that at this particular time me as an American am attacked daily.

People especially like you don't see the whole picture, you take a glimpse and then come to your conclusion, when you say were whining, find why are they.

I would bet I see more of the picture than you.

Now doesn't seem reasonable that a country leaves their homeland and travels half-way across the world to take a countries oil. Then they blame the reason on some other thing.

This is ridiculous, you let me know when we see a drop of free oil from the middle east!! lol I laugh everytime I see someone put this on this site. These are the types of ridiculous theories that make so many people look so dim witted. In 20 years we wont even need this oil anyways, not to mention how fast it is running out. Why would we just now go to war over this? If we wanted it for free we would have taken it 20 years ago or even 50 or 100 years ago.

Does seem proper and normal, I say Muslims are facing a humanitarian crisis. People want them out of existence ,
out of their land, out of there culture, and religion. Yet you say we always want to fight. Now does that comment seem fair :rollseyes I don't think so

You are facing a crisis. The more of your people that act out in unacceptable ways the worse the image of Islam will become, on the other hand the sooner you publicly condemn the behaviour of the ones trashing your religion and take action against them the view of Islam will be restored to what it should be. The war against Islam is not a war the US is fighting or any other nation for that matter. The war against Islam is a war against itself, there are many many people in your religion who use your religion as a reason to kill and justify their own actions, you as a people and a religion must stop this if you ever want this "crisis" to end.

Peace

 

[Jayda]

i think maybe everything that can be said about this topic has been said and now we are just becomming unrestled... could we perhaps drop this subject?

gracias...

 

[Fishman]

hola Fishman,

there were many forced conversions under muslim rule... adn that is not the least of the things muslims did to spanish people...

My source on my comments is Wikipedia, which is a rather Islamophobic place. The truth is that whilst there may have been one or two forced conversions, there was no stake burning, no inquisition, no forced emmigration.

i am not talking about a justification... i am saying you can see the anger spanish people felt about what the muslims did to them in what they did in turn...

Again, Spanish crimes were much worse than the crimes of the Moors. There was no Moorish inquisition, the Visgoths converted slowly and under no complusion. It was not until the 11th century that Muslims outnumbered Christians in Spain.

this attitude scares me very much... why are you all speaking so lightly of invading people...

Genocide is much worse than invasion. What the Moors did was relatively slowly and peacefully replace the vishgoth culture. The Spanish viciously destroyed hundreds of years of Islamic culture in a few years. If Palestine gets it's freedom, I certainly would not want the Jewish settlers who had been born there to be kicked out.

 

[duskiness]

Genocide is much worse than invasion.

But invading is still wrong, isn't it? That was - as I see it - Jayda's point. This Cathedral-Mosque is standing in a place which was pogan, Christian, Muslim and again Christian.
Just like Hagia Sophia was Christian and no longer is. We all lost something.
God gave, God took, blessed be His Name.

 

[Jayda]

i really think now is a good stopping point... we all know what each other thinks...

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

I was overjoyed to read the opening post by sonz, it seems the motivation for the Muslims to use the Cathedral would be opportunities for bridge building, peace and reconciliation between Muslims and Christian.

God owns everything, we are but temporary custodians of God’s creation. We are all created by the same God, we are bickering about something that we could share. Where is the spirit of love your neighbour as you love yourself? Where is the spirit of Christians seeking peace and reconciliation with our Muslim brothers and sisters?

It is in our hands to dare to be different, what would Christ advocate for today?

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship and brotherhood,

Eric

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

And we have Eric to the rescue! Simmer the heat guys...

 

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI your to arrogant to understand anything, if you weren't you would actually understand what's going on

i suppose i could resort to name calling and say the same to you, however i will not. I understand that this thread is about why the poor poor Muslims cant use a consecrated Cathedral, and want to make a big deal about it because it was theirs almost a millenium ago. What you need to understand is this isnt a Mosque, and hopefully it never will be. I am all up for interfaith relations however why do we have to make concessions? No one in the Catholic faith is saying you have to give us something to get along better, how about just get along and we dont give you anything and you dont give us anything. Why is there this thought that the Muslims are owed something? We owe you nothing

PEACE

 

[sameer]

I am all up for interfaith relations however why do we have to make concessions? No one in the Catholic faith is saying you have to give us something to get along better, how about just get along and we dont give you anything and you dont give us anything. Why is there this thought that the Muslims are owed something? We owe you nothing

PEACE

Arent muslim women being increasingly asked to give up their hijabs and veils?
what about the calling of the adhan for the community to hear?

U say that u owe us nothing? what about our rights? dont the west boast of being the lands of the free and equal?