Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque

[Abu Zakariya]

MTAFFI

I think it's hard for you to imagine how it is for Muslims in some parts of the world. I live in Sweden and there are a lot of Muslim immigrants here, so there is some tension. I'm not going to say that we're persecuted because I don't think that's true. However, imagine how it is living in a country where you find myths in the media on a regular basis. "Muslims say women are inherently impure" (a claim made in the mainstream media, which simply isn't true), "Muslims want to take over the world", etc. There are certain politicans here that have been talking about forbidding Muslim women to wear a hijab/niqab even if it their own choice (this is basicly to restrict the freedom of Muslim women) and there's even been talk about singling out Muslim girls and forcing them to undergo gynecology examinations! I just read about a Muslim school here which is regularly vandalised and they write racist scribble on the walls regularly. Muslims have been attacked simply for being Muslims (I mean physically, as for verbally this is something I've experienced personally several times) and our mosques are being burnt down. There's a particular mosque in Malmö which couldn't even get insurance because they keep setting it on flames!!

Here's a picture of that mosque in flames:

And this is only the country where I live, how about other parts of the world.
So I think it's unfair to say that Muslims try to make themselves victims. We aren't the only ones pointing out these things. The mayor of London, for instance, said that we are being demonized like the Jews were! Desmond Tutu of South Africa even said that there is apartheid in Palestine, Jimmy Carter said something to the same effect. So, I really don't think it's fair of people to say that we make up stuff. This is reality.

Now, having said that, I do feel that you have a point. Muslims shouldn't whine. We should do something productive and try to change this. The people should feel that we contribute to the society and what is happening is partially our fault (maybe even our fault for the most part). Muslims have a bad reputation and we are the only one's that can change that. We must do something so that people feel that if we left the country, they would feel that it's a loss and not a gain.
However, it's hard when, for instance, the media refuses to mention things like the fact that the Islamic scholars have spoken out against terrorism for example and called it tyranny. Instead, they try to make it seem as if Muslim scholars preach terrorism (there are some obscure preachers that do, but I'm talking about the mainstream big scholars that are accepted in the Muslim world). They need to stop spreading myths (like the one I mentioned in the beginning of the post). But we have to do the most part and start contributing to society and spread a positive image of Muslims.

So I do agree with you, MTAFFI, but I also feel that you need to understand why Muslims may be reacting in certain ways. Have you ever heard about "Post Victimization Ethical Exemption Syndrome"?

 

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI

I think it's hard for you to imagine how it is for Muslims in some parts of the world. I live in Sweden and there are a lot of Muslim immigrants here, so there is some tension. I'm not going to say that we're persecuted because I don't think that's true. However, imagine how it is living in a country where you find myths in the media on a regular basis. "Muslims say women are inherently impure" (a claim made in the mainstream media, which simply isn't true), "Muslims want to take over the world", etc. There are certain politicans here that have been talking about forbidding Muslim women to wear a hijab/niqab even if it their own choice (this is basicly to restrict the freedom of Muslim women) and there's even been talk about singling out Muslim girls and forcing them to undergo gynecology examinations! I just read about a Muslim school here which is regularly vandalised and they write racist scribble on the walls regularly. Muslims have been attacked simply for being Muslims (I mean physically, as for verbally this is something I've experienced personally several times) and our mosques are being burnt down. There's a particular mosque in Malmö which can't even get insurance because they keep burning it down!!

Here's a picture of that mosque in flames:

And this is only the country where I live, how about other parts of the world.
So I think it's unfair to say that Muslims try to make themselves victims. We aren't the only ones pointing out these things. The mayor of London, for instance, said that we are being demonized like the Jews were! Desmond Tutu of South Africa even said that there is apartheid in Palestine, Jimmy Carter said something to the same effect. So, I really don't think it's fair of people to say that we make up stuff. This is reality.

Now, having said that, I do feel that you have a point. Muslims shouldn't whine. We should do something productive and try to change this. The people should feel that we contribute to the society and what is happening is partially our fault (maybe even our fault for the most part). Muslims have a bad reputation and we are the only one's that can change that. We must do something so that people feel that if we left the country, they would feel that it's a loss and not a gain.
However, it's hard when, for instance, the media refuses to mention things like the fact that the Islamic scholars have spoken out against terrorism for example and called it tyranny. Instead, they try to make it seem as if Muslim scholars preach terrorism (there are some obscure preachers that do, but I'm talking about the mainstream big scholars that are accepted in the Muslim world). They need to stop spreading myths (like the one I mentioned in the beginning of the post). But we have to do the most part and start contributing to society and spread a positive image of Muslims.

I want to start out by saying thank you so much for saying that Muslims need to do something to change their image. So many want to just make excuse after excuse as to why people do things, instead of saying "Hey I dont believe what he did was right and it brought us down as a people and culture and we must do something to change this". I have been a lot of places in this world and yes there are a lot of negative comments made about Muslims, and most of this is perpetuated by the media which does give negative press to your people everyday. At the same time this type of negative press wouldnt be given if it werent going on, now dont get me wrong here, some things are flat out wrong, this is where the media needs to work on themselves. (you and I both know that wont happen)

I think if more Muslims thought like yourself it would fix a lot of things, unfortunately I think that Islam itself is becoming more and more a veil for those who want to use it for their own agenda, this is very sad, since it makes people who truly love and wish to serve God look like something they are not.

I know I probably come off on this site as an intolerant American who just wants to argue, but this is not the case, I just wish people would take responsiblity, and I think this is what Islam needs. The scholars and leaders of Islam need to come out and say "The violence in Iraq is not islamic, Iran is not Islamic, etc. and therefore these people are not practitioners of our faith, rather practitioners of murder, violence and everything that is not Islam" and they cannot just denounce this and just move on. They need to make a scene about it, like say with the prophet cartoons (without the violence). The media would never miss that, and I think alot more people would understand that this is not accepted.

So I do agree with you, MTAFFI, but I also feel that you need to understand why Muslims may be reacting in certain ways. Have you ever heard about "Post Victimization Ethical Exemption Syndrome"?

No i havent heard of this i will look it up on the wikipedia

PEACE AND THANK YOU FOR THE POST

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MTAFFI

I have read through this thread again and I have to say I am more sympathetic towards the Muslim’s intentions than the Christians intentions. I can’t understand that what was once the third holiest Islamic place of worship has now been denied to them. They just want to make some arrangements to pray there, I really cannot see why Catholics cannot work something out.

Yes history does matter and people should not forget it, but just because you had something 700 years ago and lost it doesnt mean you just get it back today because it was yours 700 years ago, if this were the case nothing would have ever changed in history and this is not good.

Where in the Bible does Christ advocate taking property or a place of worship by force?

It seems that you are leaving the Muslims only one way to pray there. They should get an army and take it back. If they hold onto it for seven hundred years it becomes a Muslim shrine again.

This kind of reason and logic just does not seem to fit in with God’s plan for a holy place of worship. It highlights what is worst in all religions- conflict and ownership of God’s land by mere mortals.

There is one God who created each and every one of us, God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world. We need to live in the spirit of love your neighbour as we love our self.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

 

[Jayda]

hola Eric_H

i do not mean to sound offensive... but i think you mentioned you are a Roman Catholic... Canon 1210 forbids the use of a Church for an impious purpose and a Cardinal has already rejected this request... the Church is very clear in its laws about the use of churchs and sharing them with non-believers is not allowed... the things you are saying about this Cathedral, while i think are in the spirit of tolerance, are going too far... you are saying things in opposition of Magisterium... that is forbidden... it is a sin... have you considered this?

and can we PLEASE stop this topic? nobody is saying anything... we are confusing speaking loudly for speaking intelligently and it has gone far off topic... and it is a dead issue that only provokes... let it be closed... please...

Dios te bendiga

 

[Abu Zakariya]

The scholars and leaders of Islam need to come out and say "The violence in Iraq is not islamic, Iran is not Islamic, etc. and therefore these people are not practitioners of our faith, rather practitioners of murder, violence and everything that is not Islam"

But they have done this! The problem is that the media doesn't mention these things. Look at this book:

http://www.fatwa-online.com/downloads/dow004/islamagainstterrorism.chm

The book contains collections of fatwas against terrorism. They are issued by some of the major scholars in the Muslim world. Here's an example:

Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh, the muftee (one qualified to pass fatwa) of Saudi Arabia and the head of the Council of Senior Scholars and The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa has said that: "The explosions which have taken place in the United States of America are but a strike of oppression, injustice and tyranny - (all) which are not in agreement with the Sharee'ah of Islaam."

Here's another example of what he said:

That the Muslim who learns the details of his religion, and who acts upon the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) does not allow himself to fall into the likes of these actions, due to what they contain of exposing oneself to the wrath of Allaah, and then what results from them of harms and corruption (upon the earth).

They clearly said that this is against Islam.

and they cannot just denounce this and just move on. They need to make a scene about it, like say with the prophet cartoons (without the violence). The media would never miss that, and I think alot more people would understand that this is not accepted.

Well, the first thing you need to understand is that these particular scholars weren't for the scenes and demonstrations made against the cartoons in the first place. They don't believe in those kind of things. So they aren't going to do these kind of things now, just like they didn't when the cartoons came out.

What they have done, however, is they have worked hard to educate the Muslims about their religion and show them that terrorism is un-Islamic.

They imprison possible terrorists and here's an explanation of what they might do:

The counseling is conducted through discussions in appropriate settings during which the prisoner talks about his beliefs and the evidence verifying them, which we in turn discuss and modify, explaining the true meaning of the evidence he provides as proof for his beliefs. Many, thank God, change their viewpoints in one session. Afterwards, a report is written stating that counseling and discussion has been conducted. In the report, we include what this person's former ideas were and how they have changed and we then recommend his release. Some have been released and even come to visit me at the mosque every now and then.

The quote is from a scholar, Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin al-Ubaykan who works with the Saudi ministry of Justice. You see how effective it is when the scholars point out the mistakes and shows him what Islam really teaches, which brings about reform with that person.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda, and no offence taken,

do not mean to sound offensive... but i think you mentioned you are a Roman Catholic... Canon 1210 forbids the use of a Church for an impious purpose and a Cardinal has already rejected this request... the Church is very clear in its laws about the use of churchs and sharing them with non-believers is not allowed... the things you are saying about this Cathedral, while i think are in the spirit of tolerance, are going too far... you are saying things in opposition of Magisterium... that is forbidden... it is a sin... have you considered this?

All the laws and the prophets of God hang on the two greatest commandments, how does the Cardinals ruling hang on loving your Muslim neighbours as you love yourself? I am thinking more of our Muslim brothers and sisters in Spain who would like to pray in the Cathedral.

In the spirit of searching for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

 

[Jayda]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda, and no offence taken,



All the laws and the prophets of God hang on the two greatest commandments, how does the Cardinals ruling hang on loving your Muslim neighbours as you love yourself? I am thinking more of our Muslim brothers and sisters in Spain who would like to pray in the Cathedral.

In the spirit of searching for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

hola Eric_H,

do you believe that loving people means pleasing them or giving them whatever they want?

Dios te bendiga

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

letting Muslims pray there doesnt mean u should give to us. i would love to have it, but they conquered it and now they keep it. plain and simple.

 

[Jayda]

letting Muslims pray there doesnt mean u should give to us. i would love to have it, but they conquered it and now they keep it. plain and simple.

hola Tayyaba,

Canon Law does not speak about physical ownership but instead the activities of the church... it cannot be used for an impious purpose and using a church as a multifaith worship center is impious... please understand that this is not a question of liking muslims or wanting to have a closer relationship with muslims, it is a matter of Canon law and it cannot be abrogated... it is like asking muslims to do something against islam for multifaith reasons... that is what they are asking...

Dios te bendiga

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

then i wonder why most people have an issue with Muslims and say we aren't
"peaceful." I understand those are ur rules, so i have no problem with it. so much hypocrisy. people need to look at themselves...not referring to u btw

 

[rubiesand]

Canon 1210 forbids the use of a Church for an impious purpose and a Cardinal has already rejected this request... the Church is very clear in its laws about the use of churchs and sharing them with non-believers is not allowed

Churches which are no longer in use have been adapted to become restaurant and here an example of a Catholic church being sold to become a mosque. So if one day, the Church no longer needed Cordoba, it could again be used by Muslims is that correct?

 

[Jayda]

Churches which are no longer in use have been adapted to become restaurant and here an example of a Catholic church being sold to become a mosque. So if one day, the Church no longer needed Cordoba, it could again be used by Muslims is that correct?

hola rubiesand

Yes this is correct... Canon 12:30 i think... congregations usually have the most direct control over the parish they belong to... if they wish to move to a different building they ask for approval from their bishop and if he grants it there is a ceremony to deconsecrate the building, which makes it no longer a church or house of God, and it can be used for what the Church calls "profane' use...

a consecrated Church may not be used for any other purpose than worship though...

Dios te bendiga

 

[Jayda]

then i wonder why most people have an issue with Muslims and say we aren't
"peaceful." I understand those are ur rules, so i have no problem with it. so much hypocrisy. people need to look at themselves...not referring to u btw

hola Tayyaba,

i do not know if i understand the connection between these peaceableness and church consecration... has somebody asked muslims to deconsecrate a mosque and make it something else for peace...?

Dios te bendiga...

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

no im jus speaking generally lol. sorry if i confused u :X

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda,

do you believe that loving people means pleasing them or giving them whatever they want?

Always a tricky question to answer truthfully but as a Catholic I would like the freedom to worship in any place that has a deep meaning for me. If for whatever reason Catholics were ever denied the freedom to worship in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; ( the tomb of Christ ) I would feel a great loss.

If I want the freedom to worship in the places that have a deep meaning for me, then I should also respect other peoples needs to worship in places that have meaning for them.

The Cordoba Mosque was the third most important Muslim site, so I can understand that Muslims would still have a great need to pray there.

If I am to truly love my Muslim brothers and sisters as I love myself then I must willingly and freely give them this same freedom that I desire for myself.

In the spirit of seeking peace for our neighbours

Eric

 

[mariam.]

Peace be upon who follow the truth and seek for it:
I didn't read all the reply but ..
Many question swarm in my heart .. Asking me day after day why ...
Why we should suffer jews faults and sins .. Now after 3000 years?
Why we can't just dreaming to return to Andalus that we lost either becouse of our faults and sins ..? now after 700 years
Why all the world confirm jews right to reoccupy palastine now?
Why we can't just said that we have right to regain cordoba to be mosque?
What jews gave to us except damage, kill, recism and poverty?
What we give to Andalus except knowledge, fairness, improvement, civilzation?
Both make mistakes and leave the godly legislation .. Why this partial view?
I have nothing to say except :
Palastine .. Andalus, same story .. Different view