Muslims converting to Christianity

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But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:8
Who is to say that the "gospel" preached by Saul/Paul to which you refer was a true revelation from Allah?

Ga 1:11-12 For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through revelation of Jesus Christ.

He received this "revelation" on the road to Damascus while traveling there with the intention of arresting followers of "The Way". There is no evidence that he followed Jesus (as) to witness first hand his miracles or to listen to his sermons and parables. He did not even go to the disciples of Jesus (as) to learn of his message second hand until 3 years later.

Ga 1:15-19 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, [even] from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
 
'whatisthepoint' might be on to something that was lost to all historians through out the ages..
you know the same way 'witch doctors' have cures for diabetes, HTN and pancreatic cancer, that are lost to all the folks at Harvard med!...

I say if you have proof and not alot of bluff bring it forth-- we haven't been entertained here for a while!

cheers!
Not all hsitorians agree on his illiteracy.
And here's the Quranic evidence, as well as evidence from islamic historians

And it's rather strange that a political and rhetorical genius as he was couldn't learn how to read and write.
 
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Who is to say that the "gospel" preached by Saul/Paul to which you refer was a true revelation from Allah?
Dunno, but for some Christians the verse in question is yet another evidence of Islam being satanically inspired and yet another evidence of the Bible successfully predicting the future...
In my opinion, it is yet another dubious verse.
 
Not all hsitorians agree on his illiteracy.
And you can distinguish the difference between a reputable historian and a quasi intellect by way of the Daniel pipes site?
by the way who is G. Adisoma? Think I'll go with the assertion in the Quran, if for nothing else, for its historical perspective.. if I were to hold it as a history book alone, it is the oldest and holds its weight, being untampered since recorded--- over Adisoma's political analysis and page 646!

And here's the Quranic evidence, as well as evidence from islamic historians
Adisoma isn't an Islamic historian nor is quoting me page 646 of an 1967 oxford

And it's rather strange that a political and rhetorical genius as he was couldn't learn how to read and write.
'rhetorical'? It is certainly a blessing the disparity of his orphaned upbringing, his very humble life, even up to his death he had his armor pawned to a Jewish man from poverty, plus the very axiomatic difference between his spoken word (the hadiths) and that which came in the Quran, which until this day hasn't been reproduced in style, transcendence, rhyme, or meaning. His millitary genius, if anything, I say that is a testament to his prophethood not a condemnation..

cheers!
 
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How come muslims are so confident about "proving" Quran is the word of God?

If I were god, I'd have a constant relationship with my creation. I'd be there for everyone who needed me, I'd answer questions etc.

I don't know why God(who does not have needs) wants people's confirmation.

Why does he want people to believe in some semi-convincing book...

Proving Christianity wrong does not prove Islam!

Lol, I need to write this one down.:D

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Re: How come muslims are so confident about "proving" Quran is the word of God

grab a Qur'an with Tafseer that has a good introduction and you'll see how the Qur'an was compiled. we also have a pretty good acid test:take ALL of the "Holy" books in the entire world and toss them into the ocean and destroy all of the backup copies on pc's and such. within 2 days, and taking Hafiz that speak 8 different languages from 8 different counties, you could have an EXACT copy of the Qur'an within 2 days. this Qur'an could be verified by approximately TEN MILLION Hafiz in the world today! that's MORE than confident! regarding the Bible, you couldn't even get Christians to agree on what Books to include or even what verses of the books that they do choose to include!

re: If I were god, I'd have a constant relationship with my creation. I'd be there for everyone who needed me, I'd answer questions etc.

how would you maintain this "constant relationship?" would you have laws? how would you communicate these laws? how would you be there for "everyone that needed you?" what would you do if these people decided that they didn't want you, or care to obey you?

our Imam laid out a nice view last night, non-believers work, grab a sixpack on the way home, have sex with "someone" and go to bed. real fulfilling (and of course that's not ALL non-believers); but AS MUSLIMS, we get to start out day with, well EVERYTHING starts with BismiAllah! you pray Tahajjud at home, Insha' allah and some sunnah prayers. in a little while proceed to the Masjid to pray Fajr, the morning prayer. some stay and do Dzikr until sunrise and some pray Duha, the midmorning prayer. then we have Duhr, the afternoon prayer. as thu sun starts to lower in the sky, we have Asr prayer. just after sunset we have Maghrib prayer and before too long we have Isha prayer. now if your Iman starts to weaken, we have Ramadhan! custom made to recharge and revitalize us! and if through all this you start to accumulate some $$$, then go on Hajj!!! Alhumdulillah, it sounds like a "constant relationship to me!

re: I don't know why God(who does not have needs) wants people's confirmation.

it's not our confirmation that He's looking for. we have been granted this temporary existance in this dunya to see who will perform the best deeds and earn the most reward out of Allah subhannahu wa ta' aala's Mercy!

re: Why does he want people to believe in some semi-convincing book...

actually, unlike the angels, we have total free will. we can choose to recognize Allah Allah subhannahu wa ta' aala and to obey Him or not! no one is forcing anyone!

re: Proving Christianity wrong does not prove Islam!

some Muslims think that is how you make da'wah! but for some of us, it was how we spent our life! i only came to Islam last year but have been challenging Christianity for decades!

i hope that you don't find this annoying! :okay:

:w:
 
...and how is this different from "Son of God"?
Would Jesus have been born to "die on the cross" had there been no Mother Mary to give birth to him? What if both had died in childbirth? In what form was Jesus before he was born? Does he have the pre-birth form or the 30 year old human form as he now sits at the right hand of God?

First, let me confess that my answer is pure speculation on the pre-birth form of "God the Son". But I believe that this was spirit, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are also spirit. There are of course theophanies in the Tanakh where God reveals himself to humankind or show himself in some way, but they are not instances where he actually embodies those manifestations. That is what is unique of Jesus. It wasn't God just putting on a human costume and walking around among us, it was God actually embodying human flesh, and being subject to all of the limitations of that flesh. Yes, I know that Muslims cannot accept this. I don't expect you to. But that is the Christian understanding. So, before God did this, Jesus (who is God incarnate) didn't exist any more than you or I do.

Now, I guess here I run into another Muslim concept, that is foreign to me, and rather new in my observations, so I may not understand exactly what Muslim mean by it well. But I guess that Muslims believe that Allah has already created every soul and keeps them with him in heaven until such time that he places them in a human being whom he creates in a woman's womb. I'm not sure I got that right. But anyway, nothing like that is part of Christian understanding. Rather, for us, the soul is created at the time that the body is created; they have the same beginning point in time. I assume that Jews have a similar view, but maybe I am wrong on that, so you may wish to ask a Jew.

So the human being Jesus did not exist prior to his conception. But God the Son did. This pre-Jesus understanding of God the Son is just one aspect of who God is and has always been. When Muslims say that Allah created the world, sent his message to Abraham, or to Moses, Christains would say that this was the same God who would later in time incarnate himself in human flesh and at birth be given the name Jesus.

The whole concept of Jesus as the son of God was not about their being a second God, but was titulature that worked and was understood in the 1st century. Today, I think we get caught in thinking genetics, which is not at all part of the picture that language was trying to paint. It was more about essence, just as we still retain language where we talk about a son being a chip off of the old block because the essence of the father is also present in the son. This gets closer to what was meant by referring to Jesus as the Son of God, than any genetic or biological understanding of that concept. And that is why I make less of Mary's role as "mother of God" than the Catholic do, though I still retain the biblical language of Jesus as God's son.
 
Could the Spirit of Truth/Comforter/Counselor in John refer to the Angel Jibrael?

NO. Again, see what Jesus has to say about this Spirit of Truth/Comforter/Counselor. Jesus say, regarding the Spirit of truth, "you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:17). Neither Islam nor Christianity (nor any other religion, to my knowledge) claims that any angel, let along the Angel Jibrael lives in a person. But Christianity does understand that disciples of Christ can have the Holy Spirit living within them.
 
NO. Again, see what Jesus has to say about this Spirit of Truth/Comforter/Counselor. Jesus say, regarding the Spirit of truth, "you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:17). Neither Islam nor Christianity (nor any other religion, to my knowledge) claims that any angel, let along the Angel Jibrael lives in a person. But Christianity does understand that disciples of Christ can have the Holy Spirit living within them.

So, angel cannot be in a person, but alleged god can?
 
It's a valid question. Somebody comes to you and says, listen pal, I wanna become a Christian, but explain some thing to me before I do: Say...mother of God? What's all about that? God created Mary, yet Mary gave birth to God?

I do wanna hear the answer to all of those questions, yet you fail to provide them. All please give some more details on "God changing His form", which implies "God has a body", or "God is formed of elementary particles just like we, etc." Now that doesn't sound like God, Who created those very pieces.

I hope my answer to MustafaMc, above, covered what you were asking. Where it didn't I'm sure you'll have an opportunity to ask again, and I'll do the best I can at that time.


PS That is...if my English is good enough for you to understand it?
I hope you didn't take offense at my comments regarding your English. I know that there are many on this board for whom English is a 2nd, even a 3rd, language. While English is my first language, I do know the difficulties associated with learning another language first hand. And I know that sometimes things do get lost in translation because of that. I wasn't trying to put you down, but simply suggesting that we are working with multiple translations here, from the original languages to English and then from English to whatever is your mother-tongue. And in addition to language, we are also working with different cultures and periods of time. What a 17th (or even 20th) century English translator choose as an appropriate way to express something to people in his day may not be the best way to express it for you, especially if you take something literally that was meant more figurative by the author in the first place. The results can lead to misunderstandings of the concept even when you understand all the terms.


I personally have only minor problems with God coming in human form, the main one being, it's a bit easy for a standard run-of-the-mill non-divine human to claim they are God. I work in psychiatry and hear it evry day.

The bit I wonder about is, If God decided to appear in human form in order not to freak people out by appearing as a fifty headed cat or something , quite clearly supernatural, then why did he go to all the fuss and bother of being born conventionally. Why wait 27 years before jumping up and saying "Hey everyone, I'm actually God, i was just keeping me head down for a bit, but nows the time to come clean!"
Why not just appear on the mountaintops, glowing a bit and appearing simultaniously to the Israelites, The Romans , The Gauls and the Native Americans and Inuits, so that everyone got his message, was in no doubts and could get on with praising him and making the world nice.

Total Public Relations muck up.

I agree with PurestAmbrosia, you create a clever image. And really, it is a good question. Why didn't God appear in some other form? Why not just appear as a full-grown man rather than having all that "down" time involved with growing-up human? Why not make himself known to all people at one time rather than to so few and depend on them to get the word out?

Well, first, let me suggest that even in asking the question you have admit 2 things:
1) If God is God, then God could have done any of these things, or others we may not have the ability to even conceive of. And I would agree that those options did exist.
2) If God had multiple options available to him, when he finally settles on the particular option that he did use, he probably had a reason for it. I think it is incombant on us then to try to determine what God's reason was, rather than say God it would have been better if you had done XYZ.

You see, many here assume that they know God's reason in coming:
1) Muslims say that it was to get his message out.
2) Atheists and agnostics say that if God really does exist and is going to come, that they simply want God to prove himself to them.

But, what if God didn't have either of those things on his agenda? If God had a different agenda than we would create for him (and if he is God and we are not it might make sense for God to have a different agenda than we could conceive on our own), then it would also make sense for God to come differently than we would conceive of him coming.

The Christian message is NOT that God came primarily to reveal himself. Although Jesus does make God known to us, if it was only about sending a message, he could have continued to have sent prophets (as he had in the past) or used more and greater theophanies (again as he had in the past). The Christian message is that God came to reconcile the world to himself. That's Paul's language, and I know that some of you don't like Paul, so let me quote Jesus on this one: "the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost" (Luke 19:10). And while it is true that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, it is not true that he was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel. (I'll have to cover that more at some other time, but in the very same Gospel quoted by Muslims to assert that Jesus was only for the nation of Israel, we see Jesus tell the parable of the tenants and the parable of the wedding banquet that tell a very different story. Plus his most emphatic command to his disciples is the last thought Matthew leaves his readers with, that Jesus commands us to make disciples of "all nations".)

So, with the goal of reconcilation, it is not so much the message of Jesus that is important, but the work of Jesus that is significant. That work is one that is not done by a messenger, but by a very unique indvidual that could stand in the gap between God and human kind. For that one needs a God who not only looks human (ruling out that 50-headed cat), but actually shares our humanness with us And so Jesus enteres into it completely. He doesn't come just masquerading as a human being (ruling out the showing up fully formed adult from out of nowhere), he suffers through it with us. And more identification could he have with us than to enter the world exactly as we do and to face all of the issues of growing up that we do and live with all of the problems of life that we do. Jesus, scripture tells us, identifies with our weakness -- "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin" (Hebrews 4:15) -- teaching us that in our weakness we can still find God's strength to be the people God wants us to be and to become.

Yes, God wants the world to recognize him. But that would not have been enough. God wants a world that actually can belong to him, and until Jesus took care of the problem of sin, just getting the message out of his existence or how we should live would not have been enough. So, Jesus did what only God can do, he stepped in the gap between God and humanity, and then God invites us to join him in what it is that we can still do, that is to get the word out. Which, is what we are still trying to do.
 
So, angel cannot be in a person, but alleged god can?

I suppose that anything is possible with God. But neither Christian nor Muslim scriptures lend any credence to the idea that any angel was ever known to satisfy Jesus words that he used to describe this Spirit of Truth we are talking about "for he lives with you and will be in you."

Given that, the question you pose is rather moot.
 
NO. Again, see what Jesus has to say about this Spirit of Truth/Comforter/Counselor. Jesus say, regarding the Spirit of truth, "you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:17). Neither Islam nor Christianity (nor any other religion, to my knowledge) claims that any angel, let along the Angel Jibrael lives in a person. But Christianity does understand that disciples of Christ can have the Holy Spirit living within them.

We believe angels can take human form. Not sure if that is relevant, just wanted to point it out.

Man... this thread is so overgrown.:hiding:
 
We believe angels can take human form. Not sure if that is relevant, just wanted to point it out.

Man... this thread is so overgrown.:hiding:

Yes. So do we. For instance, we believe that Lot's visitors were angels. But there is a difference between saying that angels can assume a human form, and saying what Jesus said, that the Spirit of truth would live "with you and will be in you." No angel does that.
 
I suppose that anything is possible with God. But neither Christian nor Muslim scriptures lend any credence to the idea that any angel was ever known to satisfy Jesus words that he used to describe this Spirit of Truth we are talking about "for he lives with you and will be in you."

Given that, the question you pose is rather moot.

I don't recall the Qur'an mentioning anything about "for he lives with you and will be in you". That's nonsense. If a Muslim says that, he/she is not a Muslim any more, for those words are heavy words...
But you still didn't answer my question: do Christians believe God "is everywhere"? If so, in what sense? Physical, metaphysical, spiritual, mental, whatever...? Bottom line - do God exist in things? If so, what happens to the answer to: where/how did God exist before the creation (according to Christian faith)?
 
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Truly, I did answer. God exists in God's own plane of existence. He existed before time as he created time. That means that he exists outside of the dimension that you and I experience as time. Similary God exists outside of the dimensions that you and I call space and matter for he created these things as well. Once you understand that God does not exist in space, matter, or time, to speak of God existing in any dimension that we as space and time trapped beings might comprehend is ludicrous.

God is a spiritual being. God is an eternal being. God enters into our world, but is not a part of our world (except, Christians hold, in the person of Jesus Christ). As I understand it, this is also how Muslims speak of Allah. And though you may not be familiar with thinking along the lines I have described here, I do not think it is foreign to Muslim thought or theology. However, there are some differences because Muslims, though not thinking of God as being like humans, tend to think of God as actually having hands and eyes and other body parts mentioned in the Qu'ran, whereas Christians generally understand these to be figures of speech. In the resurrection from the dead, our bodies are transformed so as to be able to dwell with God as we enter into the heavenly realms.

So, yes, God is everywhere. But not with a physical body. I guess that means it is more metaphysical. But even that is a poor understanding, like a single one-dimensional point trying to understand the concept of a thee-dimensional sphere.

And, no, God does not exist in things. As I've already said, things exist in God. He is the creator of all things, and their being holds together in him. In one sense, God is always in the act of creating. I don't mean creating in the sense of making one thing today and another thing tomorrow. I mean that God is always in the process of creating and holding all things together at all times, so that if God were to quit doing so, all things would cease to exist except for God who would still be because God always is. If God were to cease his act of continuous creation nothing that now is would continue to be. We would simply be gone, and there wouldn't even be dust left to give evidence that we ever were nor a place to view the emptiness of the universe from, for the universe would be no more as well. And yet, God would still be. And would be then, as now, the totality of all that is.
 
I don't recall the Qur'an mentioning anything about "for he lives with you and will be in you". That's nonsense. If a Muslim says that, he/she is not a Muslim any more, for those words are heavy words...

I agree that those words are heavy words. And this is important in coming to an understanding of the different views that Muslims and Christians have of the Spirit. I would remind you, however, that those words are the words of Jesus. If, as you say, one who says those words is not a Muslim, then you are saying that Jesus is not a Muslim. Please note, that is your own conclusion in this matter, not something I have told you.
 
I agree that those words are heavy words. And this is important in coming to an understanding of the different views that Muslims and Christians have of the Spirit. I would remind you, however, that those words are the words of Jesus. If, as you say, one who says those words is not a Muslim, then you are saying that Jesus is not a Muslim. Please note, that is your own conclusion in this matter, not something I have told you.

I agree, if Jesus indeed said those words, then he is not a Muslim any more. But you have to know something, Jesus, peace upon him, as we know him, Jesus as described in the Qur'an and the Sunnah could not have said those words and in fact - he never did. And yet, he was a Muslim, peace be upon him.

It's what the Bible claims - that he said those words, but that's what's written in the Book, and not what has been historically proven and the Muslims obviously don't believe he said those words.
 
I agree, if Jesus indeed said those words, then he is not a Muslim any more. But you have to know something, Jesus, peace upon him, as we know him, Jesus as described in the Qur'an and the Sunnah could not have said those words and in fact - he never did. And yet, he was a Muslim, peace be upon him.

It's what the Bible claims - that he said those words, but that's what's written in the Book, and not what has been historically proven and the Muslims obviously don't believe he said those words.

But remember, it is this same Bible that you don't trust, that earlier you were saying prophesized about the coming of Muhammad. And it is this same passage that describes the Spirit by words that you are saying that Jesus could not have said.

Muslims talk about how they honor the same Jesus we Christians worship, but the Jesus they seem to know from the Qu'ran is such a different one from the Jesus that we Christians know from the Bible that they might as well be two completely different people.
 
But remember, it is this same Bible that you don't trust, that earlier you were saying prophesized about the coming of Muhammad. And it is this same passage that describes the Spirit by words that you are saying that Jesus could not have said.

Muslims talk about how they honor the same Jesus we Christians worship, but the Jesus they seem to know from the Qu'ran is such a different one from the Jesus that we Christians know from the Bible that they might as well be two completely different people.

There couldn't have been two Jesus. Only one. The Messenger of Allah. And there's no contradiction in what I've said: we Muslims can't say that the whole Bible is corrupted/altered, the problem is that we don't know which verses, chapters of even books have been altered. But what we do know is a fact, that based on our knowledge that Jesus was not only a Muslim but also Allah's one-before-the-final Messenger, peace upon him, that Jesus simply could not have said such words, as a Messenger of Allah cannot be a non-Muslim.
 
But remember, it is this same Bible that you don't trust, that earlier you were saying prophesized about the coming of Muhammad. And it is this same passage that describes the Spirit by words that you are saying that Jesus could not have said.

Muslims talk about how they honor the same Jesus we Christians worship, but the Jesus they seem to know from the Qu'ran is such a different one from the Jesus that we Christians know from the Bible that they might as well be two completely different people.
touche!

but woe unto us! :(
 

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