Muslims urged to vote to keep out extremist parties

[Whatsthepoint]

If you explain what you mean by 'Christian secular' continent, then perhaps I can try to answer your question ...

what we have today, multicultural, multireligious, mutli world view etc society. You can be a devout Muslim, a devout atheist, black, gay, lesbian whatever.

 

[KAding]

^ KAding, May I ask who you voted for? : )

Not Wilders and the PVV if that is what you are asking . That guy has gone completely nuts.

No, I voted for the VVD (the free-market liberals). These were European elections, so I tried to keep EU issues in mind. I am somewhat skeptical about the European Union, I think Europe needs to focus on economics and open borders. I don't want a Europe that decides issues that could just as easily be arranged locally. For example, I do not want to the EU to decide on moral issues (for example same-sex marriage, abortion, euthanasia) or social issues (minimum wage, maternity leave, social benefits, immigration).

And I consider myself fairly libertarian (I'm highly individualistic and belief that everyone has a personal path to happiness, there is no one-size-fits-all solution). So I ended up at the VVD. I also generally sympathize with D66, but for this election they were way too pro-European for my liking.

Are you Dutch also Güven?

 

[KAding]

The Balkans never witnessed peaceful coexistence during the Ottoman times and is today the poorest part of Europe.
Islamic spain was better than the most of Europe, but worse than today in terms of tolerance etc, Kading didn't mention non-Muslims were ordered to wear special clothes according to their religion.

The thing is. Islam clearly was progress on so many points compared to what we had here in Europe back then or what was the norm in pre-Islamic Arabia. But there have come things after Islam which were even better thought out and better suited to changing society. And there will most likely be political solutions and social orders that are better than what we have now.

<faith mode>I believe in human progress. Slowly but surely we are going forward. Slowly and surely we are refining our moral codes, we are on a path to abolishing slavery, abolishing interstate war, abolishing tyranny, abolishing poverty, improving political rights, animal rights, women rights, etc... We'll never find a perfect order, and we take steps back occasionally, but I think we're clearly better off now in so many ways compared to a century ago or a millennium ago.</faith mode>

 

[Güven]

Not Wilders and the PVV if that is what you are asking . That guy has gone completely nuts.

No, I voted for the VVD (the free-market liberals). These were European elections, so I tried to keep EU issues in mind. I am somewhat skeptical about the European Union, I think Europe needs to focus on economics and open borders. I don't want a Europe that decides issues that could just as easily be arranged locally. For example, I do not want to the EU to decide on moral issues (for example same-sex marriage, abortion, euthanasia) or social issues (minimum wage, maternity leave, social benefits, immigration).

And I consider myself fairly libertarian (I'm highly individualistic and belief that everyone has a personal path the happiness, there is no one-size-fits-all solution). So I ended up at the VVD. I also generally sympathize with D66, but for this election they were way too pro-European for my liking.

Are you Dutch also Güven?

Yes Im a "Turkish Dutchmen"

no I was just asking

I agree, VVD has good plans for the EU but it's a shame that the PVV got more votes.

I would have voted for the D66 though and they did it well in my opinion.

I hope they do better in the local elections next year.

 

[Muezzin]

If they haven't already, British readers can check local election results on this interactive map.

 

[Zafran]

Compared to Europe at that time it was indeed quite tolerant. But compared to todays standards we can most certainly not speak of it being as being "tolerant".

The fact is that as a non-Muslim you couldn't proselytize, publish your own religious works or openly practice your faith. It also also true that there were heavy restrictions on building new churches or even repairing existing ones, that their testimonies were less valuable in court than the testimonies of Muslims, that they could not marry Muslims. I am also not convinced that Jizya tax was indeed lower, in many cases it clearly was not and was even used to induce non-Muslims to convert to Islam. From a democratic point of view it is also true that non-Muslims can't have any serious say in the affairs of the state, simply because it is doctrinally absurd to allow non-Muslims a say in how to run an Islamic state.

I am sure few Muslim today would accept such restrictions. IMHO such measures would be deemed oppressive in nature.

You also say "- if that happend in the past it can easily happen in the future but far better". But how so? Islamic law on how to deal with non-Muslims is what it is, there is only so much leeway you have in interpreting it.

actually the Jizya tax was rarely used to convert people - furthermore Jews actually achieve high staus jobs under the Islamic governance (NO such thing as state) Spain and the Ottoman empire are good places to look at that and even the former Jewish houses of fez show that they were economically preety well of.

Many Jewish minorities actually went to Muslim courts rather then there own even though they had there own Jewsih courts - which clearly shows a sense Justce actually existed at the time.

Also non muslims actually governed themeselves in majority Jewish, christain areas especially under the Ottomans - they were actually left alone to create there own courts and law systems - ofcourse they had to pay the relativley low Jizya (check the millet system).

Finally Muslims have been a very tolerant and more tolerant then any other cultures for over 1000 years historically - they can easily live up to there historical legacy once again - we need positive thinking and the legacy the muslims actually left in europe which is preety tolerant one.

 

[Zafran]

The Balkans never witnessed peaceful coexistence during the Ottoman times and is today the poorest part of Europe.
Islamic spain was better than the most of Europe, but worse than today in terms of tolerance etc, Kading didn't mention non-Muslims were ordered to wear special clothes according to their religion.

specific areas such as the Caucaus christains and the Jews under Muslim rule were actually left to there own courts and way of life - They are not perfect system but were way better then anything at the time.

And your statement

during the Ottoman times and is today the poorest part of Europe.

Your forgetting something huge - Your forgetting about the soviet union/civil wars so if you want to look at the Balkans today its not directly because of the Ottomans - you just missed a huge junk out of history- the Ottomans were far more tolernat then the soviets.

I'm sure there were periods of relativley peacful co existence under the Ottomans in the Balkans - to say never is an exaggertaion. the reality is that the muslims that ruled parts of europe were far more tolerant then anyone at the time - It certainly can happen again but as i said better.

Not all were ordered to wear specific clothes some even chose there own cultural, religous clothes so they could keep the heritage.

 

[Argamemnon]

I'm sure there were periods of relativley peacful co existence under the Ottomans in the Balkans - to say never is an exaggertaion. the reality is that the muslims that ruled parts of europe were far more tolerant then anyone at the time - It certainly can happen again but as i said better.

Could you clarify what you mean by "it certainly can happen again". Are you suggesting that we (Muslims) should try and invade Europe and force our rule on them?

 

[Zafran]

Could you clarify what you mean by "it certainly can happen again". Are you suggesting that we (Muslims) should try and invade Europe and force our rule on them?

Nobody is saying that - If Islam has had a preety tolerant history then it can clearly become a tolerant and dynamic civilisation once again thats what I'm saying. What do you mean invade europe???? there are muslims citizens in europe we are part of europe now.........until the Nazis come back.

 

[Rabi'ya]

WHAT IS HAPPENING!!!!????

 

[Amadeus85]

I have voted today. But I predict that the frequence in Poland will be no bigger than 20%. People seem not to care about EU parliament despite loud media promotion.

 

[Rabi'ya]

im watching the results for UK come in via BBC and its appalling!!! How can these kind of parties be winning so many votes. people need to realise the possible future outcomes of voting in this way. I think i'm going to go to sleep and hope tomorrow is a better day

 

[Amadeus85]

what we have today, multicultural, multireligious, mutli world view etc society. You can be a devout Muslim, a devout atheist, black, gay, lesbian whatever.

Actually neither You nor me have this in our countries. Would You like Your country to be as multicultural, multiracial and multireligious as for example England, France or Holland?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Actually neither You nor me have this in our countries. Would You like Your country to be as multicultural, multiracial and multireligious as for example England, France or Holland?

Technically we have more foreigners than Britain but they're better integrated. I'd like it to be more liberal on certain issues, from what I can tell, the Nethrlands is closest to being an ideal country in that context, apart from the high number of immigrants of course.

 

[bil_sal]

I honestly think that the muslims who didnt vote in the recent EU elections share the blame for the rise of the far right parties. I posted on my blog about this issue and the rise of the BNP. Please check it out here and here

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I honestly think that the muslims who didnt vote in the recent EU elections share the blame for the rise of the far right parties. I posted on my blog about this issue and the rise of the BNP. Please check it out here and here

Even if every egligible Muslim in the UK voted they wouldn't make much too much difference.