Muslims: What are your reasons for god-belief?

[hatsoff]

How does that compare with:

Not very well. Like I said, I do not hold to any particular origin model for spacetime, nor do I even presuppose it is possible for the human brain to conceive of such a thing.

I can recall a time when Einstein speculated that matter was simply a warp or disruption in the space-time continuum and gravity was a state of being and not a force.

He presented some very strong evidence to validate his views. Yet, looking back it seems he had forgotten his own words "If you are faced with multiple explanations, the simplest one is usually the correct one."

The existence of God(swt) seems to be the simplest explanation possible. I wonder why Einstein forgot that?

How can you say that God is a simple explanation? We have invented a simple word for it--"God"--but what that word refers to is anything but simple! You're talking about a super-being with omnipotence, omniscience, anthropomorphic emotion, a sense of justice, and empathy for every human being, who continually listens to the private thoughts of every last creature on earth, and who for some reason cares deeply about our sexual habits. This is an enormous pile-up of ad-hoc assumptions with absolutely no predictive power. In short, it is no explanation at all.

 

[hatsoff]

The Holy Quran is the only required evidence and the miracle of all miracles!!!

Is this not what the Qur'an itself teaches--that its own beauty somehow proves its alleged divine origin--? So, this is what all Muslims are supposed to believe, yes?

I'm sorry, but from what I've read of your holy book, I cannot take this claim seriously. First of all, the idea that beauty can somehow prove divine origin is ridiculous in and of itself; what prevents humans from creating beauty of a certain caliber? Second, I do not find the Qur'an to be beautiful; quite the contrary, actually. And that's one of the reasons I've resisted reading very much of it in any one sitting.

No need for me to ask, you have already put yourself into that predicament and thanks for your admittance. You see Muslims don't have this problem of mystery. Everything is very clear and precise and has no room for mysteries. This is what makes Islam so appealing and beautiful and solves all mind tangles that the human experiences throughout life. Our creator has already given us the rules and tools to succeed in life with a guarantee of success.
People like yourself will always have mysteries flowing through your mind and only the acceptance of Allah SWT will free yourself of this mystery web. So I wish you all the best luck in solving your mysteries and pray that one day you will free yourself from this tangle.

I think it's strange that you find mystery so intolerable. In fact, mystery is preferable to false beliefs. If Islamic traditions offer you answers to every question you care to ask (which is hardly the case, by the way), but they are more often than not the wrong answers, how does that help you?

 

[coddles76]

Is this not what the Qur'an itself teaches--that its own beauty somehow proves its alleged divine origin--? So, this is what all Muslims are supposed to believe, yes?
I'm sorry, but from what I've read of your holy book, I cannot take this claim seriously. First of all, the idea that beauty can somehow prove divine origin is ridiculous in and of itself; what prevents humans from creating beauty of a certain caliber? Second, I do not find the Qur'an to be beautiful; quite the contrary, actually. And that's one of the reasons I've resisted reading very much of it in any one sitting

The holy Quran is a book of law and guidance which holds the keys to succes in battling through the challenges of life. It has many miraculous answers to many subjects including science and that is what is so BEAUTIFUL about it.

I think it's strange that you find mystery so intolerable. In fact, mystery is preferable to false beliefs. If Islamic traditions offer you answers to every question you care to ask (which is hardly the case, by the way), but they are more often than not the wrong answers, how does that help you?

Its only wrong when your mind fails to see reasoning and truth behind the logic so I can understand why you believe its false. I on the other hand find the answers very true and logical so have every confidence in the TRUTH.

 

[Woodrow]

Not very well. Like I said, I do not hold to any particular origin model for spacetime, nor do I even presuppose it is possible for the human brain to conceive of such a thing.

Perhaps you do not hold to any particular origin model, but it appears you have ruled out the possibility it is the creation of a Supreme Being.

How can you say that God is a simple explanation? We have invented a simple word for it--"God"--but what that word refers to is anything but simple! You're talking about a super-being with omnipotence, omniscience, anthropomorphic emotion, a sense of justice, and empathy for every human being, who continually listens to the private thoughts of every last creature on earth, and who for some reason cares deeply about our sexual habits. This is an enormous pile-up of ad-hoc assumptions with absolutely no predictive power. In short, it is no explanation at all.

While it may be impossible to explain how God(swt) can exist. His creating the world would be a very simple explanation as to how the material universe came into existence.

Sort of like if you have a pet gold fish. I doubt the Gold fish could explain how you exist, but accepting your existence would be a very simple explanation as to how the water in the bowl gets changed.

 

[Khalil_Allah]

I was atheist and I was straight up interested in God, like you. I wondered why all these christians around me could just believe in Jesus and God when there was no proof. You got all these old stories and whatnot and just what does it matter in 2009?

But I also found that some of the realest and most virtuous people had this unwavering faith in God. People I really respected for intelligence and character, and somehow they bought into this whole God thing.

At a confused point in my life, one of these people advised me to just go talk to God and go seek God, and He won't let me down. I did and things happened that were proof enough for me that God had heard me. Since then, God has never let me down when I needed it. Or, for you non-believers, since then, whenever I have went to God for any reason, the world and the things and people in it have acted and arranged themselves in a way that gave me clarity and wisdom on the issue.

The doctrine, the belief in the Qur'an and Islam, came when I tried to fit my new belief in God into some sort of conceptual framework. I studied various religions and when I tried to apply the doctrine in my life, I came into contradictions with my experiences with God. With Islam, I never found contradictions that could not be easily resolved.

 

[Tony]

No. I have no evidence regarding specific hypotheses on the origin of spacetime itself. But I do know that the physical universe exists. Postulating the existence of other realities, e.g. God, is an amusing exercise, but does not get us anywhere.

how do you know this, what is it that makes you think there is a physical universe. What proof can you offer that there is any connection between the make up of atoms, what binding force do you beleive holds an unstable and potentially volatile mix of chemicals in order. What happened that made these gases and chemicals develop conscious ability. Or is it that you beleive what someone else tells you and that you personally have no proof of anything other than the brain is a computer that holds a chaotic world in shaky focus. We beleive that Allah created all, holds all in balance and breathed the spark of life into his creation. Now really which is more likely to be the truth and the least far fetched. Peace

 

[hatsoff]

how do you know this, what is it that makes you think there is a physical universe. What proof can you offer that there is any connection between the make up of atoms, what binding force do you beleive holds an unstable and potentially volatile mix of chemicals in order. What happened that made these gases and chemicals develop conscious ability. Or is it that you beleive what someone else tells you and that you personally have no proof of anything other than the brain is a computer that holds a chaotic world in shaky focus.

I will answer your question, but I must first ask, what relevance does it have? Suppose we could not justify a conclusion that the universe exists. So what? How does that demonstrate the existence of God?

Anyway, here is the answer: The conclusion that the universe exists is well-supported by our sense data, insofar as the assumption of the conclusion leads to correctly-predicted sense experience.

We beleive that Allah created all, holds all in balance and breathed the spark of life into his creation. Now really which is more likely to be the truth and the least far fetched. Peace

I know that you believe it, and I thank you for the affirmation. However, I'm more interested in how you have come to conclude that it is so likely.

 

[Tony]

it is the same for us both, my point was to point out that my beleif comes from logic process too.

 

[Hamayun]

Then I repeat my invitation to share with me this evidence you think you have for the existence of your supernatural creator-deity.

Since you are convinced God does not exist could you kindly share with us your evidence for the non-existence of a supernatural creator-deity.

Note: A popular theory doesn't pass as evidence.

Peace

 

[Yanal]

Here are my reasons as a Muslim to believe in All worthy Allah:
The Quran
The prophets
Hadiths
And the truthness of Islam.

 

[islamlover_girl]

Hello Mr Hatsoff ,
so the question is why we belive in Allah?

I think u may have some answeres in this link
http://www.islamreligion.com/category/39/

 

[transition?]

I loved everything I learned about Islam.

I accepted the concept of the soul because it makes sense to why we have desires that we follow but can be so irrational at times. Certain things that we associate with happiness is predetermined by our genes, our innate nature. What's the evolutionary significance of wanting something and having it so much that it's unhealthy. Why are we programmed to love sugar and fatty foods to the point we're sick. ? Why are we programmed to love doing things all the time and not just in healthy times. Why do so many people enjoy things that are detrimental like procrastination and lyignaround or having sex 24/7. Because we have souls that have programmed to be inclined to specific desires. If it was human evolution, genes for laziness, procrastination and lack of self control would be wiped.

the other day I was wondering abt nature and I thought is there any imperfection in nature? You
know those crazy math profesors who say the unverse is just mathematical patterns. I believe in
that and the fact that everything runs so smoothly doesn't seem random. The order in life doesn't
seem like a coincident. Even when i think of diseases or genetic mutations, thy aren't accidents or
mistakes - they are specific processes. Things seem beyond us because we can't predict them but
they are so calculated. Even in a chemcal reaction, it's supposedly chance that makes certain
molecules rearrange at a point when they are so oriented. Things don't seem random, by chance.




But the biggest confirmation was the taqwa ( i think it's called), when you sincerely and seriously believe in tawhid, or the oneness of Allah (swt) and try to acheive taqwa, constant remembrance of Allah by knowing you want to Obey Allah (swt) over any desire- it is this feeling so great, so lifting , so right, so peaceful.. I'm the biggest and worrisome skeptic, that everything changed after my 1st moment like that.

If you really want to learn anything from this thread it's to know that that feeling is the reason most believe in God, more over science.
That feeling is what you seriously want to find with the most sincerity that will reallly allow you to know why God exists.

Why do we care about happiness

 

[hatsoff]

Since you are convinced God does not exist could you kindly share with us your evidence for the non-existence of a supernatural creator-deity.

Note: A popular theory doesn't pass as evidence.

Which deity would you like me to disprove? The God of Islam, who created the human species in more or less its modern form, is contradicted by the large body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity. Certain formulations of the Trinitarian God are disproved logically by their own internal inconsistencies.

Most gods are simply unverifiable, fantastic constructs, with no good evidence for or against them. These we dismiss via Occam's razor.

 

[Vito]

I think the evolution thread would be a good place to check out concerning that, which I assume you haven't yet. I'll try to find it for you in a minute.

Here you go: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/6570-biological-evolution-islamic-perspective.html

 

[Woodrow]

Which deity would you like me to disprove? The God of Islam, who created the human species in more or less its modern form, is contradicted by the large body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity. Certain formulations of the Trinitarian God are disproved logically by their own internal inconsistencies.

Most gods are simply unverifiable, fantastic constructs, with no good evidence for or against them. These we dismiss via Occam's razor.

You seem to have the idea that matter popping out of nowhere makes more sense then believing it was created by a being who exists outside the physical world.

Us theists believe that the idea of creation by a being makes more logical sense then believing it popped out of nowhere.

Your concept is just as ridiculous to us as our concept is to you.

 

[hatsoff]

You seem to have the idea that matter popping out of nowhere makes more sense then believing it was created by a being who exists outside the physical world.

Us theists believe that the idea of creation by a being makes more logical sense then believing it popped out of nowhere.

Your concept is just as ridiculous to us as our concept is to you.

Except it is not my concept. I do not believe that the universe "popped out of nowhere." I hope you don't think that is the only alternative to theism.

The universe, according to general relativity, has always existed--that is, the universe exists at any point in the time domain. The time domain itself may or may not extend infinitely in both directions. The explanation for the hypothetical existence of a value inf{t} (where t denotes time) is not known. It could be that there exist other spacial-temporal dimensions which give rise to daughter dimensions, of which ours is one such. We just don't know.

Incidentally, I find the hypothesis most resembling your "popping out of nowhere" caricature--that our universe just happened to exist, independent of any ontologically prior reality--considerably less fantastic than that it was created by an anthropomorphic spirit being using his supposed super-powers.

 

[Woodrow]

Except it is not my concept. I do not believe that the universe "popped out of nowhere." I hope you don't think that is the only alternative to theism.

The universe, according to general relativity, has always existed--that is, the universe exists at any point in the time domain. The time domain itself may or may not extend infinitely in both directions. The explanation for the hypothetical existence of a value inf{t} (where t denotes time) is not known. It could be that there exist other spacial-temporal dimensions which give rise to daughter dimensions, of which ours is one such. We just don't know.

I am also a fan of Dr. Einstein and find his General Theory to be quite interesting.

However, I think the area that has come under disagreement is that his concept of warped space'continuum as the basis for the formation of matter, ends up being matter popped out of nowhere.

Incidentally, I find the hypothesis most resembling your "popping out of nowhere" caricature--that our universe just happened to exist, independent of any ontologically prior reality--considerably less fantastic than that it was created by an anthropomorphic spirit being using his supposed super-powers.

This basically breaks down to being our own personal opinions. Probably all we can do is agree to disagree peacefully

 

[Hamayun]

Which deity would you like me to disprove? The God of Islam, who created the human species in more or less its modern form, is contradicted by the large body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity. Certain formulations of the Trinitarian God are disproved logically by their own internal inconsistencies.

Most gods are simply unverifiable, fantastic constructs, with no good evidence for or against them. These we dismiss via Occam's razor.

Ummm... how does that answer anything??? :?

I am not asking you to disprove a specific deity...

All I am asking for is evidence that the universe with all its complexity, majesty, splendour and delicate balance was not created.

 

[hatsoff]

Ummm... how does that answer anything??? :?

I am not asking you to disprove a specific deity...

All I am asking for is evidence that the universe with all its complexity, majesty, splendour and delicate balance was not created.

I answered your previous question. Now I will answer your latest:

For an intelligent being to create spacetime, then he must have existed ontologically prior to it. But the only intelligent agents we have ever observed depend directly on chemical operations in a material brain. So, it would be impossible for such an intelligence to create spacetime. You could postulate the existence of a disembodied mind which operates on a nonmaterial substrate, but we have no good evidence at all for such an entity. So we dismiss that alternative hypothesis via Occam's razor.

There you are.

 

[hatsoff]

I am also a fan of Dr. Einstein and find his General Theory to be quite interesting.

However, I think the area that has come under disagreement is that his concept of warped space'continuum as the basis for the formation of matter, ends up being matter popped out of nowhere.

Nothing of the sort is implied by general relativity. I have no idea where you picked up that misinformation.

This basically breaks down to being our own personal opinions. Probably all we can do is agree to disagree peacefully

It's not a matter of opinion at all. Truth is objectively determined by real states of affairs. And the truth, here, is that we have no good evidence for the existence of a disembodied mind who created the universe with his supernatural powers.