(MUST SEE VIDEO) Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

[HeiGou]

heigou working for peace? thats news to me..but I'm 100% certain you werent working for a JUST PEACE.

I protested in the streets demanding a return of all refugees. That is what I called a just peace. I have of course changed my mind.

anyways why do seem to justify house bulldozing?

I think that the West is at war with the Muslim world. It has become clear to me that this is a Clash of Civilisations. I think that house bulldozings are not nice, but they are better than cutting someone's throat and putting the video on the internet.

give me one good reason why israeli troops bulldoze entlire buldings thus making loads of palestinians homeless?

It is hard to punish suicide bombers. For some reason the Israelis think this is a way of punishing their families. How would you punish suicide bombers if Christians started doing it to Muslims?

 

[Hawa]

Re: Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

I do not know what it is but I do know it is not oppression. The East Timorese suffering vastly more than the Palestinians have but they did not strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves up in coffee shops.

How can an adult of sound mind argue whether suicide bombs aimed at children are wrong or right? And you criticise me.

You do have an answer to everything dont you? I did not say suicide bombing is closely related to Islam, I said that you Heigou despite being a constant in an Islamic forum hate everything and anything that is closely related to Islam. Thats the only reason why you argue about the Palestinian situation. You talk about the children killed by suicide bombers how about the thousand arab children killed over the past few decades, the past two weeks alone and hundreds of children have been targeted, all's fair in love and war, thats their policy... you obviously have no qualms about their actions yet you still stand here and criticise a hopeless nation that has no other way of defending itself against oppression...you argue of suicide bombing as if it occurs everyday, which side is more constant in their wrongdoings?

For years this violence has gone on and the West has payed for Palestinians. They have paid for their schools, for their government, for their food. They sit in refugees camps because the West gives them money to do so. They have the highest birth rate in the world because the West pays for their children. If the West had not paid those camps would not exist and the Palestinians would have been absorbed into the Arab countries by now.

Ask yourself how long the West is going to go on giving money to Hamas while Hamas supports terrorism against the West.

Sure. Unless of course we try for something new and different. Like a just solution in the Middle East that does not involve anyone being killed.

But no, the Palestinians have consistently preferred the easy violent option.

The west pays for refugee camps...you make it sound as if they're doing the Palestinians a favour! the west supports the very nation that put those Palestinians out of their homes and into refugee camps! No matter how you look at this Heigou theres only one criminal here and thats Israel! You can try and justify their actions as many times as you'de like, but thats the damn truth! With that attitude im not surprised the Palestinians didnt like you! and you speak of a just solution in the middle east...what a joke

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

You do have an answer to everything dont you?

Alas no but I would not believe what I believe without good reasons. At least to me.

I did not say suicide bombing is closely related to Islam, I said that you Heigou despite being a constant in an Islamic forum hate everything and anything that is closely related to Islam.

Despite? How about because? I came here in good faith but there is a constant drip of hatred. Now when it comes to Palestine I still think there is good reason for that. But the problem is still that hatred. As unpleasant as the Israeli are, they do not want to cut my throat. That makes them better in my eyes to Hamas.

Thats the only reason why you argue about the Palestinian situation. You talk about the children killed by suicide bombers how about the thousand arab children killed over the past few decades, the past two weeks alone and hundreds of children have been targeted, all's fair in love and war, thats their policy...

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Israel targets children. Some children have died and that is terrible but there is no comparison between what a legal government does accidentally and what a bunch of terrorists do deliberately. I reject even the idea you could compare the two.

you obviously have no qualms about their actions yet you still stand here and criticise a hopeless nation that has no other way of defending itself against oppression...you argue of suicide bombing as if it occurs everyday, which side is more constant in their wrongdoings?

I disagree with that utterly. Palestinians have a wealth of options. They have consistently chosen the easy path of violence. As Abba Ebban once said, and God knows I appreciate the truth of it now, the Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance. Let's compare them with the East Timorese who suffered vastly more dead than the Palestinians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_timor#The_Indonesians

From 1975 until 1993, attacks on civilian populations were only nominally reported in the Western press. Death tolls reported during the occupation varied from 60,000 to 200,000[3]. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission on Reception, Truth and Reconciliation of Timor-Leste cited a lower range of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974-1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 'excess' deaths from hunger and illness.[4] Since each data source used under-reports actual deaths, this is considered a minimum. Amnesty International estimated deaths at 200,000[​

And there are only just under a million of them today.

By way of comparison just over 1100 Palestinians died in the first Intefada and over 4000 in the Second. So we are dealing with twenty times the casualty rate in a population one tenth the size.

Yet East Timor is free and Palestine is not. It is not that the East Timorese did not use violence, it is that they were smart and sought support in the West as well. Palestinians have tried this - and got the Oslo Accords - but they have rejected that as well.

The west pays for refugee camps...you make it sound as if they're doing the Palestinians a favour! the west supports the very nation that put those Palestinians out of their homes and into refugee camps! No matter how you look at this Heigou theres only one criminal here and thats Israel! You can try and justify their actions as many times as you'de like, but thats the damn truth! With that attitude im not surprised the Palestinians didnt like you! and you speak of a just solution in the middle east...what a joke

I agree that pushing those people into camps was wrong, but it was very nice of the West to fund and go on funding those camps. The Palestinian issue would be dead if they did not. You will notice I am very careful about which acts I defend and which I do not. That attitude is a result of them not liking me. People who hate me and my way of life cannot expect my support. I do not believe that any Just solution exists now. What is more I think that a victory for Hamas would endanger my life. They have made their choices. I have made mine.

 

[scentsofjannah]

Since you came on this board you have justified every wrong action of Israel

so you don't think any palestinians refugees have ANY right to return to their towns and villages

and you think Israel's house bulldozing is justfied.

I know why you are so pro-Israel no matter if what it does is right or wrong..its because of your intense loathing of Islam..the enemy of my enemy is my friend..you go by that motto.

btw are you chinese..? most chinese people ive met are good moral people..they dont sound anything like you ..(assuming you are indeed chinese)

if not then disregard the last paragraph.

 

[HeiGou]

Since you came on this board you have justified every wrong action of Israel

That is utterly not true.

so you don't think any palestinians refugees have ANY right to return to their towns and villages

Actually I do think they have a right to do so, it is just that implementing that right would mean the destruction of Israel. Which I could live with as it happens - except that any victory for the radicals would embolden them further. Islamic extremism must be defeated. It cannot be allowed to have a single victory anywhere in the world. Let the Muslims reject suicide bombs, reject violence and accept the possibility of co-existence with non-Muslims on the basis of equality, mutual respect and tolerance, and then I'll go back to defending the rights of the Palestinians. Why do you think I should help people murder me?

and you think Israel's house bulldozing is justfied.

I don't know where you get that from.

I know why you are so pro-Israel no matter if what it does is right or wrong..its because of your intense loathing of Islam..the enemy of my enemy is my friend..you go by that motto.

Not Islam, but the Islamic radicals. And yes, basically, as bad as Israel is Hamas, which claims the right to rule Europe, is worse. I'll side with Israel any day of the week.

btw are you chinese..? most chinese people ive met are good moral people..they dont sound anything like you ..(assuming you are indeed chinese)

And yet China does not have a problem with Islamic extremists because they just shoot anyone they think supports the radicals or terrorism. Why is it that there is such intense hatred of the West here? I can sort of understand why you do not care when hundreds of thousands of Muslims are killed by other Muslims, but do you have any idea what China does in Xinjiang?

 

[Hawa]

Re: Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

Despite? How about because? I came here in good faith but there is a constant drip of hatred. Now when it comes to Palestine I still think there is good reason for that. But the problem is still that hatred. As unpleasant as the Israeli are, they do not want to cut my throat. That makes them better in my eyes to Hamas.

do you honestly think you do not warrant the "constant drip of hatred"? NO the Israelis do not wish to cut your throat, they'de much rather brainwash you into supporting their criminal activities..Hamas on the other hand..oh yes forget about fighting for freedom lets go slit Heigou's throat... You seem to know a bit about the Palestinian situation tell me why was Hamas set up exactly?

I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Israel targets children. Some children have died and that is terrible but there is no comparison between what a legal government does accidentally and what a bunch of terrorists do deliberately. I reject even the idea you could compare the two.

A Red Cross doctor, Jacques de Reynier, chief representative of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Jerusalem gave a shocking account of the massacre in his official report.
De Reynier arrived at the village on the second day and saw “the mopping up,” as one of the Israeli terrorists put it to him. It had been done with machine guns, then grenades, and was finished off with knives. The Jews decapitated some of the victims and fatally maimed 52 children in sight of their mothers. They cut open 25 pregnant women’s wombs and butchered the babies in front of them.
Israelis present at Deir Yassin have confirmed these atrocities.

this is an example of those "accidents" you speak of..theres no comparing what a few suicide bombers can do against what an entire army of criminals are doing in a daily basis.. you just cannot compare the two!

I disagree with that utterly. Palestinians have a wealth of options. They have consistently chosen the easy path of violence. As Abba Ebban once said, and God knows I appreciate the truth of it now, the Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance. Let's compare them with the East Timorese who suffered vastly more dead than the Palestinians

a wealth of options = leave your land. I guess the Palestinians should be grateful their situation no matter how awful, is much better than the East Timorese..they should celebrate should they?

Yet East Timor is free and Palestine is not.

finally some truth from you, they arent free...ok great, the International community is doing nothing to help them..how on earth are they expected to sit and not retaliate against the Israelis?

It is not that the East Timorese did not use violence, it is that they were smart and sought support in the West as well.

The west is out to look for their own best interest..and that lies in Israel, this problem has been going on for decades and decades if indeed the west was interested in peace in the middle east a solution would have been found a long time ago.

What is more I think that a victory for Hamas would endanger my life. They have made their choices. I have made mine.

see for yourself..
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/07/qana-massacre-see-for-yourself.html

Israel has made its choice and yours is to support them. good luck

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

do you honestly think you do not warrant the "constant drip of hatred"? NO the Israelis do not wish to cut your throat, they'de much rather brainwash you into supporting their criminal activities..Hamas on the other hand..oh yes forget about fighting for freedom lets go slit Heigou's throat... You seem to know a bit about the Palestinian situation tell me why was Hamas set up exactly?

No I do not. I look at the 7-7 bombs and I cannot see any justification for them at all. I look at a lot of the violence in Iraq and I cannot see any justification at all. I have not been brainwashed by Israel. I have spent most of my adult life opposing everything they do. But their enemies have chosen to be my enemies. I realise that Hamas is fighting for freedom but that is not all they are fighting for. They want to rule the West too. They think they will. My support for their freedom stops at my enslavement. Hamas was set up to push for an Islamic state and to weaken the PLO - or at least that last one is why the Israelis funded it. What's your point?

You demonstrate it is safe for me to support the Palestinian cause and I will support it again.

this is an example of those "accidents" you speak of..theres no comparing what a few suicide bombers can do against what an entire army of criminals are doing in a daily basis.. you just cannot compare the two!

So you have to reach back to 1947 to find an example of Jewish fighters killing children? Please correct me if I am wrong. Daily basis? Not for some time.

a wealth of options = leave your land. I guess the Palestinians should be grateful their situation no matter how awful, is much better than the East Timorese..they should celebrate should they?

That is one option which many took in 1948. I would not recommend it myself. I think that supporters of the Palestinian cause ought to have a sense of proportion, but even that is not important. They need to ask themselves not if what they are doing is right, because justification can always be found, but if it is effective - will it work. It has for the East Timorese. I don't see it working for the Palestinians just yet.

finally some truth from you, they arent free...ok great, the International community is doing nothing to help them..how on earth are they expected to sit and not retaliate against the Israelis?

The International community is doing a lot for them - giving them vast amounts of money for one thing. Supporting Palestinian statehood for another. Forcing Israel to take part in the Oslo accords for another. But now that is all gone. Blown up on 9-11. What makes you think there are only two options - nothing or "retaliation"? There are a host of other alternatives some of which might work. Even if you opt for the retaliation, why pick the method supported by al-Qaeda? Everyone thinks there is no difference now. Even if you want to carry out suicide attacks, why burn every single bridge with the West you can? The Palestinians have painted themselves into a corner. Don't blame me for that.

The west is out to look for their own best interest..and that lies in Israel, this problem has been going on for decades and decades if indeed the west was interested in peace in the middle east a solution would have been found a long time ago.

But it doesn't. Israel gives the West nothing but headaches. There is no interest there. It takes two to make peace. You cannot deny that the West was putting pressure on Israel. The West, especially the Europeans, had decided that the Palestinians needed a state. There was a process underway that would have given them one too. But of course Islamic radicalism killed that idea.

Israel has made its choice and yours is to support them. good luck

Indeed. But in a Clash of Civilisations there is no choice. Besides, I would rather Hezbollah killed people in Galilee than in London.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Dear Holiness,

The Catholic Community Forum has been the most tolerant and patient with me and that gives me great hope that it is reflective and continues to be reflective of the church. I have posted the following discussion on the Catholic Community Forum at: http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=85838#post85838

CCF:

Thank you for your guidance and patience as I am truly grappling with the enormity and power of the question I posed. No doubt I error in so many ways. It burdens my heart to ponder these weighty questions and saddens me greatly to pose them publicly.


What if the flaw in all our responses, including the responses of the church, is to grasp so tightly to the shelter and safety and comfort of our own dogma that even the church itself can not be in the world with outsiders to our faith, ever?



What do I mean by this, "even the church itself can not be in the world with outsiders to our faith, ever?"



Help me know my errors.



Tasking the church at the highest level, tasking the Pope himself from, may I refer to this task as the Great Encouragement?



Here is the enormity of this depressing question. When the power of the website itself begins forth thousands, then tens of thousands, then millions, then tens of millions, then billions of similar responses in sending in Notes of Encouragement to religious leaders, the church then is faced with a choice. How the church reacts to that choice is the question.



What preconditions must be satisfied to enable the church to accept the enormous task encouraged upon it by the petition raised through the website?



His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has laid out one level of guidance which helps, "spiritual emulation, " respectful of each one's identity and more united in the service of common good"



In the interest of the "common good" referred to by Pope, may I extrapolate?



The Muslim will enter such discussions for the common good with the predisposition of understanding which he will be certain of, that Christ (may his name be praised) has not been proven divine and perhaps also the Muslim will feel the Holy Trinity makes no sense; it is the Christian that must come to change.


The Christian will enter such discussions for the common good with the predisposition of understanding which he will be certain of, that Mohammad (may his name be praised) has not enabled a religion of love, that he was a sinner of the highest order, a mortal spirit; it is the Muslim that must come to change.


If our Christian faith is a faith based on love, then isn't our required response posed by the enormity of the question and the task posed through the Great Encouragement, to forgive the Muslim and accept him as our brother, and treat him as such, for the common good?



I have come to the conclusion that God's larger plan for man is to recognize the good in each other and work with that. I guess the question I ask is simply, if I can do this, if billions of other ordinary people can do this, then can and will the Pope speak for this man (me) and do this too?

Rich Buckley
A visiting Methodist
Livermore, CA

 

[Hawa]

Heigou.. it seems we'll go at this for a very long time. You seem to think highly of yourself if you really believe anyone actually views you as an enemy worthy of being "enslaved", Hamas are otherwise occupied with more important stuff. Desperate times calls for desperate measures..you may sit in the comfort of your own home and judge their actions it will not change a damn thing.. war will continue in the middle east, more blood will be shed and more than likely it will be muslim blood.

 

[searchingsoul]

Re: Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

They have the highest birth rate in the world because the West pays for their children. If the West had not paid those camps would not exist and the Palestinians would have been absorbed into the Arab countries by now.

IMO this is clearly wrong!+o( +o( +o(

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Lamaggad,,the majority of the Ummah is always with our brother and sister.

those hyprocrites say "we are only working for peace,but theya re the mischeif maker"

Inshallah we shall all be acoutnable for our action.

Allah is the MOST JUST.

I declare that there is no god BUT ALLAH and Muhammad saw is a Prophet.

 

[Skillganon]

Salaam,

Lamaggad,,the majority of the Ummah is always with our brother and sister.

those hyprocrites say "we are only working for peace,but theya re the mischeif maker"

Inshallah we shall all be acoutnable for our action.

Allah is the MOST JUST.

I declare that there is no god BUT ALLAH and Muhammad saw is a Prophet.

Ameen.

IS their a second part to the video?