My argument for the atheists

[brmm]

Peace for you,


I wrote this thread because I wish to share with the atheist members their ideas/thinking about God and man's creation.
I will put my argument as questions:
1. Since our world with its amazing details, creations, complications, harmonization (MUST) be made by someone his name is (The Nature or Allah or God or The Father or XYZ), why the atheist don’t worship this creator ?

2. Since the atheist do not believe in The Paradise and The Hell, since they are made by our God as He told us through His messengers, can the atheist kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat his children for lunch?
If the answer was: (NO), then I will say it does not make sense at all for the atheist because he does not believe in the punishment (Hell)/ rewards (Paradise) system which is made by God, and we, the believers of different faiths, have been taught the human morals from God only.

I will appreciate to hear your kind opinions.

BRMM

 

[Trumble]

I wrote this thread because I wish to share with the atheist members their ideas/thinking about God and man's creation.
I will put my argument as questions:

Try putting your 'argument' as an argument instead. Putting it as 'questions' is just an indicator you don't really have one. You need to supply the strongest atheist responses (NOT 'strawmen'), and explain why you think they might be wrong.

1. Since our world with its amazing details, creations, complications, harmonization (MUST) be made by someone his name is (The Nature or Allah or God or The Father or XYZ), why the atheist don’t worship this creator ?

And all the pain, suffering, disease, cruelty.... but let's not get too sidetracked. WHY 'must' it?! That's an unsupported statement, not an argument. Atheists do not agree, hence they see no need to acknowledge the existence of such a creator. Even if they did, you would need to provide a further justification for 'worship'. Such non-agreement does not necessarily involve 'science'; there were atheists long before cosmology, evolution and all the rest of it. My own religion has seen no need for such a 'creator' for two and a half-thousand years.

2. Since the atheist do not believe in The Paradise and The Hell, since they are made by our God as He told us through His messengers, can the atheist kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat his children for lunch?

Of course not. But who are you addressing this to? As atheists do not believe in God, there obviously can be no messages from God as far as they are concerned.

If the answer was: (NO), then I will say it does not make sense at all for the atheist because he does not believe in the punishment (Hell)/ rewards (Paradise) system which is made by God, and we, the believers of different faiths, have been taught the human morals from God only.

It makes perfect sense. You are assuming, wrongly, that such morality can only come in the form of dictat from God, and be enforceable by promise (Heaven) and threat (Hell). Again, atheists would disagree. Practical moral systems have resulted from philosophical argument (and indeed simple collective self-interest) which are are just a comprehensive and usually far more consistent than anything supposed to be from God, and that rely on reason not carrot and stick.

 

[M.I.A.]

atheism works on proofs, having proof of creation and how things work.
unfortunately all proofs are man made, we discover how chemicals react and how the universe works.. atheism only believes in man/self and what its capable of.

morality is subjective,
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

you can learn every rule and definition of morality, but putting it into practice is a different thing.. the world is not a moral place, its not "how it works"

this is why our religion believes in the afterlife, so that we can try and remain moral in this world.

i think brmm is entitled to ask questions without being dismissed as a strawman, after all i have seen people write more and say less.

Try putting your 'argument' as an argument instead. Putting it as 'questions' is just an indicator you don't really have one. You need to supply the strongest atheist responses (NOT 'strawmen'), and explain why you think they might be wrong.



And all the pain, suffering, disease, cruelty.... but let's not get too sidetracked. WHY 'must' it?! That's an unsupported statement, not an argument. Atheists do not agree, hence they see no need to acknowledge the existence of such a creator. Even if they did, you would need to provide a further justification for 'worship'. Such non-agreement does not necessarily involve 'science'; there were atheists long before cosmology, evolution and all the rest of it. My own religion has seen no need for such a 'creator' for two and a half-thousand years.

something of debateable value is the age of your religion, if you walked for 2500 years you would probably not be in the same place as you started.

Of course not. But who are you addressing this to? As atheists do not believe in God, there obviously can be no messages from God as far as they are concerned.



It makes perfect sense. You are assuming, wrongly, that such morality can only come in the form of dictat from God, and be enforceable by promise (Heaven) and threat (Hell). Again, atheists would disagree. Practical moral systems have resulted from philosophical argument (and indeed simple collective self-interest) which are are just a comprehensive and usually far more consistent than anything supposed to be from God, and that rely on reason not carrot and stick.

well lets remove the afterlife from the equation, its the threat of poverty that removes men from being reasonable, it is the threat of violence that removes men from there senses. it is the very basis of the world, forget the afterlife its every man for himself.. im not sure how this would effect morality or even our words and actions in any given situation, before the thought of its moral consequences have been understood.

 

[Pygoscelis]

2. Since the atheist do not believe in The Paradise and The Hell, since they are made by our God as He told us through His messengers, can the atheist kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat his children for lunch?
If the answer was: (NO), then I will say it does not make sense at all for the atheist because he does not believe in the punishment (Hell)/ rewards (Paradise) system which is made by God, and we, the believers of different faiths, have been taught the human morals from God only.

Whenever I see this question asked in earnest by a believer, I fear we have a sociopath in our midst. It is pretty terrifying if you think about it. Is fear of God seriously the only reason you don't "kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat children for lunch? " You have no actual morality? Just obedience to power (God)? I find that very hard to believe.

One major issue I've always had with abrahamic religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) is that they so frequently appear to confuse obedience to power for morality. They are not the same thing. Authoritarianism is not goddness. It can lead to attrocity just as easily as to charity.

 

[Pygoscelis]

1. Since our world with its amazing details, creations, complications, harmonization (MUST) be made by someone his name is (The Nature or Allah or God or The Father or XYZ), why the atheist don’t worship this creator ?

On first reading I dismissed this as a dishonest question, as it should be obvious that an atheist doesn't believe in Gods. That's why we call them atheists. But then it dawned on me that Brmm is probably one of the theists who doesn't believe atheists exist and that we all just pretend to in some sort of denial or something. I think some theists need to believe this because to aknowledge that there are people who doubt their most fundamental belief threatens their own faith. Just a theory.

 

[Perseveranze]

Whenever I see this question asked in earnest by a believer, I fear we have a sociopath in our midst. It is pretty terrifying if you think about it. Is fear of God seriously the only reason you don't "kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat children for lunch? " You have no actual morality? Just obedience to power (God)? I find that very hard to believe.

One major issue I've always had with abrahamic religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) is that they so frequently appear to confuse obedience to power for morality. They are not the same thing. Authoritarianism is not goddness. It can lead to attrocity just as easily as to charity.

So can social pressure, which is something i'd see Athiests follow due to no guidelines on morality. I mean, lets take Germany in ww2 for example, it was social pressure at the time to capture or kill the jews. What i'm saying is, in a situation like this, when Social pressure tends to conflict a religious teaching, then you would have alot more hesitancy from the religious believers, as compared to the Athiests, who at the end of the day, could see the same benefit the Germans were seeing. The Soviet is another example of a disaster.

The only arguement i've seen from Athiests on "morality" is based upon evolutionary history, which I find weak.

 

[M.I.A.]

On first reading I dismissed this as a dishonest question, as it should be obvious that an atheist doesn't believe in Gods. That's why we call them atheists. But then it dawned on me that Brmm is probably one of the theists who doesn't believe atheists exist and that we all just pretend to in some sort of denial or something. I think some theists need to believe this because to aknowledge that there are people who doubt their most fundamental belief threatens their own faith. Just a theory.

iv been to places were i was sure that under the skin of personality something else was hidden, by choice.
even if it has nothing to do with god, it has something to do with personal experience..it makes us who we are but only superficially

..and im not talking about superman syndrome, but compassion and empathy were there was none before.

 

[Trumble]

atheism works on proofs, having proof of creation and how things work.

No, it doesn't as I thought I had made clear. Obviously attempts have been made to prove God does not exist through argumentation, but no more than those attempting to prove the opposite. Neither succeed.

unfortunately all proofs are man made, we discover how chemicals react and how the universe works.. atheism only believes in man/self and what its capable of.

Atheism is the belief that that there is no God. It has nothing to do with mankind and his/her capabilities.

morality is subjective,
1.
existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).
2.
pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3.
placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Theists do not believe morality is subjective. Buddhists don't believe it. And perhaps the most influential philosophical theory of morality, Kant's, doesn't think it is either.

you can learn every rule and definition of morality, but putting it into practice is a different thing.. the world is not a moral place, its not "how it works"

this is why our religion believes in the afterlife, so that we can try and remain moral in this world.

Again, I don't see what your point is. You are merely repeating that morality can only be enforced by 'carrot and stick', rather than good reason. Atheists do not agree. Even if they did, I would have thought earthly reward and punishment was a far greater incentive for compliance.

i think brmm is entitled to ask questions without being dismissed as a strawman, after all i have seen people write more and say less.

My bad, I can see it reads like that. What I was trying to do was suggest how an argument should be presented, including the rejection of strawmen. I didn't mean to suggest brmm had used a strawman argument, so my apologies.

something of debateable value is the age of your religion, if you walked for 2500 years you would probably not be in the same place as you started.

Er, what ??

 

[Pygoscelis]

So can social pressure, which is something i'd see Athiests follow due to no guidelines on morality. I mean, lets take Germany in ww2 for example, it was social pressure at the time to capture or kill the jews.

Gott Mit Uns? (which translates to "God with us" and was standard issue on Nazi belt buckles)

That social pressure exists WITHIN religions as much as it does outside of religion, indeed more so. Adherence to organized religion is such a social pressure, with built in systems to keep adherents, such as concepts of heaven and hell, as well as blasphemy laws, commands to shame (or even kill) apostates etc.

Why do you think Hitler used "Gott Mit Uns" and other religious themes? Why do you think others like him do the same, employing religion to their ends? How do you think cults like Jim Jones or the Heaven's Gate cult got their followers (which included some pretty intelligent and otherwise sane people) to commit mass suicide? Religion is powerful with these social forces you speak of.

Atheists do not simply follow social pressure and dictate, as you seem to be saying the religious do (only by calling it God and holy scripture). Empathy also plays a role. And I think though they may deny it, empathy also plays a role within the minds of the religious.

If your holy book or prophet told you to fly planes into buildings or kill your son or slaughter your neighbours, would you do it?

And it is no answer to say "My book doesn't say anything liike that!" or to deny any part of it that does something like that as taken out of context or figurative or whatever. If you would NOT do any such thing then your sense of empathy and actual morality (rather than obedience to a book or prophet or other social force) is speaking to you.

It is there within any of us who are not sociopaths, no matter how hard one may try to bury it. It is explained by evolution and it is evidenced by neurology. I recommend "The Selfish Gene" for the former and the now large amount of research on mirror neurons for the latter.

 

[M.I.A.]

Gott Mit Uns? (which translates to "God with us" and was standard issue on Nazi belt buckles)

That social pressure exists WITHIN religions as much as it does outside of religion, indeed more so. Adherence to organized religion is such a social pressure, with built in systems to keep adherents, such as concepts of heaven and hell, as well as blasphemy laws, commands to shame (or even kill) apostates etc.

Why do you think Hitler used "Gott Mit Uns" and other religious themes? Why do you think others like him do the same, employing religion to their ends? How do you think cults like Jim Jones or the Heaven's Gate cult got their followers (which included some pretty intelligent and otherwise sane people) to commit mass suicide? Religion is powerful with these social forces you speak of.

Atheists do not simply follow social pressure and dictate, as you seem to be saying the religious do (only by calling it God and holy scripture). Empathy also plays a role. And I think though they may deny it, empathy also plays a role within the minds of the religious.

If your holy book or prophet told you to fly planes into buildings or kill your son or slaughter your neighbours, would you do it?

And it is no answer to say "My book doesn't say anything liike that!" or to deny any part of it that does something like that as taken out of context or figurative or whatever. If you would NOT do any such thing then your sense of empathy and actual morality (rather than obedience to a book or prophet or other social force) is speaking to you.

It is there within any of us who are not sociopaths, no matter how hard one may try to bury it. It is explained by evolution and it is evidenced by neurology. I recommend "The Selfish Gene" for the former and the now large amount of research on mirror neurons for the latter.

Gott Mit Uns? (which translates to "God with us" and was standard issue on Nazi belt buckles)

That social pressure exists WITHIN religions as much as it does outside of religion, indeed more so. Adherence to organized religion is such a social pressure, with built in systems to keep adherents, such as concepts of heaven and hell, as well as blasphemy laws, commands to shame (or even kill) apostates etc.

Why do you think Hitler used "Gott Mit Uns" and other religious themes? Why do you think others like him do the same, employing religion to their ends? How do you think cults like Jim Jones or the Heaven's Gate cult got their followers (which included some pretty intelligent and otherwise sane people) to commit mass suicide? Religion is powerful with these social forces you speak of.

Atheists do not simply follow social pressure and dictate, as you seem to be saying the religious do (only by calling it God and holy scripture). Empathy also plays a role. And I think though they may deny it, empathy also plays a role within the minds of the religious. If your holy book or prophet told you to fly planes into buildings or kill your son or slaughter your neighbours, would you do it?

And it is no answer to say "My book doesn't say anything liike that!" or to deny any part of it that does something like that as taken out of context or figurative or whatever. If you would NOT do any such thing then your sense of empathy and actual morality (rather than obedience to a book or prophet or other social force) is speaking to you.

It is there within any of us who are not sociopaths, no matter how hard one may try to bury it.

the point you addressed is something which the book does explain, that is what is so funny or sad..depending on what it means for the people.

never mind the sociopaths, i have represented the schizophrenic and bipoler in a matter of posts lol.. im kidding but only just.

the killing of the son seems particularly fitting, im assuming your talking about the prophet abraham pbuh.. if not then thats what sprung to mind anyway.

i can only speak for myself in saying i would not kill anybody at all, but in understand that there are people who do so and justify it using any number of reasons.

i could not kill anybody simply because it am not willing to judge somebody to a finality. while there is time to change i will try to change.

with regards to organized religion.
pressure exists within every environment,
when i work the company comes first,
when im at home, i try and put family first,
when im outside, i put the people who i meet first,

if somebody wants me to put them first at the cost of my own beliefs, they would still be put first.. but they will see everything i believe in, in my actions and words..

i would still serve.
but islam comes first.. and everybody carries there beliefs differently and to different ends.

 

[Amigo]

1. Since our world with its amazing details, creations, complications, harmonization (MUST) be made by someone his name is (The Nature or Allah or God or The Father or XYZ), why the atheist don’t worship this creator ?

There is a saying, I think it goes like this: "show me how people lives, and I will tell you what god(s) they worship."
All creatures, including atheists, worship. I don't believe that they worship and pretend not to worship. I mean that they worship, but the not according to the meaning the word 'worship' commonly means. So even they say that they don't worship.

Some atheists lives according to the will of the Creator. They just don't do it according to the common believers' expectation. So it appear that they don't worship. If worship means going to a 'place of worship' of some 'officially' acknoweledge and self-defined religion, then it appears to the religious and non-religious alike that they don't worship.
To me everyone worship. They just worship different gods or worship God differently.

2. Since the atheist do not believe in The Paradise and The Hell, since they are made by our God as He told us through His messengers, can the atheist kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat his children for lunch? If the answer was: (NO), then I will say it does not make sense at all for the atheist because he does not believe in the punishment (Hell)/ rewards (Paradise) system which is made by God, and we, the believers of different faiths, have been taught the human morals from God only.

Most people including atheists, have a sense that love is rewarding; for me this is belief in Heaven.
Most people, including atheists, have a sense that pain result from hurt, and it is a bad consequence from a bad action; for me this is belief in Judgement and Hell.

I think the real meaing of 'athiest' is people who don't acknowledge the (the commonly understading of the words god, worship, faith, believer, morals.

 

[Trumble]

Most people, including atheists, have a sense that pain result from hurt, and it is a bad consequence from a bad action; for me this is belief in Judgement and Hell.

I don't see the connection. Are you saying that you consider an action and its consequences bad if, and only if, they will count against you on the Day of Judgment? Can't they just be bad in themselves, aside from whether anybody is judged or not?

 

[brmm]

Is fear of God seriously the only reason you don't "kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat children for lunch?

Yes... so far I can not find any reasonable reason for me not to do so but fearing my powerful god, ALLAH, and being forever in His Hell.

What about you, what is your reason(s)? I didn't read any!

You have no actual morality? Just obedience to power (God)? I find that very hard to believe.

Even I don't know you, but I think you wouldn't do anything of the above bad things. Why ? because you have normal human morals, but I believe that the atheists don't wish to admit that all the good human morals are from God, because if they do so then they will need to admit that there is a god, then they will need to worship Him, and thats why you have said " I find that very hard to believe", because God who said I will put the killer in my Hell and put the Orphan's sponsor parent in my Paradise.

The atheist is not the one who can not find God, the atheist is the one who do not wish to find God.

Believe me, it is too enough to think about your heart, and how it does work, to know that there is a god.

Have you ever heard from any Ibrahimic religion that some animals will go to Hell and some to Paradise ?! The answer is No because the animals are not decision makers.
Hell/Paradise is only for the one who can take his own decision and choose his way.

BRMM

 

[brmm]

Try putting your 'argument' as an argument instead. Putting it as 'questions' is just an indicator you don't really have one. You need to supply the strongest atheist responses (NOT 'strawmen'), and explain why you think they might be wrong.

I will be always a small student in this life, so I am still learning

And all the pain, suffering, disease, cruelty.... but let's not get too sidetracked. WHY 'must' it?! That's an unsupported statement, not an argument. Atheists do not agree, hence they see no need to acknowledge the existence of such a creator. Even if they did, you would need to provide a further justification for 'worship'. Such non-agreement does not necessarily involve 'science'; there were atheists long before cosmology, evolution and all the rest of it. My own religion has seen no need for such a 'creator' for two and a half-thousand years.

It makes perfect sense. You are assuming, wrongly, that such morality can only come in the form of dictat from God, and be enforceable by promise (Heaven) and threat (Hell). Again, atheists would disagree. Practical moral systems have resulted from philosophical argument (and indeed simple collective self-interest) which are are just a comprehensive and usually far more consistent than anything supposed to be from God, and that rely on reason not carrot and stick.

I really have no idea about your religion because I consider it as a man made religion, I wish this will not make you angry !, I care only about the Jews, Christians, Sabeans and Muslims which are, as far as I know, the only Ibrahimic (divine) faiths in the world, but I wish to know also about your faith, what you believe in and why.

BRMM

 

[brmm]

I do think that I should invite / involve Jehovah witness in this discussion since they don't believe in Hell, so they are welcome to join us

One day I asked my Jehovah witness friends: what God will do for me after my death if I killed many people in this life ?
They said, you will not go to Paradise. I said: thats it ?! Where is the problem if I will be a dead body without any feelings ?!

I don't know how God is worth to be worshiped if this God will not give every one what he deserves according to his records in this life, I mean Hell for the killers and Paradise for the good !

 

[Amigo]

Are you saying that you consider an action and its consequences bad if, and only if, they will count against you on the Day of Judgment?

No.

Can't they just be bad in themselves, aside from whether anybody is judged or not?

Yes...

 

[Amigo]

I don't see the connection.

I am not sure what you mean...the connection between what and what? please clarify...hopefully it will be easy for me to see what you mean.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yes... so far I can not find any reasonable reason for me not to do so but fearing my powerful god, ALLAH, and being forever in His Hell.

If that were true, that would make you a sociopath. I do not believe you are a sociopath. I think that if you lost your faith you'd suprise yourself and not do these things after all.

What about you, what is your reason(s)? I didn't read any!

Basic human empathy and morality. You have it too, deep underneath that religious dogma and obedience. I'm really quite sure its still there if you dig deep enough.

I believe that the atheists don't wish to admit that all the good human morals are from God, because if they do so then they will need to admit that there is a god

Only a God would not explain human empathy and morality. As you just stated, you have only obedience from your religion, not morality or empathy. These are not the same things. And as I previously stated, empathy can be accounted for by evolution and is shown to be biological in studies on mirror neurons. No Gods needed.

The atheist is not the one who can not find God, the atheist is the one who do not wish to find God.

So I guessed correctly. You are one of those theists who feels the need to believe that atheists do not exist, and that all of us who say we are atheists actually do believe in God but pretend not to or are in rebellion or denial or something. My theory is that you need to believe this because to aknowledge that we actually don't believe in your God threatens your own faith.

But the truth is that I no more believe your God exists than that Santa Claus or faeries or leprechauns exist. They are just as unlikely to me. I'm sorry if you can't accept that.

Have you ever heard from any Ibrahimic religion that some animals will go to Hell and some to Paradise ?! The answer is No because the animals are not decision makers.

Actually, some Christians do believe that animals go to heaven.

Hell/Paradise is only for the one who can take his own decision and choose his way.

An atheist doesn't make that choice, anymore than he makes the choice to turn down a pot of gold by not following a rainbow. As to him neither Gods nor Leprechauns exist, he can't can't choose heaven/hell or pots of gold.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Amigo, I can't make any sense of your initial post in this thread. Perhaps english is not your first language? Please clarify further. What were you trying to say exactly?

 

[brmm]

Basic human empathy and morality. You have it too, deep underneath that religious dogma and obedience. I'm really quite sure its still there if you dig deep enough.

This is what I was saying that what you have called "Basic human empathy and morality" with/without religion is from God only because it is in the nature of normal humans, but the atheists do not wish to admit this fact.

As you just stated, you have only obedience from your religion, not morality or empathy.

I am afraid that I didn't get this part, but I will mention some thing from the Holy Quran.
Q17:23 "And your Lord has decreed that you should not worship any except Him and (to show) fairest companionship to parents; in case ever one or both of them reaches old age in your presence, do not say to them, "Fie!" nor scold them; and speak to them an honorable saying"

These are not the same things. And as I previously stated, empathy can be accounted for by evolution and is shown to be biological in studies on mirror neurons. No Gods needed.

If it is by evolution, why the animals are very protective and sweet to their babies, then when they are big they could eat each other?
Some of the studies are right and most are wrong. Some are done by believers and some are done by atheists like Darwin.
If you take a baby cat away from its mom in your home, you will see when this cat is getting big it has a normal cat behavior, the question here: who taught this cat its catty behavior? Maybe you will say it is in its Chromosomes, then I will ask you: who created these Chromosomes? Maybe you will say the nature. Then I will ask you: why you do not worship this nature who can do what genus humans can not ?

So I guessed correctly. You are one of those theists who feels the need to believe that atheists do not exist

I did NOT say so.
Atheists do exist.
God does exist.
God knows atheists/believers better than knowing themselves.
Believers trying to know God everyone in his right/wrong way.
Atheists do not wish to know or recognize God.

An atheist doesn't make that choice, anymore than he makes the choice to turn down a pot of gold by not following a rainbow. As to him neither Gods nor Leprechauns exist, he can't can't choose heaven/hell or pots of gold.

Being a believer/an atheist is an ability. God give it to every one of us. You would not be able to be an atheist if God did not give this ability. Thats why I was saying Hell/Paradise only for decision makers like us and not for animals.