My argument for the atheists

[Ali Mujahidin]

Once upon a time, I read an anecdote about Socrates.

One morning, Socrates asked his students whether they thought it was right to kill another person. Almost as one, they said,

"No!"

Then Socrates said,

"Suppose someone killed your father, would it be right to kill that person?"

Almost simultaneously, his students answered,

"Yes!"

Socrates went on to discuss the question of morality involved in killing another person.

I am giving this as an example of what happens when a person reasons out the whys and wherefores of morality. Under different circumstances, the morality of an action would be viewed differently. What is considered to be morally right under one set of circumstances would be considered wrong under another set of circumstances.

Unless there is belief and conviction that Allah knows better. Which is something that is not supposed to happen for anyone who does not acknowledge the existence of Allah.

 

[GuestFellow]

Being a believer/an atheist is an ability. God give it to every one of us. You would not be able to be an atheist if God did not give this ability. Thats why I was saying Hell/Paradise only for decision makers like us and not for animals.

Salaam,

This sounds like freewill to me.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Unless there is belief and conviction that Allah knows better. Which is something that is not supposed to happen for anyone who does not acknowledge the existence of Allah.

But realize what you are doing here. You are trading morality for obedience and rendering yourself amoral. I'll ask you the same question I asked the other gentleman. If you truly believed that Allah told you to fly a plane into a building, kill your son, or do genocide on a neighbouring tribe, would you do it?

Our moral compass and sense of empathy and moral reasoning may be difficult to work with sometimes, but it is all we have, theist and atheist alike. Obedience to a perceived God is not morality. It is not empathy. It is obedience. Obedience is not morality and can as easily lead to attrocity as charity. Nazi soldiers were obedient.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If it is by evolution, why the animals are very protective and sweet to their babies, then when they are big they could eat each other?

You don't seem to understand what evolution is. Not all animals have evolved the same. Not all animals are social animals with strong empathic sense. No animals have the same development humans have, so to speak even of chimpanzees is to miss a lot of human evolution.

Some of the studies are right and most are wrong. Some are done by believers and some are done by atheists like Darwin.

Why does it matter if they are done by "atheists like Darwin"? Does that somehow make them wrong? What evidence do you have to say "most are wrong"? Have you studied them? Do you have errors in the methodology to point out? If you do, the scientists who did them would be happy to hear from you and to introduce new controls. This is how science works, it is self-corrective, unlike religion.

Then I will ask you: why you do not worship this nature who can do what genus humans can not ?

Why would I? What reason would I have to worship the process of evolution? Just because I am the result of it, you say I should worship it? Why?

God knows atheists/believers better than knowing themselves.
Believers trying to know God everyone in his right/wrong way.
Atheists do not wish to know or recognize God.

It is funny to see you try to tell an atheist what he thinks and what he desires. You think you know my mind better than I do. That's not only arrogant, thats just silly. I could just as easily say Leprechauns know you better than you know yourself. You do not wish to know Leprechauns and do not wish to recognize Leprechauns.

Being a believer/an atheist is an ability. God give it to every one of us. You would not be able to be an atheist if God did not give this ability.

You make this claim and you give no evidence.

 

[GuestFellow]

But realize what you are doing here. You are trading morality for obedience and rendering yourself amoral. I'll ask you the same question I asked the other gentleman. If you truly believed that Allah told you to fly a plane into a building, kill your son, or do genocide on a neighbouring tribe, would you do it?

Allah will never tell us to do that. It is an example that does not reflect reality for Muslims.

Our moral compass and sense of empathy and moral reasoning may be difficult to work with sometimes, but it is all we have, theist and atheist alike. Obedience to a perceived God is not morality. It is not empathy. It is obedience. Obedience is not morality and can as easily lead to attrocity as charity. Nazi soldiers were obedient.

It depends who you are obedient to. If you obedient to God, then you will not to anything to displease him. As for the Nazi soldiers, they were obedient to Hitler. Hitler set down rules what is considered to be right or wrong.

I think obedience and morality complement each other.

 

[Mister Agenda]

I am not chiming in to take a side in this argument. Just want to introduce a thought. 'Atheist' is too broad a term when it comes to talking about morality and ethics. 'Atheist' tells you no more about an individual's stance on, say, the death penalty than 'theist' does. At the least, you have to know what particular religion a theist follows to guess at their ethics. And you have to know an atheist's moral philosophy to have a reasonable shot at guessing their ethical stance.

The ethics/morality part of this discussion would more rewarding if aimed at humanism than atheism. Atheism is merely not believing in one or more supernatural deities actually existing; just as theism is merely believing one or more supernatural deities do exist.

 

[GuestFellow]

^ I agree.

Atheists simply believe God does not exist. I think some people assume all atheists are against the death penalty, support gay marriages, pro choice and so on.

 

[M.I.A.]

But realize what you are doing here. You are trading morality for obedience and rendering yourself amoral. I'll ask you the same question I asked the other gentleman. If you truly believed that Allah told you to fly a plane into a building, kill your son, or do genocide on a neighbouring tribe, would you do it?

Our moral compass and sense of empathy and moral reasoning may be difficult to work with sometimes, but it is all we have, theist and atheist alike. Obedience to a perceived God is not morality. It is not empathy. It is obedience. Obedience is not morality and can as easily lead to attrocity as charity. Nazi soldiers were obedient.

no, god does not tell people to fly planes into buildings.
people tell people to fly planes into buildings.. its whoever you follow that removes freedom of choice with promise of paradise.
on the other hand god specifically told gw bush to go to war.. so i guess you can aim your question towards other faiths also.

anyway, there is no compulsion in religion and im sure any person of the muslim faith would understand that even if it were not by our hands what would be would be. what we choose to be a part of is entirely our own choice.

how can any of us profess obedience to god? to suggest we are is to imply something that none can be sure of.
we can at best follow what is written in the quran, which i would hope gives us a better chance of receiving a paradise none of us have knowledge or understanding of.

Once upon a time, I read an anecdote about Socrates.

One morning, Socrates asked his students whether they thought it was right to kill another person. Almost as one, they said,

"No!"

Then Socrates said,

"Suppose someone killed your father, would it be right to kill that person?"

Almost simultaneously, his students answered,

"Yes!"

Socrates went on to discuss the question of morality involved in killing another person.

I am giving this as an example of what happens when a person reasons out the whys and wherefores of morality. Under different circumstances, the morality of an action would be viewed differently. What is considered to be morally right under one set of circumstances would be considered wrong under another set of circumstances.

Unless there is belief and conviction that Allah knows better. Which is something that is not supposed to happen for anyone who does not acknowledge the existence of Allah.

wrt your anecdote on Socrates, i can give you my perspective.

if i was murdered i would not want anybody to take revenge on my behalf, simply because i believe that, that point in time cannot be changed.
i live my life accordingly.

i have believed in a god that i put my trust in, and i have read more than enough to suggest that where action should be taken, it should be taken.

unfortunately this is my point of contention, that is the only contention i have in belief of my god and my own faith. i do not expect god to feed those that are hungry..if i had the means i would.

in in the same respect i would not expect god to save anybody.. but if i had the means i would.

maybe that is the proof of god, the paths we make for ourselves.


an anecdote of my own.

imagine a fruit that is tampered with in the early stages, the name of allah swt is engraved upon it.
the fruit grows normally and is collected with all the other fruits.
it arrives half a world away and end up in some supermarket.

it is selected just as normally as any other fruit and when in the process of cooking,
the name of allah swt is revealed.

does it become any less of a miracle? or is it deception?

 

[Amigo]

Amigo, I can't make any sense of your initial post in this thread. Perhaps english is not your first language? Please clarify further. What were you trying to say exactly?

Yes, English is not my first language... and sorry for what was not clear...

I was saying that we all have different ways we conceive words such as: God, god, religion, belief, faith, worship, heaven, hell, etc.
Also, there seem to be some general common agreement about what those words means. So when people are discussing, the common conception is assumed for everyone, but the common conception is not always the right one. Atheists are generally thought as people who don't believe in God or any gods. As I was saying, this is according to the common concept of God/god.
The way I understand God and belief, I believe that there is no real atheists. I acknowledge how people call themselves, but from my perspective, everyone worships, therefore everyone has a god or gods. The common understanding of worship is: rituals around a place of worship. So if we have a people who doesn't seem to have a centre place in their life where they do a set of rituals, these people don't appear to be worshipping any god. But is there really any person who does not have a centre or centres of their life when they do some sets of rituals which govern their lives? I think not.
Even the student who only believe that the highest good in his life is to go to school, is worshiping the intellec and school is his temple.
A person who is addicted to tv and his life seems to be all around the tv is worshiping entertainment and tv is his temple/altar where they sacrifice their time....and life.
For example, people who divorce, they divorce because there is simply idolatry and have been worshiping false gods. It does not matter whether they knew it consciously or meant it, it is the facts that determine the fate. Even if they claim to be worshiping one true God or claim to be athiests.
This is because real worship of one true God produces unity and integrity in life.
If there is divisions, violence, etc in a person, family, community, nation, etc, it is because there is worship of other god(s) other than the true God, not because there is no worship. So in all cases, there is always worship.

Now, when I see an atheist with integrity, good and united family, solid friendships and relationships, I tell myself that this person knows the true God and worships Him. He only calls himself atheist because he is comparing his views with the common views about religion. I am not saying that he pretends to be atheist, I am saying that he is only not aware that there are views of God that match him. He is one of those people who will be surprised by the words of Jesus at the Last Judgement.

 

[brmm]

Why does it matter if they are done by "atheists like Darwin"? Does that somehow make them wrong? What evidence do you have to say "most are wrong"? Have you studied them? Do you have errors in the methodology to point out? If you do, the scientists who did them would be happy to hear from you and to introduce new controls. This is how science works, it is self-corrective, unlike religion.

Science is self-corrective because it is man made and always generates errors unlike religion which is always the same because it is made by God.
From my academic studies, I found that (almost) any science not based on math could be wrong.

It is funny to see you try to tell an atheist what he thinks and what he desires. You think you know my mind better than I do. That's not only arrogant, thats just silly. I could just as easily say Leprechauns know you better than you know yourself. You do not wish to know Leprechauns and do not wish to recognize Leprechauns.
.

You said "I am an atheist and there is no God in this world"
I repeated (almost) your words and said "The atheist is the one who don't wish to know or recognize God", I don't see why you sound angry with me ?

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

You said "I am an atheist and there is no God in this world"
I repeated (almost) your words and said "The atheist is the one who don't wish to know or recognize God", I don't see why you sound angry with me ?

He's an atheist of the dawkinite variety, did you really expect anything different? They are incapable of seeing any other view other than their own.

Trying to debate with one is like mud wrestling with a pig: you'll be covered in **** but you will eventually realise that the pig actually enjoys it.

So don't beat yourself up about it, its to be expected. . . . .

 

[Ali Mujahidin]

If you truly believed that Allah told you to fly a plane into a building, kill your son, or do genocide on a neighbouring tribe, would you do it?

To be honest, I can't answer that correctly because I have not been in a situation even remotely close to what you suggested. Maybe Nabi Ibrahim as can answer that better. Or Nabi Ismail. I learned from a very reliable source that they were both once faced with a situation like what you suggested.

Just curious. Does an atheist acknowledge any authority higher than himself, like, say, a military leader? For example, if an atheist becomes a soldier and he is ordered by his commander to kill someone, would he do it? Or an atheist would rather be dead than be subordinate to any authority other than himself? Really, I am just curious. No reply required if making a reply creates any kind of discomfort.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Just curious. Does an atheist acknowledge any authority higher than himself, like, say, a military leader? For example, if an atheist becomes a soldier and he is ordered by his commander to kill someone, would he do it?

That would depend on the particular atheist. There is nothing about atheism perse that would swing him either way. Atheism just means he doesn't believe in God(s), nothing more.

 

[Pygoscelis]

He's an atheist of the dawkinite variety

Actually not. I disagree with Dawkins on a number of things.

As for the rest of your post, is slander and back biting Islamic?

 

[Gator]

Hello, Coming into this late but.

Peace for you,
I wrote this thread because I wish to share with the atheist members their ideas/thinking about God and man's creation.

I'm sorry, do you mean you are sharing your ideas about God & man or sharing what you think is our ideas. Questions below don't really flow from this statement.

I will put my argument as questions:
1. Since our world with its amazing details, creations, complications, harmonization (MUST) be made by someone his name is (The Nature or Allah or God or The Father or XYZ), why the atheist don’t worship this creator ?

Complexity does not automatically denote conscious design, in my opinion.

2. Since the atheist do not believe in The Paradise and The Hell, since they are made by our God as He told us through His messengers, can the atheist kill any one, or have relations with his family members or eat his children for lunch?

I guess it depends on how crazy, horny or hungry they are. (I think you meant "is it morally right for an atheist to"..., but I am loath to make grammatical assumptions).

If the answer was: (NO), then I will say it does not make sense at all for the atheist because he does not believe in the punishment (Hell)/ rewards (Paradise) system which is made by God, and we, the believers of different faiths, have been taught the human morals from God only.

Except for serial killers (just going with the can kill anyone bit), I believe empathy would make them feel bad to do so.

I will appreciate to hear your kind opinions.

BRMM

Thanks.