My coleague's Interesting Athiest Convo

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Brother Abd’Majid,

Adam and Hawwa (pbut) had two pairs of children (a girl and a boy) every time they gave birth (I’m sure your friend is well versed on this). Now going from the previous post and what I quoted, each twin had a different set of chromosomes that were not similar to each other. In which case, it would not be incest if one set of the twin married from the other twin. Now surely that is not hard to comprehend if you’re willing to take God as being omnipotent, omniscient etc.

If your friend continues to disagree ask him, do you believe in the basic tenet of Evolution, that we all came from a single cell? If he says yes, then say if you are so willing to accept that random mutation and natural selection can produce mechanisms that are so complex such as us, imagine what God could do. You place your faith on a theory, yet completely dismiss the existence of God which answers our questions. It is one thing to say I do not want to be bound down by laws, God’s law because it restricts one from doing what they please whether it is good or bad for them. However, it is another thing to deny the existence of a higher being and accept natural selection and random mutation that has more unanswered questions than it has answered questions and insist you have enough prove to prove God does not exist.

If you die as a believer, then you’ve nothing to lose but if you die as an atheist then you lose out. At the end of the day, both evolution and creationism rely on faith, evolution is nothing without faith. Will you deny your creator faith while you’re so keen on giving a human, just like yourself the credit (Darwin and numerous others who have worked on evolution)?



May Allah (swt) reward you for your good actions brother and May Allah (swt) bestow his rahma on us....ameen.

:wasalamex

I will do this tomorrow, mashAllah so knowledgable. JazakAllah khair sister You will get the reward if this bro becomes muslim!!

 

[Silver Pearl]

All credit goes to Allah (swt) for he guides whom he pleases Brother Abd’Majid.

Greetings HeiGou,

I’m not sure whether that guy was simply mocking Islam or not. Is it not possible that Adam and Hawwa had various different chromosomes so that every time they gave birth each twin had different types of chromosomes and hence God made it unlawful for the same twins to marry? Now it is possible for the number of chromosome to decrease, increase because humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes while chimps have 24 pairs. I’m sure you’re aware that both humans and chimps come from a common ancestor. Mutation, ah the possibilities are endless.

The world came about a long time ago when a lot of debris floating around the Sun coalesced into a hot ball of magma that gradually cooled to form the Earth.

Alright, let’s assume that is correct, where did the ‘lots of debris’ come from? Where did the sun come from?

 

[HeiGou]

Adam and Hawwa (pbut) had two pairs of children (a girl and a boy) every time they gave birth (I’m sure your friend is well versed on this). Now going from the previous post and what I quoted, each twin had a different set of chromosomes that were not similar to each other. In which case, it would not be incest if one set of the twin married from the other twin. Now surely that is not hard to comprehend if you’re willing to take God as being omnipotent, omniscient etc.

This is a very interesting rationalisation - do you have any scriptural proof of this? Is the word "chromosome" mentioned in the Quran?

If you are willing to take God as omnipotent nothing is hard. But that is kind of begging the question.

If your friend continues to disagree ask him, do you believe in the basic tenet of Evolution, that we all came from a single cell? If he says yes, then say if you are so willing to accept that random mutation and natural selection can produce mechanisms that are so complex such as us, imagine what God could do.

Sure. Imagine. If you are willing to accept that a creature as complex as us had to be created, who created God? You see where this falls down as a logical argument?

You place your faith on a theory, yet completely dismiss the existence of God which answers our questions.

Bu the existence of God does not answer a single question. It just stops people asking them.

It is one thing to say I do not want to be bound down by laws, God’s law because it restricts one from doing what they please whether it is good or bad for them. However, it is another thing to deny the existence of a higher being and accept natural selection and random mutation that has more unanswered questions than it has answered questions and insist you have enough prove to prove God does not exist.

What unanswered questions exist in Evolutionary theory in the sense you mean? It is better to have unanswered, but answerable, questions than to be prevented from asking any questions at all don't you think?

If you die as a believer, then you’ve nothing to lose but if you die as an atheist then you lose out.

Ahh good old Pascal's wager. That only works if there are two options - Faith of Islam and non-Faith. But what if the Christians are right? Then you have three options - Faith in Islam, Faith in Christianity or Non-Faith. If you die in the wrong category you will burn in Hell forever. What if the Hindus are right? You have four categories - die in the wrong one and you will burn in Hell forever. What if the Buddihsts are right? You see - if you die in the right Faith among the thousands of possible choices, you will go to Heaven, but if you die in the wrong one, you will go to Hell. If you have no strong opinions on the subject and keep an open mind you may enjoy your life and not close yourself off to the evidence of the True Faith when you see it.

At the end of the day, both evolution and creationism rely on faith, evolution is nothing without faith. Will you deny your creator faith while you’re so keen on giving a human, just like yourself the credit (Darwin and numerous others who have worked on evolution)?

Actually if Evolution is true, it is true if you believe in it or not. It does not require any faith at all.

 

[HeiGou]

agreed, but evulution credible? Your talking about the bones? Nothing proves we formed from those fossils. No credit in my opinion but what is your MAIN reason for "NOT" believing in Adam and Eve?

This should go where all the other atheist posts go pretty soon I think.

Evolution is highly credible. It rests on three basic assumptions - deep time, inheritance and selection. The Earth is very old. Organisms resemble their parents. Better adapted organisms have more survivng offspring. Who could deny that?

The fossil record is one thing. The fact that we can construct evolutionary trees from what are clearly our near relatives, suggests it very strongly.

The main reason is there is just no evidence for it. There is for evolution.

 

[HeiGou]

I’m not sure whether that guy was simply mocking Islam or not. Is it not possible that Adam and Hawwa had various different chromosomes so that every time they gave birth each twin had different types of chromosomes and hence God made it unlawful for the same twins to marry? Now it is possible for the number of chromosome to decrease, increase because humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes while chimps have 24 pairs. I’m sure you’re aware that both humans and chimps come from a common ancestor. Mutation, ah the possibilities are endless.

Anything is possible with an omnipotent God. But naturally? No, it is not possible. It is possible for slow gradual changes and even mutations, but are you saying Adam and Eve were mutants? What is the evidence for that? If you insist your beliefs are true you can fit most evidence to them. But a more rational approach is to go where the evidence takes you.

Alright, let’s assume that is correct, where did the ‘lots of debris’ come from? Where did the sun come from?

They came from earlier stars that had exploded. The Sun came from a gradually coalescing mass of hydrogen and other gases. Ultimately it all came from the Big Bang.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

This should go where all the other atheist posts go pretty soon I think.

Evolution is highly credible. It rests on three basic assumptions - deep time, inheritance and selection. The Earth is very old. Organisms resemble their parents. Better adapted organisms have more survivng offspring. Who could deny that?

The fossil record is one thing. The fact that we can construct evolutionary trees from what are clearly our near relatives, suggests it very strongly.

The main reason is there is just no evidence for it. There is for evolution.

lol lets not pass theory for evidence, anyway your right, unless u take the quran as evidence i, myself havent seen the evidence. I still believe it tho, 100%

 

[extinction]

but i couldnt get him to say the shahada

InshaAllah he will do soon enuff

listen bro as much as your efforts will be rewarded inshallah it is simply our duty and obligation to inform them of the right path and constantly remind them but hidayah is in Allah's hands you never know maybe because of your speaking with him someone else on the face of this earth is getting hidaya...

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

listen bro as much as your efforts will be rewarded inshallah it is simply our duty and obligation to inform them of the right path and constantly remind them but hidayah is in Allah's hands you never know maybe because of your speaking with him someone else on the face of this earth is getting hidaya...

hidaya = guidance??

 

[extinction]

I don't know if atheist is quite right. Let's say I am hovering in the wastelands of doubt. I do believe in evolution in the sense I think it is a highly credible scientific theory. The world came about a long time ago when a lot of debris floating around the Sun coalesced into a hot ball of magma that gradually cooled to form the Earth.

you actually believe this stuff??comingg from you brother goo I would have expected a more firm explanation of why you refute God

 

[extinction]

hidaya = guidance??

yes...

 

[HeiGou]

you actually believe this stuff??comingg from you brother goo I would have expected a more firm explanation of why you refute God

I don't think I have ever refuted God. At least not for a long time - not since I was a silly and arrogant teenager. Yes I believe that stuff. Why wouldn't I? Scientists build rockets that go to the Moon, planes that fly, atomic bombs. They have good track records. Why wouldn't I believe them when they use their science for other purposes? When my grandmother is sick I take her to the doctor. Who wouldn't?

 

[Mainul_Islam]

A'oozu billahi min ash-Shaitan ir-Rajeem. Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem.

Sure. Imagine. If you are willing to accept that a creature as complex as us had to be created, who created God? You see where this falls down as a logical argument?

that is a common question asked by atheists. Muslims believe God is the Most High, the Creator, the All-Powerful, the Eternal, the First and Last, and is incomparable to His creations. God is THE Creator, and He created everything. if sum1 else created God, then God would not be THE Creator but would become a creator. being the most intelligent creature on this planet, it is likely for humans compare God with themselves (i.e. creation). but God's Knowledge is far beyond a mere human being's mind and its literally IMPOSSIBLE to understand what God thinks and knows.

Bu the existence of God does not answer a single question. It just stops people asking them.

i admit that disbelieving in God motivates atheists more to discover sciences (i.e. the effort put to prove evolution to be true). but Islam encourages people to gain knowledge ...so they may understand the Signs Allah has put throughout His creation, and glorify Him for such amazing creations.

What unanswered questions exist in Evolutionary theory in the sense you mean? It is better to have unanswered, but answerable, questions than to be prevented from asking any questions at all don't you think?

the reason why it is still called a theory is because there is not enough evidence to make it a fact! there may be some evidence to back up the theory of evolution, but the rest of the theory is just opinions and ideas of scientists of what may have happened. for example, a fish evolving to a land reptile, then to a bird, then to a mammal, and from monkeys to humans.... how many fossils have been found that proves animals have gone thru process of evolution to be what they are now, such as horses, giraffs, elephants, etc? when Darwin came up with this theory, he was just stating his beliefs. how ridiculous is it that scientists should take his theory as a fact when his theory claims giraffs came to be because horses or llamas or whatever tried to reach tall trees and thats how their neck grew?

Ahh good old Pascal's wager. That only works if there are two options - Faith of Islam and non-Faith. But what if the Christians are right? Then you have three options - Faith in Islam, Faith in Christianity or Non-Faith. If you die in the wrong category you will burn in Hell forever. What if the Hindus are right? You have four categories - die in the wrong one and you will burn in Hell forever. What if the Buddihsts are right? You see - if you die in the right Faith among the thousands of possible choices, you will go to Heaven, but if you die in the wrong one, you will go to Hell. If you have no strong opinions on the subject and keep an open mind you may enjoy your life and not close yourself off to the evidence of the True Faith when you see it.

thats why u have to use ur logic and reasoning, and question ur beliefs (suppose u followed a religion). pagan beliefs has just proven to be false according to modern science... and so is the Christian Bible proven to have contradictions... thats why u have to choose the religion that makes most sense. if the Quran hadnt remain intact, Islam sure would have ended up as present Christianity. still to this day, the no scientific errors nor can any contradictions be found in the Quran. this is why Islam is the fastest growing religion.

Actually if Evolution is true, it is true if you believe in it or not. It does not require any faith at all.

ur right when u say it does not require any faith to believe in evolution. actually, it required not enough faith to reject God.



P.S. i dont know why atheists' minds are clouded with the evolution theory when the everything else (i.e. the universe) clearly confirms that the universe and life forms could not have come by chance or a series of coincidences.

 

[HeiGou]

that is a common question asked by atheists. Muslims believe God is the Most High, the Creator, the All-Powerful, the Eternal, the First and Last, and is incomparable to His creations. God is THE Creator, and He created everything. if sum1 else created God, then God would not be THE Creator but would become a creator. being the most intelligent creature on this planet, it is likely for humans compare God with themselves (i.e. creation). but God's Knowledge is far beyond a mere human being's mind and its literally IMPOSSIBLE to understand what God thinks and knows.

Which is common to Jews, Christians and Muslims and is a sensible religious position. But from a logical position, you are simply not answering the question. When faced with "How is this possible?", you say "It is the work of someone so Big and Powerful we cannot understand". Which is fine from a religious stand-point, but it amounts to a sterile scientific answer. It is also not particularly logical as an approach to the wonder of the Universe - if the Universe is so amazing and wonderful that it could not have arisen naturally, and so requires a God to have created it, you have not answered the question only made things more complex.

i admit that disbelieving in God motivates atheists more to discover sciences (i.e. the effort put to prove evolution to be true). but Islam encourages people to gain knowledge ...so they may understand the Signs Allah has put throughout His creation, and glorify Him for such amazing creations.

If only they would! Muslims have not followed up on this and frankly I do not think they can. As believers there are whole vast areas where they have to accept no questions can be asked and the answers have been found and it is a sin to question. The purpose of gaining knowledge is to glorify God, not to know in and of itself in most monotheistic religions. If there is a clash between God and knowledge, who do you think will win?

the reason why it is still called a theory is because there is not enough evidence to make it a fact! there may be some evidence to back up the theory of evolution, but the rest of the theory is just opinions and ideas of scientists of what may have happened. for example, a fish evolving to a land reptile, then to a bird, then to a mammal, and from monkeys to humans.... how many fossils have been found that proves animals have gone thru process of evolution to be what they are now, such as horses, giraffs, elephants, etc? when Darwin came up with this theory, he was just stating his beliefs. how ridiculous is it that scientists should take his theory as a fact when his theory claims giraffs came to be because horses or llamas or whatever tried to reach tall trees and thats how their neck grew?

Well that is not fair! It is a theory because scientists work with theories but by theory they mean something different to what you mean. But in general it is not a fact such as the fact that the Sun rises in the East. But it is a theory that best fits the available evidence. Theories do not become facts in science and they are all provisional - they all might be wrong and scientists should always question and never accept blindly. Lots of fossils exist of the ancestors of those animals. No one takes his theory as fact but as the best explanation we have.

thats why u have to use ur logic and reasoning, and question ur beliefs (suppose u followed a religion). pagan beliefs has just proven to be false according to modern science... and so is the Christian Bible proven to have contradictions... thats why u have to choose the religion that makes most sense. if the Quran hadnt remain intact, Islam sure would have ended up as present Christianity. still to this day, the no scientific errors nor can any contradictions be found in the Quran. this is why Islam is the fastest growing religion.

What pagan belief has been proven wrong by modern science? What makes you think the Bible has been proven to have contradictions? Islam does not make "more sense", it is just that it has not been subjected to the same sort of criticism and examination that Christianity has been - and most of the more extreme claims have been dumped (such as the good Sheik Bin Baz's claim tha the Sun orbits the Earth). It is true that modern Muslims interpret their texts to claim that they agree with science and there are no contradictions, but 100 years ago people would have got in trouble for claiming what Muslims now regard as obvious - such as the Earth going around the Sun. But you can see that there is a conflict between science and Islam in that so many Muslims reject evolution. Those parts of science they can reconcile to the Quran they accept. Those that they do not, they reject. As you do. When it comes down to it, scripture triumphs over science. Islam is not the fastest growing religion and it is mainly growing so fast because Muslims are poor and illiterate and have more children than non-Muslims. It is a measure of their failure to adapt to the modern world.

ur right when u say it does not require any faith to believe in evolution. actually, it required not enough faith to reject God.

I am sorry but I don't follow that.

P.S. i dont know why atheists' minds are clouded with the evolution theory when the everything else (i.e. the universe) clearly confirms that the universe and life forms could not have come by chance or a series of coincidences.

No one says that life evolved through a series of coincidences. Why do you think that the Universe clearly confirms the existence of God?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Evolution is highly credible. It rests on three basic assumptions - deep time, inheritance and selection. The Earth is very old. Organisms resemble their parents. Better adapted organisms have more survivng offspring. Who could deny that?

The fossil record is one thing. The fact that we can construct evolutionary trees from what are clearly our near relatives, suggests it very strongly.

The main reason is there is just no evidence for it. There is for evolution.

Yes we resemble our parents, in no way do we resemble apes. Sry i just dont think so! Then you might aswell say gorillas are the advances form of monkeys!

fossils could be of many different animals who hav gone extinct, no evidence to show its what we hav indeed come from .

 

[Maryam22]

What pagan belief has been proven wrong by modern science? What makes you think the Bible has been proven to have contradictions? Islam does not make "more sense", it is just that it has not been subjected to the same sort of criticism and examination that Christianity has been - and most of the more extreme claims have been dumped (such as the good Sheik Bin Baz's claim tha the Sun orbits the Earth). It is true that modern Muslims interpret their texts to claim that they agree with science and there are no contradictions, but 100 years ago people would have got in trouble for claiming what Muslims now regard as obvious - such as the Earth going around the Sun. But you can see that there is a conflict between science and Islam in that so many Muslims reject evolution. Those parts of science they can reconcile to the Quran they accept. Those that they do not, they reject. As you do. When it comes down to it, scripture triumphs over science. Islam is not the fastest growing religion and it is mainly growing so fast because Muslims are poor and illiterate and have more children than non-Muslims. It is a measure of their failure to adapt to the modern world.



Hi, where/when did Sheik Bin Baz's say ths. reference please??!!

 

[Mainul_Islam]

Which is common to Jews, Christians and Muslims and is a sensible religious position. But from a logical position, you are simply not answering the question. When faced with "How is this possible?", you say "It is the work of someone so Big and Powerful we cannot understand". Which is fine from a religious stand-point, but it amounts to a sterile scientific answer. It is also not particularly logical as an approach to the wonder of the Universe - if the Universe is so amazing and wonderful that it could not have arisen naturally, and so requires a God to have created it, you have not answered the question only made things more complex.

i am not God, nor do i know what God knows, so its impossible for me to answer that question. can you answer it? no. just because u dont have an answer to that question doesnt prove God doesnt exist. its funny how u atheists believe the universe came to be through the work of nothing but coincidences (if u believe in the Big Bang) or the universe is infinite (eternal), but its hard for u to accept there was nothing before God.

If only they would! Muslims have not followed up on this and frankly I do not think they can. As believers there are whole vast areas where they have to accept no questions can be asked and the answers have been found and it is a sin to question. The purpose of gaining knowledge is to glorify God, not to know in and of itself in most monotheistic religions. If there is a clash between God and knowledge, who do you think will win?

plz dont confuse Islam with Christianity. u said IF there is a clash between God and knowledge... that wont happen since knowledge is given by God.

Islam does not make "more sense", it is just that it has not been subjected to the same sort of criticism and examination that Christianity has been - and most of the more extreme claims have been dumped (such as the good Sheik Bin Baz's claim tha the Sun orbits the Earth). It is true that modern Muslims interpret their texts to claim that they agree with science and there are no contradictions, but 100 years ago people would have got in trouble for claiming what Muslims now regard as obvious - such as the Earth going around the Sun.

please prove ur claim

Islam is not the fastest growing religion and it is mainly growing so fast because Muslims are poor and illiterate and have more children than non-Muslims.

im sure statistics show Islam is the fastest growing religion in the west too (and i dont think u would call the nations in the west as poor countries)

No one says that life evolved through a series of coincidences. Why do you think that the Universe clearly confirms the existence of God?

the Earth is just a tiny part of the solar system. see the universe and tell me where they came from and who set up systems to function as they do. examine microscopic systems and tell me how are such simple things so complex (in functioning and organizing themselves). how did single-celled living things evolve into so much complex creature like humans?