New atheist

[Ümit]

You dont have any alternative unlike the religious people out there. New atheist still piggyback on Christians. No religion that I can think of only has "happy Heaven".

Christianity in its new form has a happy heaven.
If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved and lead a happy life in heaven.
if you do not believe, then nothing happens..you just die and parish...disappear...but no hell.

Hinduism has a happy heaven.
If you live a good life, then you reincarnate as a better person higher in rank...if not, a lower rank...you keep reincarnating in this world untill you reach the highest rank, and after that you will reach nirvana and you won't reincarnate anymore.

 

[Abz2000]

Christianity in its new form has a happy heaven.
If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved and lead a happy life in heaven.
if you do not believe, then nothing happens..you just die and parish...disappear...but no hell.

Hinduism has a happy heaven.
If you live a good life, then you reincarnate as a better person higher in rank...if not, a lower rank...you keep reincarnating in this world untill you reach the highest rank, and after that you will reach nirvana and you won't reincarnate anymore.

Atheism has a happy heaven, you stage a false flag attack on your citizens, call it a pearl harbour, then go an murder and rob people in other countries in order to live a rich life and lend money on usury to the looted people, but since it's a scam worse than a pyramid scheme - it begins to eat its own tail and breeds offspring with minds that are more illogical, and criminal, and narrow minded - then the empire falls.
With Islam it's not only happy heaven hereafter, a just earth is created, it is the only empire that has survived through the ages and has continually stood back up after every stumble - read history to realise that the only names in a chain which ultimately prevailed are those of the Prophets who stood on the testimony that there is no other deity except the one God.

[MENTION=43323]nosmarter[/MENTION] - Who do you think God is? i.e - what/who is the most powerful being in your mind?

 

[Ümit]

Atheism has a happy heaven, you stage a false flag attack on your citizens, call it a pearl harbour, then go an murder and rob people in other countries in order to live a rich life and lend money on usury to the looted people, but since it's a scam worse than a pyramid scheme - it begins to eat its own tail and breeds offspring with minds that are more illogical, and criminal, and narrow minded - then the empire falls.
With Islam it's not only happy heaven hereafter, a just earth is created, it is the only empire that has survived through the ages and has continually stood back up after every stumble - read history to realise that the only names in a chain which ultimately prevailed are those of the Prophets who stood on the testimony that there is no other deity except the one God.

@nosmarter - Who do you think God is? i.e - what/who is the most powerful being in your mind?

If you put it that way, yes you are right...atheists then also have a temporary happy heaven on this world which they must create themselves first.

But I think Zafran meant a happy heaven like in the afterlife.

 

[nosmarter]

What I am saying is...The big bang, and the evolution theory and both very plausible theories...But God is still in the background...those theories still do not exclude God from it.

I agree with you on that, Umie. It definitely doesn't exclude God. But it doesn't need the existence of God to explain it, which is why I can't use that as proof. I find it fascinating that as a scientist yourself, you have come to terms with reconciling evolution and the Koran. I find that encouraging. What about humans? Do you believe they evolved also, or did they get created directly by God in the form we are today?

The explanations for the suffering of the innocents, especially small children will always remain a problem for me. I realize that you offer an explanation for this, but to me at least, it still sounds like the "God works in mysterious ways" argument. It's just a perspective issue, I guess. I'm not at all saying your thinking is wrong or flawed in any way, but it seems to satisfy you in a way that it just can't for me.

Let me get back to you on the contradictions ..

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Atheism has a happy heaven, you stage a false flag attack on your citizens, call it a pearl harbour, then go an murder and rob people in other countries in order to live a rich life and lend money on usury to the looted people, but since it's a scam worse than a pyramid scheme - it begins to eat its own tail and breeds offspring with minds that are more illogical, and criminal, and narrow minded - then the empire falls.
With Islam it's not only happy heaven hereafter, a just earth is created, it is the only empire that has survived through the ages and has continually stood back up after every stumble - read history to realise that the only names in a chain which ultimately prevailed are those of the Prophets who stood on the testimony that there is no other deity except the one God.

@nosmarter - Who do you think God is? i.e - what/who is the most powerful being in your mind?

That Pearl Harbor were to be some sort of false flag conspiracy or not has nothing to do with atheism. As to your question, I don't believe there is any God at all - that's what defines a person as an atheist.

 

[Ümit]

I agree with you on that, Umie. It definitely doesn't exclude God. But it doesn't need the existence of God to explain it, which is why I can't use that as proof. I find it fascinating that as a scientist yourself, you have come to terms with reconciling evolution and the Koran. I find that encouraging. What about humans? Do you believe they evolved also, or did they get created directly by God in the form we are today?

I just gave you a few objections about your idea that without the element of God...it sill makes no sense...so you DO need the existence of God to explain it. Again, you are never going to find proof in the way you are looking for...you need to believe at some point.
But the clues you find around you make it pretty clear.

This topic about evolution also have been discussed here several times. The Quran clearly states that He created humans out of dust, clay and earth...we cannot get around that...but if you think about it...what happens to animal korpses when they die? it decomposes and retuns back to its original form, namely dust clay and earth...just like humans...so, there is definitely a link there...
The Quran also states that Adam as was created without parents...just like it states that Jesus as was born without a father.

We know that God is perfectly capable of making miracles happen...So the possibilities now is that Apes have been evolving until a almost human state, then one day God took that latest human "version" created Adam without parents and placed it on Earth...
something like that must have happened. Islam is not very clear about this...but the clues in science point towards evolution.
maybe in 30 years we find totally different clues and this whole evolution idea was just silly...we do not know...the truth is somewhere in the middle....but right now, it looks like that way.

Not all Muslims agree with me on this point...they rule evolution completely out...to them it sounds like evolution can happen on its own...but I doubt they have realised that it can be both. again...even science can be wrong on this...so we have that uncertain factor on both sides...but if one day science will come with rock hard proof that evolution is a fact...then it wont be contradictory to Islam.

The explanations for the suffering of the innocents, especially small children will always remain a problem for me. I realize that you offer an explanation for this, but to me at least, it still sounds like the "God works in mysterious ways" argument. It's just a perspective issue, I guess. I'm not at all saying your thinking is wrong or flawed in any way, but it seems to satisfy you in a way that it just can't for me.

Let me get back to you on the contradictions ..

I am not saying everyone has his faith, there is nothing we can do about it and we should just accept it.
just like some twisted orthodox Christians who have the crooked idea not to treat their sick child because that is how God wanted to be...they should not intervene or something...and then the child dies of course.
the thing is, you cannot intervene in Gods plans even if you wanted to. you taking your sick child to a hospital and give that kid a proper treatment...that is exactly what God expects you to do...that is not intervening...you still need to make the right choices.
So no, not God works in myterious ways...
you always do what you can to make the world a better place...and what you cannot influence...leave that to God...

A farmer cannot just kneel in front of a blank field and pray to have good crops this year...he must make effort, plant the seeds, water them daily, take care of it...and after all that work he can go pray to God for good crops.

Those innocent children suffer because of selfish individuals making the wrong decisions...what do you expect from God? to send a lightning bolt onto pigs that are about to abuse a child?

 

[Abz2000]

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That Pearl Harbor were to be some sort of false flag conspiracy or not has nothing to do with atheism. As to your question, I don't believe there is any God at all - that's what defines a person as an atheist.

Of course it's everything to do with Godlessness, since atheism is built upon lies and greed, the fact that the truth of Allah's existence and that of His messengers is HIDDEN and LIED about by atheist leaders in plain sight is not simply evidence - but PROOF that atheism is orwellian falsehood - and that atheists are knowing falsehood accepting doublethinking orwellian dupes in DENIAL.
The whole construct of atheism is built on falsehood and blatant denial of facts, and on censorship based on unjust lies and attempting to drag people to corruption and infidelity - and to try and keep them in it.
The events that take place globally and the fact that atheists depend upon constructs of allegory alone in attempts to obscure the facts - are proof of this fact.
That's why atheists accept false gods such as donald trump and elizabeth who implicitly own them.

 

[Alamgir]

As for the Quran .. maybe it's just me, but I did come across contradictions. Maybe not as many as the Christian bible, but enough for me to suspect there may have been quite a bit of human involvement in its writing. Maybe I have to read more still, but I can't say the book is convincing to me as proof. At least no more than other religious books, anyway. I'm not saying that I know it's wrong or anything because I don't. I'm just saying I'm not seeing the level of evidence you and others see.

As to the morality, I see where you're coming from here too. I would agree to the plausibility of the test. Of course, make me lose my money and see if I still remain honest, or tempt me with an affair and see if I'm able to remain true to my vows, heck make me go blind or lose my lims and see if I'm still faithful - sure I can see that. What I can't see is why small children need to die horrible deaths, for example. My brother in law is a policeman and he witnessed some horrific things that I wish he had never told me about. The ones that bothered me the most and the ones that really affected him psychologically were seeing small children being victimized. I've never heard of a good explanation for why any God would allow such a thing. The children are surely too young to be put to a test like that and to react with anything other than abject terror and despair before dying. I don't expect an answer to this from any theologian of any faith - this has been a nearly insurmountable problem despite many religious scholars bravely tackling this issue. I'm just saying that this is one reason why I don't believe there is a God.

I apologize in advance if this seems morbid, but I didn't know of any other way to express it.

I guarantee whatever contradictions you think you found are non-existent, many Islamic websites online discuss and refute such allegations. You can also ask questions on forums like this so we can clear such misconceptions.

This is why it is best to read the Quran with a tafsir, otherwise you might not understand it properly.

The whole "world is evil so there is no God" argument has been refuted numerous times:

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/is-god-merciful-islams-response-to-evil-suffering/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2xSZMDAx8E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNtz5wgnopQ

 

[nosmarter]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

 

[Alamgir]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

Of course, things like this are very subjective and not at all objective, but that's why I don't consider it a valid argument made by Atheists.

 

[Zafran]

Christianity in its new form has a happy heaven.
If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved and lead a happy life in heaven.
if you do not believe, then nothing happens..you just die and parish...disappear...but no hell.

Hinduism has a happy heaven.
If you live a good life, then you reincarnate as a better person higher in rank...if not, a lower rank...you keep reincarnating in this world untill you reach the highest rank, and after that you will reach nirvana and you won't reincarnate anymore.

No Christianity does have hell - especially Catholicism. If you reject divinity of Christ you go to hell. Hinduism and Buddhism have Karma - so if you do bad you reincarnate into something lower which would increase suffering. No religion has a happy heaven only that was my point, they balance it out with retribution for evil by some sort of punishment or consequences for bad actions.

 

[happymuslim]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

I see why you think this world is unfair, and that makes sense from the way you see it. But your missing the there side of the equation. You know how in an equation you have to balance it out on the other side of the equal sign? So this life is like one side of the equation, you may see poverty and struggle here, and injustice, but the Justice is to be taken care of on the day of judgment which completes the equation. That's how we Muslims see it and it is actually Justice, some other beliefs don't believe in the day of judgment so your argument would win over them, but not in this case.

It's not made up, belief in the afterlife is an article of faith, it's not something Muslims made up to makes everyone feel better.

 

[Ümit]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

You have to see that a little differently nosmarter...This answer is just to address the "contradiction" you see between in "If God is loving and caring, why do people have to suffer?" Just to give you the big picture, and how it works. Islam does not say "we should not despair because the greater the suffering, the greater the reward." Even though that is true, the greater the suffering, the greater the reward, but we should never stop being human. We keep despairing and worrying as long as someone suffers. ...we should aid them where and when possible.

So, why does evil exist and why do innocent people have to suffer? Because this world is a test...and it is just temporary...and if we pass the reward is great...But our test at the same time is to see those people suffering...and to worry, and despair...but also to feel responsible for them and to think that we CAN make a difference with our actions...so to offer them a helping hand...to support them where possible in order to end their pain, etc. etc.

This answer is not meant to take away your worrying or to comfort you. it is not like..."Everything will fall into place in the end, so I do not have to think about them".

You still do what you can do...provide the help you can afford or are possible of...support where you can...and for the part you do not have the capacitiy for leave it to God and to give you little comfort that in the end their suffering will not be in vain.

 

[nosmarter]

Folks, I want to thank you all for your hospitality and your input here. Although I'll continue to drop in to read your posts, I can see that I may have made a mistake in attempting to engage in debates here. Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

Two deleted posts is not many.

 

[nosmarter]

Two deleted posts is not many.

No worries, AabiruSabeel. But those were posts that I think were important. Again, no hard feelings, my friend. I recognize that you certainly do alot of thankless work here and are certainly answerable to all sorts of other people. I don't want to make yours nor anyone's life harder than it needs to be. Either this board is open to points of view that you might disagree with or it's not. If ultimately it's not, then that's fine .. I'd rather not force the issue. Thanks again, AabiruSabeel.

 

[Abz2000]

[MENTION=43323]nosmarter[/MENTION] - please do drop us a hint under your next username - you caught some readers off-guard this time around.

 

[nosmarter]

Haha! Ok, will do!. Take care, Abz2000.

 

[fschmidt]

There is a standard of evidence that I need to accept that something is true - and I'm pretty sure this is the case for all of us for things that don't touch on religion. The evidence I might have for something may not be 100% perfect, but it does have to meet a certain threshold at least. So for example, the existence of Zeus, faeries, unicorns, goblins, and of course God all share the same level of paltry evidence that falls way below any acceptable standards. I can't prove any these things don't exist, but I'm pretty confident that based on the lack of evidence that they actually don't. And trust me, I'm always eager to hear anyone's evidence but as time goes on, I haven't heard anything new anymore.

[...]

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I am really amazed by Muhammad's ability to maintain good manners in the face of repeated insults, and I personally find it difficult to do this. I have been repeatedly insulted on atheist forums and banned from all of them. The reason I was on them is because I used to be atheist myself. My experiences on these forums helped me to reject atheism.

Atheism is a religion founded by Plato. Atheists have blind faith in the idea of absolute truth which Plato put forward. This faith is based on no evidence, it is simply the core faith of Atheism. In addition, Atheists generally believe that truth can be found directly from reason, which is an idea that Plato supported, but is in fact generally wrong as history shows.

I explained the reason for suffering here:

http://www.mikraite.org/Atheism-tp103.html

And my argument for God is here:

http://www.mikraite.org/God-for-Atheists-tp18.html

I wrote these before I learned about Islam, but Islam doesn't really affect these arguments.

 

[Ümit]

Folks, I want to thank you all for your hospitality and your input here. Although I'll continue to drop in to read your posts, I can see that I may have made a mistake in attempting to engage in debates here. Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

Sorry to hear that nosmarter. I really wished we could have some respectful and informative debate here together with each other. Still good to hear that you still are there somewhere in the background.
If you have a question or a comment, please post it, and we will do our best to answer it.
about posts that has been deleted and moderated...I think that is pretty much with every new member.
I remember that some of my posts also have been deleted and moderated...I did so much effort for setting up a good reaction..and then the next day it was gone...and I did not know why.
I think the moderators just need time to get to know you and to trust you...if you continue your stay, you will see that the amount of moderations will get less and less.
Our moderators are perhaps slow in trusting people but I'm sure they are reasonable and with compassion.

Whatever you choose to do, I hope you will find the truth someday (this counts to everyone by the way ).

 

[Studentofdeed]

Often atheists have a personal reason why do not believe in god. It more of an emotional problem. Yes people suffer but they are due to tests. If you want signs that can not be denied, look and study the prophet (SAW) life. Notice every single prophecy he made is coming true. Why is it lit of people are converting to islam? Why did the prophet (SAW) live like a poor man when he could have wealth? Why did he forgive? Why was he victorious? Why was he able to make waves in his community? It is because people knew this man was an honest man who does not lie. If this guy was greedy, liar, or womanizer then it would have been heard from his birth but rather all his life he has been honest and uptight because he was chosen by God. So study this and ask yourself how are is prophecy coming true? How and why does black magic work?

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Meant to say lot ofpeople. Sorry.

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Upright not upright. Sorry again