Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[Trumble]

They all can't wait though to shed civility for elephant gods, cow dung or men gods.. it is really a conundrum to me..

The only conundrum for me is how one person can be so staggeringly two-faced!

Indeed in Islam we're asked to question, reflect and seek knowledge .. very difficult to become of age and reason and simply take things at word value!

the problem is that they'd have to consider their own beliefs from outside and it might cause them a paradigm shift and that is sure to take them out of their comfort zone.

Or indeed yours, it seems...

Have a read at the entire Quran and then come and argue what you know.. what say you?

Well, if you'll forgive me butting in I would say perhaps you might follow your own advice and read, study and thoroughly absorb the Hindu scriptures in their entirety before writing idiotic comments like the one above. And perhaps keep silent on the subject of Hinduism until you have?

 

[Sister Unknown]

Well, if you'll forgive me butting in I would say perhaps you might follow your own advice and read, study and thoroughly absorb the Hindu scriptures in their entirety before writing idiotic comments like the one above. And perhaps keep silent on the subject of Hinduism until you have?

There is no need for that. The Hindu scripture, is the word by?


The historical existence of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is accepted by almost all non-Muslim scholars, including, with few exceptions, the hyper-sceptical ones as well. To give readers a feel of the strength of Muhammad's (peace be upon him) historical existence and its almost universal acceptance, we will provide the example of Patricia Crone, the author of the infamous Hagarism. There have been few as sceptical as Crone in the history and development of Western Islamic studies. In a recent essay entitled, "What do we actually know about Mohammed?", Crone has this to say about the historical existence of Muhammad (peace be upon him):

...we probably know more about Mohammed than we do about Jesus (let alone Moses or the Buddha), and we certainly have the potential to know a great deal more.


She goes on to say:



There is no doubt that Mohammed existed, occasional attempts to deny it notwithstanding. His neighbours in Byzantine Syria got to hear of him within two years of his death at the latest; a Greek text written during the Arab invasion of Syria between 632 and 634 mentions that "a false prophet has appeared among the Saracens" and dismisses him as an impostor on the ground that prophets do not come "with sword and chariot". It thus conveys the impression that he was actually leading the invasions.



Crone says:



.this [Greek text] source gives us pretty irrefutable evidence that he was an historical figure. Moreover, an Armenian document probably written shortly after 661 identifies him by name and gives a recognisable account of his monotheist preaching.



Moreover:



On the Islamic side, sources dating from the mid-8th century onwards preserve a document drawn up between Mohammed and the inhabitants of Yathrib, which there are good reasons to accept as broadly authentic; Mohammed is also mentioned by name, and identified as a messenger of God, four times in the Qur'an.

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/who_auth..._new_testament_

 

[جوري]

The only conundrum for me is how one person can be so staggeringly two-faced!

How so?

Or indeed yours, it seems...

I have indeed and have written of my agnostic years somewhere here on the forum.. if every person would reexamine their beliefs first hand, perhaps we'd all peddle alot less ignorance?

Well, if you'll forgive me butting in I would say perhaps you might follow your own advice and read, study and thoroughly absorb the Hindu scriptures in their entirety before writing idiotic comments like the one above. And perhaps keep silent on the subject of Hinduism until you have?

There is nothing to forgive, since you don't know how much or how little I know.. I know enough to have a complete aversion to it..
you can share your diligent hyper vigilance when I join a Hindu forum and question them about their book.. you know if you were really interested in commenting on idiotic proper!

all the best

 

[Trumble]

There is nothing to forgive, since you don't know how much or how little I know.. I know enough to have a complete aversion to it..

Or maybe you don't know enough not to have a complete aversion to it? There isn't really any way to tell, is there? I'm afraid a great many people think they 'know enough' about Islam to have a complete aversion to it as well.

 

[جوري]

Or maybe you don't know enough not to have a complete aversion to it? There isn't really any way to tell, is there? I'm afraid a great many people think they 'know enough' about Islam to have a complete aversion to it as well.

One can't assess other people's knowledge on such matters.. indeed the 'quest for truth' is a solo journey but as stated prior, if/when I go on a Hindu forum asking them to get out of my face and shove their 'true path' up theirs in as many words as the fellow here has afforded us can you then part with such wisdom..
It doesn't aggrieve nor concern me otherwise how others view Islam and I am personally not going to work over time to change that..

all the best

 

[bhakti]

One can't assess other people's knowledge on such matters.. indeed the 'quest for truth' is a solo journey but as stated prior, if/when I go on a Hindu forum asking them to get out of my face and shove their 'true path' up theirs in as many words as the fellow here has afforded us can you then part with such wisdom..
It doesn't aggrieve nor concern me otherwise how others view Islam and I am personally not going to work over time to change that..

all the best

if 'One can't assess other people's knowledge' then how come there are so many posts criticizing hinduism here? If you feel the need to diss other religions to glorify your own, it only shows a glaring sense of insecurity in your own religion. Note than I never criticized your god or your prophet but only the need you guys feel to always show your way as the 'ONLY TRUE WAY' to doing things.

I clearly mentioned how I'm seeing converters are at every bend of the road and how this attitude inevitably leads to unwanted frustration, anger and religious tension in society culminating in violence (There are even google ads everywhere on the internet calling for conversion for God's sake!). You simply can't deny the fact about Quran being pushed into my face all the time. You can't say 'quit this forum and we won't push Quran at you'. And to express my disgust at this is why I said what I said. However, somehow the people posting on this thread assume 'aggressive conversion' to mean 'conversion by the sword'. Or probably they are doing that coz that is more convenient to refute?

Oh and btw, Hinduism never claims to be the ONLY TRUE WAY. Brahman manifests in different forms to suit the needs of the worshipper is Hindu belief.

btw, so many posts overnight? I really seem to have shook the hornet's nest here. I profusely apologize to those whose sensibilities I might have hurt. But the nonsense spewed forth here about Hinduism, I'm sure you would agree, gives me a free hand to put forth my views too.

 

[Tyrion]

Note than I never criticized your god or your prophet but only the need you guys feel to always show your way as the 'ONLY TRUE WAY' to doing things.

This is something I've never understood.... Of course I believe that Islam is the only true way, that's why I'm a Muslim... If someone knows they have found the true way, then it's only expected that they'll preach it as being the only true way.... Are you saying that you want Muslims to go out and say that they think your beliefs are okay? Because we honestly don't think they are. It's because of this fact that many Muslims partake in Dawah, and if I were you, I would learn to appreciate the efforts they're making, instead of complaining. They're not hurting you, and the fact that they're even trying to share Islam with you means that they care.

 

[جوري]

if 'One can't assess other people's knowledge' then how come there are so many posts criticizing hinduism here? If you feel the need to diss other religions to glorify your own, it only shows a glaring sense of insecurity in your own religion. Note than I never criticized your god or your prophet but only the need you guys feel to always show your way as the 'ONLY TRUE WAY' to doing things.

Well simply scroll back a couple of pages and you'll see that Hinduism wasn't on the map here until your good pal brought it on board.. To me personally, it isn't even a doctrine that is worth another glance, but if your pal brought it up, we can only accommodate him and work with what he has written!

I clearly mentioned how I'm seeing converters are at every bend of the road and how this attitude inevitably leads to unwanted frustration, anger and religious tension in society culminating in violence (There are even google ads everywhere on the internet calling for conversion for God's sake!). You simply can't deny the fact about Quran being pushed into my face all the time. You can't say 'quit this forum and we won't push Quran at you'. And to express my disgust at this is why I said what I said. However, somehow the people posting on this thread assume 'aggressive conversion' to mean 'conversion by the sword'. Or probably they are doing that coz that is more convenient to refute?

And I clearly stated that your own clan are guilty of the same, if you don't like ads or other Muslims or religions in general, then simply walk away, purchase yourself a multi-armed blue god shut your doors to those who come knocking!

Oh and btw, Hinduism never claims to be the ONLY TRUE WAY. Brahman manifests in different forms to suit the needs of the worshipper is Hindu belief.

Good for Hinduism.. then why the forced conversions on others? you must have some strong convictions to force folks into holy dung?

The priest had given them cow dung to eat during the ceremony, they said, telling them it would purify them. 'We were doing that, but we were crying,' Jaspina said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/19/orissa-violence-india-christianity-hinduism

btw, so many posts overnight? I really seem to have shook the hornet's nest here. I profusely apologize to those whose sensibilities I might have hurt. But the nonsense spewed forth here about Hinduism, I'm sure you would agree, gives me a free hand to put forth my views too.

Don't like it here don't be a member here? The solution to your problems are rather simple.. one wonders why you insist on creating issues, are you an attention-seeking narcissist perhaps?

all the best

 

[bhakti]

I know enough to have a complete aversion to it..
you can share your diligent hyper vigilance when I join a Hindu forum and question them about their book..

You clearly dont know enough since you are talking about a 'book' here. Hinduism is never as simple as 'here's your book and this is your religion and oh, if you go against this book, you burn in hell'.

The magnanimity of Hinduism is in the fact that even if you diss all scriptures and forget every law or rule, you only need to be completely lost in God consciousness and that is enough. There's no need to follow certain dictats to be a 'TRUE BELIEVER'.

That's the whole point behind the famous 'sarvadharmaan parityajya....' sloka of the Bhagavad Gita which essentially means "Abandon all rules of righteousness and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."

That is also the point behind the beautiful bhaja govindam song of adi shankaracharya.

 

[bhakti]

Well simply scroll back a couple of pages and you'll see that Hinduism wasn't on the map here until your good pal brought it on board.. To me personally, it isn't even a doctrine that is worth another glance, but if your pal brought it up, we can only accommodate him and work with what he has written!

Simply not true. KV replied with an opinion on Mo. Someone said KV's statements means a God exists. KV clarified with what exactly Advaita Vedanta is about. And someone thought it good to ridicule Advaita and start nitpicking.

And I clearly stated that your own clan are guilty of the same, if you don't like ads or other Muslims or religions in general, then simply walk away, purchase yourself a multi-armed blue god shut your doors to those who come knocking!

That's laughable at best. There's no way to escaping Islam ads and copies of Quran. Both you and I know that. And there you go dissing Hindu Gods again. Why the cheapness and the denial in understanding the Gods as beautiful manifestations?

Good for Hinduism.. then why the forced conversions on others? you must have some strong convictions to force folks into holy dung? The priest had given them cow dung to eat during the ceremony, they said, telling them it would purify them. 'We were doing that, but we were crying,' Jaspina said.

How many times am I to tell you that's a reaction. You are just repearing yourself and I'm bored. Have you read about the previous happenings that instigated these incidents? And Hinduism expressly condemns conversion for this very reason. I would like to hear you say the same about Islam.

Don't like it here don't be a member here? The solution to your problems are rather simple.. one wonders why you insist on creating issues, are you an attention-seeking narcissist perhaps?

Two facetedness again. You could diss Hinduism coz 'if your pal brought it up, we can only accommodate him'. But when I question your beliefs in response to your nonsense on Hinduism I'm an attention-seeking narcissist. A typical reaction at best.

 

[جوري]

You clearly dont know enough since you are talking about a 'book' here. Hinduism is never as simple as 'here's your book and this is your religion and oh, if you go against this book, you burn in hell'.

akin to a novel in my opinion- and as you have pointed out, there is no guidance therein, so what is the purpose? merely to subscribe to some ailing philosophy even if by force?

The magnanimity of Hinduism is in the fact that even if you diss all scriptures and forget every law or rule, you only need to be completely lost in God consciousness and that is enough. There's no need to follow certain dictats to be a 'TRUE BELIEVER'.

Is this 'God's consciousness' the same one that dictates a caste system and forced conversions in cow dung? Is this how one gets lost in 'God's consciousness'.. is there in fact a point to that?

That's the whole point behind the famous 'sarvadharmaan parityajya....' sloka of the Bhagavad Gita which essentially means "Abandon all rules of righteousness and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."

When we abandon righteousness then what is left?

That is also the point behind the beautiful bhaja govindam song of adi shankaracharya.

aha.. good to know

all the best

 

[جوري]

Simply not true. KV replied with an opinion on Mo. Someone said KV's statements means a God exists. KV clarified with what exactly Advaita Vedanta is about. And someone thought it good to ridicule Advaita and start nitpicking.

It is in fact quite true, his interjection in post # 77 has set the whole thing in motion. He offered an opinion on what he thought Islam is, as sophomoric as his opinion was and we merely commented on the unbridgeable disparity and complete lack of reconciliation of what he said with the known world!

That's laughable at best. There's no way to escaping Islam ads and copies of Quran. Both you and I know that. And there you go dissing Hindu Gods again. Why the cheapness and the denial in understanding the Gods as beautiful manifestations?

Then gouge your eyes out and damage your ear drums, surely that will bring you closer to your goal? You think bathing in cow dung is a beautiful manifestation of God-- That is up to you, I deign to help no one who can't bestow dignity upon himself!

How many times am I to tell you that's a reaction. You are just repearing yourself and I'm bored. Have you read about the previous happenings that instigated these incidents? And Hinduism expressly condemns conversion for this very reason. I would like to hear you say the same about Islam.

You are in no position to question Islam! unfortunately for you the incidents are too numerous to be swept under some rug and the details are frankly quite disturbing!
If you are bored, then go bathe in cow dung and get closer to your gods consciousness? we are not here for your entertainment- I consider it a waste to engage you all together for more reasons than I care to mention!

Two facetedness again. You could diss Hinduism coz 'if your pal brought it up, we can only accommodate him'. But when I question your beliefs in response to your nonsense on Hinduism I'm an attention-seeking narcissist. A typical reaction at best.

See previous two responses-- Again, how does one reason sensibilities with cow-dung bathing heathens who feign to value principles which they are guilty of breaching?
we are not standing on the same platform, and I don't think enough of you to offer you more than has been offered thus far!

all the best

 

[bhakti]

Oh come on. All you are doing is take cheap shots at me in attempt at scoring brownie points. I am yet to see one calm refutation from your side.

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Vedas explain that dung from cows is different from all other forms of excrement. Indian culture insists that if one comes in contact with the stool of any other animal, they must immediately take a bath. Even after passing stool oneself, bathing is necessary. But the cow's dung, far from being contaminating, instead possesses antiseptic qualities. This has been verified by modern science. Not only is it free from bacteria, but it also does a good job of killing them. Believe it or not, it is every bit as good an antiseptic as Lysol or Mr. Clean."

See archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/sacred-cow.html

And whats this about bathing in cow dung? lol. That never happens and your claim only reflects the levels you are willing to stoop to in your enthusiasm towards vilifying hinduism. All that I have read that comes anywhere close to your claim is that an extremely small quantity of cow dung used to be mixed with bathing water by the ancients thanks to its antiseptic properties.

Cow dung might sound filthy but its fantastic properties just cannot be disputed.
[/FONT]

 

[جوري]

Oh come on. All you are doing is take cheap shots at me in attempt at scoring brownie points. I am yet to see one calm refutation from your side.

you tickle me.. refutation to what exactly?

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Vedas explain that dung from cows is different from all other forms of excrement. Indian culture insists that if one comes in contact with the stool of any other animal, they must immediately take a bath. Even after passing stool oneself, bathing is necessary. But the cow's dung, far from being contaminating, instead possesses antiseptic qualities. This has been verified by modern science. Not only is it free from bacteria, but it also does a good job of killing them. Believe it or not, it is every bit as good an antiseptic as Lysol or Mr. Clean."

Aha!
I am sure this is hygienic too and safe for children

See archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/sacred-cow.html

Thanks, I don't waste time on sacred dung or rats, or multi-armed gods, or semantics to escape the absurdity of it all for that matter!

And whats this about bathing in cow dung? lol. That never happens and your claim only reflects the levels you are willing to stoop to in your enthusiasm towards vilifying hinduism. All that I have read that comes anywhere close to your claim is that an extremely small quantity of cow dung used to be mixed with bathing water by the ancients thanks to its antiseptic properties.

Aha.. I don't need to vilify Hinduism, I have in fact stated before that we are on the same platform, and I don't wish to descend down to sacred cow dung to be one with god!

Cow dung might sound filthy but its fantastic properties just cannot be disputed.

Ok.. and I am sure there are many like minded individuals out there who share your enthusiasm!

all the best[/FONT]

 

[جوري]

he wants me to refute this level of enlightenment!

 

[Tyrion]

This thread seems to have turned into a mini debate about hinduism I don't even think bhakti has noticed that I made a comment about one of his earlier posts.

 

[جوري]

This is something I've never understood.... Of course I believe that Islam is the only true way, that's why I'm a Muslim... If someone knows they have found the true way, then it's only expected that they'll preach it as being the only true way.... Are you saying that you want Muslims to go out and say that they think your beliefs are okay? Because we honestly don't think they are. It's because of this fact that many Muslims partake in Dawah, and if I were you, I would learn to appreciate the efforts they're making, instead of complaining. They're not hurting you, and the fact that they're even trying to share Islam with you means that they care.

It is interesting you say that, and I wish I shared that sentiment. I prefer that we have better Muslims than more Muslims (but that is just me).. Also I think it is difficult for many of these individuals to shed their customs when they embrace Islam, as a result they incorporate all kinds of nonsense into religion if they enter it half baked.. I don't mean that Islam is a religion of exclusivity, I merely think we should share Islam with folks who have a willingness to accept wholly and completely, and those that do usually find Islam on their own...

maybe it is my personal prejudices but I don't see how da3wa can work with folks that steeped in ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?..

anyway on this note I call it a night..

 

[bhakti]

more nonsense. Every post you make magnifies your ignorance of Hinduism, the vales lily.

Do you think you can generalize ignorance based on the beliefs of a few tribals in a remote corner of India? Let's extend the same logic and call every muslim a terrorist, shall we?

 

[bhakti]

more nonsense. Every post you make magnifies your ignorance of Hinduism, the vales lily.

Do you think you can generalize Hinduism based on the beliefs of a few tribals in a remote corner of India? Let's extend the same logic and call every muslim a terrorist, shall we?

 

[bhakti]

It is interesting you say that, and I wish I shared that sentiment. I prefer that we have better Muslims than more Muslims (but that is just me).. Also I think it is difficult for many of these individuals to shed their customs when they embrace Islam, as a result they incorporate all kinds of nonsense into religion if they enter it half baked.. I don't mean that Islam is a religion of exclusivity, I merely think we should share Islam with folks who have a willingness to accept wholly and completely, and those that do usually find Islam on their own...

maybe it is my personal prejudices but I don't see how da3wa can work with folks that steeped in ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?..

anyway on this note I call it a night..

Beautiful post. Couldnt agree more. It is impossible to understand another religion unless you spend a lifetime studying it. Conversion has ALWAYS led to violence, intolerance and angst. History stands as undeniable proof. Faith is subjective, period.