Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

[Tyrion]

It is interesting you say that, and I wish I shared that sentiment. I prefer that we have better Muslims than more Muslims (but that is just me).. Also I think it is difficult for many of these individuals to shed their customs when they embrace Islam, as a result they incorporate all kinds of nonsense into religion if they enter it half baked.. I don't mean that Islam is a religion of exclusivity, I merely think we should share Islam with folks who have a willingness to accept wholly and completely, and those that do usually find Islam on their own...

maybe it is my personal prejudices but I don't see how da3wa can work with folks that steeped in ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?..

anyway on this note I call it a night..

I actually agree with you for the most part, which is why I typically leave the Da'wa to others... But I still thought I should point out to bhakti the absurd nature of his complaints...

Anyway, since I've got your attention I should take a moment to thank you for your participation in this thread, as well as your other posts in this forum. I haven't been active on this forum until very recently, but I have spent quite a bit of time looking through old threads and your posts have helped me a lot in the past. Just wanted to let you know that your efforts are much appreciated.

Beautiful post. Couldnt agree more. It is impossible to understand another religion unless you spend a lifetime studying it. Conversion has ALWAYS led to violence, intolerance and angst. History stands as undeniable proof. Faith is subjective, period.

Really now?

 

[Trumble]

maybe it is my personal prejudices but I don't see how da3wa can work with folks that steeped in ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?..

Of course it's your personal prejudices. We all have them! But surely you must see many people consider Islam 'ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?'? Or Buddhism, or whatever; both people who follow no religion or those unable or unwilling to vacate that 'comfort zone' you were talking about.

 

[Ramadhan]

Of course it's your personal prejudices. We all have them! But surely you must see many people consider Islam 'ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?'? Or Buddhism, or whatever; both people who follow no religion or those unable or unwilling to vacate that 'comfort zone' you were talking about.

Ah, finally I found trumble here between all the posts.

I wish you'd answered me as to why you agreed with statement few days ago in this thread that affirms in the existence of god, knowing that you don't believe god exists.
This is very intriguing for me to see such development.

 

[Insaanah]

You simply can't deny the fact about Quran being pushed into my face all the time. You can't say 'quit this forum and we won't push Quran at you'.

We can see straight through your childish games here of asking about the Qur'an, then getting a reply and then claiming the Qur'an has been thrown in your face. None of us threw it in your face, you asked for it in your first post. Oh, the innocent "victim"!

And to express my disgust at this is why I said what I said. However, somehow the people posting on this thread assume 'aggressive conversion' to mean 'conversion by the sword'. Or probably they are doing that coz that is more convenient to refute?

Ah, and we see at Dr Zakir Naik's conferences people being forced to convert, do we? In actual fact, many Hindus there come to learn; some revert, some simply learn about Islam, and learn more about what their own scriptures state that they weren't aware of before, but don't revert.

btw, so many posts overnight? I really seem to have shook the hornet's nest here. I profusely apologize to those whose sensibilities I might have hurt.

Sorry to disappoint, but you haven't shaken any nest nor hurt anyone. If anything, we find your childish antics somewhat bemusing!

You clearly dont know enough since you are talking about a 'book' here. Hinduism is never as simple as 'here's your book and this is your religion and oh, if you go against this book, you burn in hell'.

Stick to Hindusim then. No one's forcing you.

The magnanimity of Hinduism is in the fact that even if you diss all scriptures and forget every law or rule, you only need to be completely lost in God consciousness and that is enough. There's no need to follow certain dictats to be a 'TRUE BELIEVER'.

Good for you. Stick to it then. Nobody is forcing you to accept Islam.

How many times am I to tell you that's a reaction. You are just repearing yourself and I'm bored. .[/B]

No one's forcing you to be here and to experience such utter boredom. I'm sure you must have better things to do with your time.

Have you read about the previous happenings that instigated these incidents? And Hinduism expressly condemns conversion for this very reason. I would like to hear you say the same about Islam.

Ah, so if conversion is condemned one cannot become a Hindu? Islam is welcoming to everyone. Black, white or brown, if you revert, you are as true a Muslim as one who was born a Muslim.

Oh come on. All you are doing is take cheap shots at me in attempt at scoring brownie points. I am yet to see one calm refutation from your side.

You conveniently have chosen not to see them.

Do you think you can generalize ignorance based on the beliefs of a few tribals in a remote corner of India? Let's extend the same logic and call every muslim a terrorist, shall we?

You have already called Muslims as those throwing the Quran in peoples' faces and forcing aggressive conversions. You just don't see that you have already extended the same logic many times over and in many posts!

Conversion has ALWAYS led to violence, intolerance and angst.

It might do in Hindusim, but not in Islam, thank Allah.

History stands as undeniable proof.

It certainly does. How many faiths lived in complete security under Muslim rule, in Spain, in Jerusalem and in India (as mentioned by syed_z in a previous post), to mention but a few.

Faith is subjective,

Let's go back and see if that applies to your first posts in this thread, shall we? It either is or it isn't.

period.

I hope you mean that.

Peace.

 

[Trumble]

I wish you'd answered me as to why you agreed with statement few days ago in this thread that affirms in the existence of god, knowing that you don't believe god exists.
This is very intriguing for me to see such development.

I did, post #47. I've just edited it only to highlight some text.

 

[جوري]

more nonsense. Every post you make magnifies your ignorance of Hinduism, the vales lily.

Do you think you can generalize ignorance based on the beliefs of a few tribals in a remote corner of India? Let's extend the same logic and call every muslim a terrorist, shall we?

From what you have shared so far we need to go no further.. besides, why do you need me to validate your beliefs for you?.. if you are happy with what you have presented or what is known of your ideology, then continue on that same path and frankly buzz off?

more nonsense. Every post you make magnifies your ignorance of Hinduism, the vales lily.

Do you think you can generalize Hinduism based on the beliefs of a few tribals in a remote corner of India? Let's extend the same logic and call every muslim a terrorist, shall we?

see previous response.. you know some posts are superfluous and are intended more as a cathartic than meaningful words -- that has been in fact most of what you have written here, but at some point it comes down to taking up bandwidth on nonsense!
feel free to call every Muslim a terrorist by the way, you have my full approval!

Beautiful post. Couldnt agree more. It is impossible to understand another religion unless you spend a lifetime studying it. Conversion has ALWAYS led to violence, intolerance and angst. History stands as undeniable proof. Faith is subjective, period.

Indeed, I only need to look at what you have done to christian and Muslim groups to understand the depth of your zealousness.. one wishes it were for something more worthwhile, than heathenism, rats and dung though!

Of course it's your personal prejudices. We all have them! But surely you must see many people consider Islam 'ignorance, superstitions and bizarre customs?'? Or Buddhism, or whatever; both people who follow no religion or those unable or unwilling to vacate that 'comfort zone' you were talking about.

Trumble, surely you must know that 'tolerance' doesn't mean espousal of other people's ideas or lulling them into the comfort of believing that their customs/ideals/beliefs are somehow worth our approval for the mere purpose of having our own religion tolerated.. firstly, they are in fact intolerant and have shown so repeatedly and secondly, patent falsehood and failed philosophies needs to be pointed out isn't that in a sense why you are here, to 'debunk' Islamic falsehood, thirdly their beliefs are a danger to themselves and to others, if nothing else at all for the mere spread of disease and the plague through excrement and rats if not downright reactive forced conversions of which the fellow here is so eager to pin on others!


Political correctness can only take you so far, if others are willing to live tolerant of others no more no less than that, then that is more than welcome, and if it isn't the case then let it be an all out war!

all the best

 

[K.Venugopal]

Lily considers cow dung to be about the worst thing that can happen to anyone, never mind Bhakti's exposition on its medicinal value. I wonder if he is aware that Mohammad had highly recommended camel’s urine for its medicinal properties. Similarly, Muslims condemn idol worship but are unable to explain why Mohammad kissed the black stone in Kaaba and even today Muslims follow suit when they visit Mecca. Many of the rituals followed in Mecca during the Hajj are done at no other mosque anywhere in the world at any time but at every Hindu temple all over the world every day. It would only be fair that Muslims respect Hinduism a bit more for, if nothing, Hinduism is an older religion than Islam. Is it not a tradition in the East to respect the elders?

 

[Insaanah]

Similarly, Muslims condemn idol worship but are unable to explain why Mohammad kissed the black stone in Kaaba and even today Muslims follow suit when they visit Mecca. Many of the rituals followed in Mecca during the Hajj are done at no other mosque anywhere in the world at any time but at every Hindu temple all over the world every day.

When Islam is against idol worship why do the Muslims worship, and bow down to the Kaaba in their prayer?

Answer:

Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.

It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

“We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.” [Al-Qur’an 2:144]

1. Islam believes in fostering unity
For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west.

2. Kaaba is at the Centre of the World Map
The Muslims were the first people to draw the map of the world. They drew the map with the south facing upwards and north downwards. The Kaaba was at the centre. Later, western cartographers drew the map upside down with the north facing upwards and south downwards. Yet, Alhamdullilah the Kaaba is at the centre of the world map.

3. Tawaaf around Kaaba for indicating one God
When the Muslims go to Masjid-e-Haram in Makkah, they perform tawaaf or circumambulation round the Kaaba. This act symbolizes the belief and worship of One God, since, just as every circle has one centre, so also there is only one Allah (swt) worthy of worship.

4. Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)
Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).
According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.

5. People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

Peace.

 

[K.Venugopal]

May I also add that Islam started with Mohammad going up the mountains, meditating and discovering his higher consciousness, just as Hindus do even now? Maybe if Islam encouraged meditation, it too, like Hinduism, would have declared that there are many ways to God.

 

[bhakti]

Indeed, I only need to look at what you have done to christian and Muslim groups to understand the depth of your zealousness..

Here's some readin material for you: stephen-knapp.com/christian_persecution_in_india.htm

and this too: hindu.com/2008/11/22/stories/2008112255220600.htm

and this: pakistaniat.com/2006/10/11/pakistan-hindu-temple-karachi/

Oh and do I have to copy paste church bombings in Malaysia by the Muslims? Lik I have said before, I can copy paste a million examples of Islamic violence. However, that proves nothing.

Zakir Naik freely preaches Islam in India. Do you have any idea what would happen if a Hindu did that in, say, Saudi Arabia?

one wishes it were for something more worthwhile, than heathenism, rats and dung though!

Come on..show some class.

"The apparent multiplication of gods is bewildering at the first glance, but you soon discover that they are the same GOD. There is always one uttermost God who defies personification. This makes Hinduism the most tolerant religion in the world, because its one transcendent God includes all possible gods. In fact Hinduism is so elastic and so subtle that the most profound Methodist, and crudest idolater, are equally at home with it. Indian philosophers' subtleties make most of the great European philosophers look like schoolboys." George Bernard Shaw" - George Bernard Shaw

"After a study of some forty years and more of the great religions of the world, I find none so perfect , none so scientific, none so philosophical and none so spiritual that the great religion known by the name of Hinduism. Make no mistake, without Hinduism, India has no future. Hinduism is the soil in to which India's roots are stuck and torn out of that she will inevitably wither as a tree torn out from its place. And if Hindus do not maintain Hinduism who shall save it? If India's own children do not cling to her faith who shall guard it. India alone can save India and India and Hinduism are one." - Annie Besant

"India had the start of the whole world in the beginning of things. She had the first civilization; she had the first accumulation of material wealth; she was populous with deep thinkers and subtle intellects; she had mines, and woods, and a fruitful soul.Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India." - Mark Twain

"Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries" - Robert Oppenheimer

"Compared to Islam and Christianity, Hinduism’s doctrines are extraordinarily fluid, and multiform. India deals in images and metaphors. Restless, subtle and argumentative as Hindu thought is, it is less prone than European theology to the vice of distorting transcendental ideas by too stringent definition. It adumbrates the indescribable by metaphors and figures. It is not afraid of inconsistencies which may illustrate different aspects of the infinite, but it rarely tries to cramp the divine within the limits of a logical phrase." - Sir Charles Elliot

"To the philosophers of India, however, Relativity is no new discovery, just as the concept of light years is no matter for astonishment to people used to thinking of time in millions of kalpas, (A kalpa is about 4,320,000 years). The fact that the wise men of India have not been concerned with technological applications of this knowledge arises from the circumstance that technology is but one of innumerable ways of applying it." - Alan Watts

"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seem puny and trivial" - Henry David Thoreau

"

I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-Gita. It was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us." - Ralph Emerson

"India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all. Nothing should more deeply shame the modern student than the recency and inadequacy of his acquaintance with India....This is the India that patient scholarship is now opening up like a new intellectual continent to that Western mind which only yesterday thought civilization an exclusive Western thing." - Will Durant

Whose words carry more weight? Yours or those of these great men and women?

 

[جوري]

Lily considers cow dung to be about the worst thing that can happen to anyone, never mind Bhakti's exposition on its medicinal value. I wonder if he is aware that Mohammad had highly recommended camel’s urine for its medicinal properties. Similarly, Muslims condemn idol worship but are unable to explain why Mohammad kissed the black stone in Kaaba and even today Muslims follow suit when they visit Mecca. Many of the rituals followed in Mecca during the Hajj are done at no other mosque anywhere in the world at any time but at every Hindu temple all over the world every day. It would only be fair that Muslims respect Hinduism a bit more for, if nothing, Hinduism is an older religion than Islam. Is it not a tradition in the East to respect the elders?

camel urine isn't used as a religious ritual to get closer to the gods, anymore than pregnant mare urine (premarin) or postmenopausal urine commercially available Humegon (Organon), HMG Massone (Massone), Metrodin (Serono), Metrodin HP (Serono), Pergonal (Serono) and Progonadyl (Elea) are used as an initiation right to get into gods consciousness. What it is used like the two other preparations are medicinal reasons.
Whether the black stone exists or not has no bearing on the religion of Islam, and in fact if you have strained so hard to find a morsel to dig your teeth into, you'd have learned that, the black stone holds no value whatsoever going back to the days of the prophet. What it does count for is a starting point around the kaaba so folks can keep track of their journey around, as you may know a circle has no beginning as such the stone can serve as a starting point for the count!


I can accept that this is an ideology or religion you love, but I don't have to be ok with it dung, rats and all!
all the best

 

[جوري]

May I also add that Islam started with Mohammad going up the mountains, meditating and discovering his higher consciousness, just as Hindus do even now? Maybe if Islam encouraged meditation, it too, like Hinduism, would have declared that there are many ways to God.

That is a belief that you hold and you are so entitled, but that isn't a belief that Muslims hold.

The Noble Quran already nullifies your beliefs with regard to islam and leaves you with something to ponder:


مَا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ مِنْ وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ ۚ إِذًا لَذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَٰهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلَا بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{91}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 23:91] Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.

A god for rain and a god for drought, a god for harvest, a god for famine, would they get along? If that is the result of meditation then how pitiable!

all the best
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[K.Venugopal]

When Islam is against idol worship why do the Muslims worship, and bow down to the Kaaba in their prayer?

Muslims claim they are against idol worship. The irony is that Hindus, who are well known idol worshippers, can grow out of their idol worship by moving from duality to non-duality. Muslims are incapable of being anything other than idol worshipers for they consider Allah to be separate from them and therefore an objective reality to their subjective reality. Idol worship is nothing other than the worship of an object (anything that is outside us, the subject, is an object). The need for worship itself ends only when the subject is discovered.

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you”.

Obviously Umar did not know what Mohammad knew.

People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan. At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

The practice of standing atop the Kaaba was only at the beginning of Islam, when probably in the first flush of having destroyed the idols within the Kaaba, the Muslims wanted to express that nothing made of stone is sacred anymore. But someone obviously considered the blackstone sacred and even today is revered with a kiss and no one today stands atop the Kaaba because it houses the sacred blackstone as it once housed over 360 idols.

Muslims say that whatever they do, they only worship Allah, nothing and no one else. But is it not a fact that in a Hadith Mohammad said that even sex is worship if done properly? So though Muslims worship only Allah, it is not as if this worship does not extend to other activities in day-to-day living. This is precisely the position of the Hindus. Though they worship the ultimate, they have the liberty to focus their worship on tangible representations of the ultimate.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Whether the black stone exists or not has no bearing on the religion of Islam .. the black stone holds no value whatsoever going back to the days of the prophet. What it does count for is a starting point around the kaaba so folks can keep track of their journey around, as you may know a circle has no beginning as such the stone can serve as a starting point for the count!

Lily, are you a "Quran only" Muslim? Don't you know that the blackstone was once of the purest white colour while in heaven and it became black after it was installed in Kaaba because it started absorbing the sins of the Muslims? Also, don't you know that on the day of Judgement, the balckstone will testify the sincerity of believers? The blackstone obviously means a lot to the Muslims because when Kaaba was attacked and the blackstone stone taken away, it was retrieved and the stone, which was then broken, was banded together to remain intact. Don't let the blackstone hear you say it is a valueless thing. Or has it already heard you?

 

[جوري]

Lily, are you a "Quran only" Muslim? Don't you know that the blackstone was once of the purest white colour while in heaven and it became black after it was installed in Kaaba because it started absorbing the sins of the Muslims? Also, don't you know that on the day of Judgement, the balckstone will testify the sincerity of believers? The blackstone obviously means a lot to the Muslims because when Kaaba was attacked and the blackstone stone taken away, it was retrieved and the stone, which was then broken, was banded together to remain intact? Don't let the blackstone hear you say it is a valueless thing. Or has it already heard you?

I am not a Quran only Muslim, but I challenge you to bring me the hadith or Quranic verse that states that the black stone is of utmost value to Muslims and no more than I afore mentioned!

I'll be waiting!

all the best

 

[bhakti]

I can accept that this is an ideology or religion you love, but I don't have to be ok with it dung, rats and all!
all the best

come on....again the dung n rats thing!

Please dont denigrate an entire religion by focusing on a few peripheral aspects. Dig deeper into the core values and ideals. This is a very humble request. I like you and like your loyalty towards Islam. I love muslims, MAKE NO MISTAKE. The kind of concentrated bhakti/devotion you have towards Allah is remarkable. I only dont approve of 'hell for unbelievers' and 'conversion' be it Hindu or Muslim coz it invariably leads to unfortunate build up of communal tension in the community of the converted. I have a really good Muslim friend and he's an awesomely cool guy to hang out with n all, believe it or not!

My entire outburst (that I even repent, but only a little )was because someone sonehow found it okay to criticize the Vedantic views with absolutely no understanding of the concept of Idol worship etc.

nyways, I'm off for now my friend. Need to catch a late night movie

 

[aadil77]

It would only be fair that Muslims respect Hinduism a bit more for, if nothing, Hinduism is an older religion than Islam. Is it not a tradition in the East to respect the elders?

Just to clarify, hindu's seem to bring up that point quite alot, well its false - islam was around since the first man on earth - prophet Adam and he was a muslim. The first set of beliefs and religion on earth was islamic monotheism. Islam has always been around its just been given different names because of location and because of different prophets who preached it.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I am not a Quran only Muslim, but I challenge you to bring me the hadith or Quranic verse that states that the black stone is of utmost value to Muslims and no more than I afore mentioned!

What about Mohammad's hair, which is venerated in a mosque in Kashmir? Would you tell me that it is not important till I quote a Hadith or a Quranic verse on its importance? When it was stolen many years back, there were major riots in Kashmir and protests in other parts of India. Fortunately it was retrieved before long and peace returned.

 

[M.I.A.]

Lily, are you a "Quran only" Muslim? Don't you know that the blackstone was once of the purest white colour while in heaven and it became black after it was installed in Kaaba because it started absorbing the sins of the Muslims? Also, don't you know that on the day of Judgement, the balckstone will testify the sincerity of believers? The blackstone obviously means a lot to the Muslims because when Kaaba was attacked and the blackstone stone taken away, it was retrieved and the stone, which was then broken, was banded together to remain intact. Don't let the blackstone hear you say it is a valueless thing. Or has it already heard you?

i dont get it,
you have more knowlage of islam then i do but in your posts you make it a point to introduce fallacy....which even i can understand clearly,without even having to know the history of my religion....its very odd.

 

[aadil77]

What about Mohammad's hair, which is venerated in a mosque in Kashmir? Would you tell me that it is not important till I quote a Hadith or a Quranic verse on its importance? When it was stolen many years back, there were major riots in Kashmir and protests in other parts of India. Fortunately it was retrieved before long and peace returned.

No it is not important, there is no proof for the authenticity of those relics so they should not be venerated, its just unfortunate that some asian muslims can cause riots over things such as celebrating the prophets birthday and his hair when there is no islamic proof for any of them.