Now France bans Muslims from praying outside mosques

[Al-Mufarridun]

abz, don't get melodramatic. I know perfectly well what mosques in the West are like. You live in London, I live in Helsinki. If you think it's bad there, you have no idea of what it's like here. In all of Finland, there is only one purpose-built mosque. The rest are just various spaces that have been converted to the purpose, some fitting it better than others. Some of the mosques I've been to compete with the original Medinan mosque in simplicity.

The fact remains though, the sidewalk belongs to everyone, and has been built for a specific purpose. While I'm sure quite a few are against prayer on the sidewalk out of sheer bigotry, the fact remains, prayers on the sidewalk causes a real obstruction for pedestrians and people trying to get in and out of buildings. If we claim the sidewalk to pray on, we are robbing it from the rest of society, which has together paid for it.

There would be a difference if it was about a park, or some other place which is actually built for general hanging around.

Muslims shouldn't pray in the middle of the streets, I agree with you on that 100%. However what is alarming is the reason why this ban is being enforced, it is not to clear the sidewalks for everybody's convenience, rather it is just one part of a systematic effort to wipe out the image of faith, particularly that of Islam, from public life. These steps are just the beginning, secularism is the new state religion in France and it is increasingly evolving into the church of the dark ages.

 

[Futuwwa]

Well, abz, you did encourage me to do "soul-searching", acting as if I was seriously misguided and in need of repentance and clarity simply because I disagreed about a point of public policy, which is kind of to give the issue more drama than it warrants :hmm:

Nativity plays are, like, how often? Once a year. Foreign head of state visits that require special traffic arrangements are even rarer. If the drunks are seriously clogging up the street to an extent where they obstruct transportation, sure, you have an issue against them. But the only thing that implies is that they shouldn't be allowed to do that either. Not that everyone should be able to obstruct traffic in an obstructionist free-for-all.

 

[جوري]

there are over 5 mil Muslims in France.. God knows anyway how many of them are praying Muslims but it is obvious by the speed these laws are passed and the absurdity of them, that they want to make Muslims (practicing) most unwelcome.. I don't know any Muslims that pray in the middle of a busy intersections or on coming traffic.. I think we all on the lowest common denominator want a quiet safe place if not in jama3a for prayer and introspection.. perhaps some don't like to pray in shady back alleys because they don't know what freak or hoodlum will attack them..

 

[Futuwwa]

Well, based on what I've read about this issue, the overflowing salah crowds do tend to block entrances to buildings and make sidewalks impossible to walk through without wading through the praying people.

 

[GuestFellow]

They might as well ban dogs on the streets. Ugh...dogs poo on the streets and it's gross.

 

[جوري]

that's what the french say to justify their bigotry .. sort of like when the Americans pass 27 (to date) anti-sharia bills.. I'd like to know how much of that paranoia and hatred is steeped in some semblance of reality ..

 

[Novice]

Well, based on what I've read about this issue, the overflowing salah crowds do tend to block entrances to buildings and make sidewalks impossible to walk through without wading through the praying people.

Yes, but that is not the primary reason for the ban. The ban must be implemented in order not to, according to the hypocritical right wingers 'hurt the sensitivities of many of our fellow citizens.' Which is complete BS.

 

[joyous fairy]

I get what you guys are saying but if nobody stands against this, dont you think theyll think its ok to ban praying in other places?

If they see that Muslims are ok with them doing those kind of things, they'll think we are a pushover and will accept those kind of laws.

 

[Abz2000]

actually it's quite uplifting - many people have stated how they became interested in Islam after seeing people spilling out of the mosques - it was the devotion and method of prayer that got them curious - as it was with those who watched Abu Bakr.

it definitely made me proud to be a Muslim.

and yes, visiting Makkah and Medina made me feel that it is normal for people to pray on God's earth wherever there is a clean space, people go out of their way in order to make way for a praying believer.

and brother AlMufarridun

Muslims shouldn't pray in the middle of the streets, I agree with you on that 100%.

.
if after reading the hadith
.....for me, the whole earth has been made a mosque and made pure
- wherever a man of my community finds himself when the time of prayer comes, he can pray;......

you said that - then i would suggest it's about time those who want to practice our religion freely set up a system where we can - it's way past due - because this is a definite way of infringing on the freedom of religion simply because the mosques are packing out more and more while other places of worship are getting emptier day by day - to the dismay of Sarkozy.
first they were alarmed by the increasing number of Muslim Ladies wearing hijab, now they're alarmed at the increasing number of Muslims praying? where were these "laws" before - and where do you think this is heading?

the reason they are spilling out is due to the lack of space to accommodate the increasing number of practising Muslims,
it is therefore their right to pray where there is space,
and if it becomes a local convenience issue for the local council - then the local council must ensure they are given ample space to pray at convenient locations.
dhimmis under the Islamic state had that convenience - despite it being an Islamic state.
what is to be said for a state which claims to be neutral on religious issues, yet infringes on the right to freely worship?
are communities then expected to pay taxes without representation?
that was never allowed under the Islamic State.
the Caliph would give the taxes back when an external enemy attacked in fear of breaking the covenant of protection,
not much can be said of the u.n on that issue considering Iraq and Libya were both member states of the u.n and had to sign up to their human rights laws.

when an increasing number of the population want something, the dictators at the head of fake democracies see if they like it and publicize it in order to implement it. or even hire people to make a hoohaa so they can pretend it is widely desired.
however - when it is evident that an increasing number of the population want something which they personally don't like - they create a negative public perception and try to suppress it?

vile indeed are the behests of such democracies if indeed they are called democracies.

they should also pull out of their alliance with the u.s due to it's backward constitution since they see prohibiting the free exercise of religion via suppression as "progressive":

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the government for a redress of grievances"
First Amendment of the US constitution.

 

[Ali Mujahidin]

Let's have some level-headed input on this. The roads, whether in Paris or in Mecca, are meant for cars and not for people to pray on. In Mecca, the jemaah can overflow into the streets for the simple reason that just about everybody who can pray is praying and not driving along the roads. In Paris, not everyone is praying. In fact, there are more people driving on the roads than there are people praying. So what is the problem with praying where praying is supposed to be, which is in the mosque and leave the roads to the cars?

I think there is a tinge of unIslamic arrogance in the attitude of any imam who says that no one can stop people from coming to his mosque to pray and if they overflow into the streets, so be it. There is such a thing in Islam as hikmah. If the jemaah in the area can't afford to get a bigger space for solah, then it simply means that the jemaah there just doesn't have the strength, both spiritually and economically, to be that big.

The example of the Holy Prophet s.a.w. had shown time and again that confrontation is not the way of Islam. The Treaty of Hudaibiyah is worth studying in regard to this matter. Here's a link to an article about this treaty:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/treaty28.html

Sayyidina Abu Bakar r.a. is a great example of a Muslim who is brave enough not to hide his faith. Before we talk about following in his footsteps, let's ask ourselves whether we have the same spiritual strength like him in the first place. I think not! So let's not talk about encouraging anyone to do what he did. It's like telling a toddler to jump into a raging river just because there was a great swimmer who had swum across before. Doesn't seem sensible, right?

I am saying all this not because I don't love Islam. I do love Islam. It is the only love of my life. I will die rather than renounce Islam. Nevertheless that doesn't mean that I am not blind to the fact that many people who claim to be Muslims and who claim to champion the rights of Muslims are actually motivated by some very unIslamic reasons. Reasons like personal feelings of egoism and arrogance, or political agenda, or, worse yet, misguided misinterpretation of Islam.

I am fully aware that my viewpoint on this matter is not in consonance with a number of people here. But then again, I am not here to win a popularity contest, am I?

 

[Karl]

Europe is just a Zionist commie crapper since the fall of Christendom and the age of Kings. The French revolution destroyed France and turned it into a Godless socialist Jew ruled scumhole. Why are Muslims going there? It is a NATO militant homosexual/feminist Axis of Infidel New World Order nation at war with Islam. If you are a boot licking (moderate Muslim) you might survive there for a while but you cannot bend your knee to any one but Allah. So you have dam*ed yourself by being a boot licker and a boot licker of kafirs to boot.

 

[Futuwwa]

Karl, why do you speak about Socialism as if it was an un-Islamic thing?

 

[Abz2000]

nicely put karl

we are living in the age of those who were valued by the Prophet (pbuh) as his brothers - in spite of his companions:
The Prophet alayhi as salam said, “How blessed is partaking in the battle, but there is no
grave more beloved to me than being buried here (in Madina).”
So after the Prophet alayhi salam greeted the people in the graveyard, he said,
“I wish that I could see my brothers.”
The Sahaba said, “Are we not your brothers?”
He said, “No, you are my Sahabah.
But my brothers are those who come after me and believe in me, I wish that I saw them.
I shall await them at the Hawd (pool of water on the day of Judgement).”
They said, “How will you know them at the Hawd if you did not see them?”
Here the Prophet alayhi as salam said, “ Indeed my Ummah shall come on the Day of Judgement ghurran muhajjala.”
And in another narration mentioned by Imam Malik, he said, “Do you not see if you had
stallions that were entirely pure black with no other color, and one that was ghurran muhajjala, would you not recognize it?”
They said, “Yes.”
Then the Prophet alayhi as salam said, “Indeed my Ummah shall come on the Day of Judgement ghurran muhajjala.”
(was he speaking of "the strangers"?)

Here we can pause to reflect on the words of the Prophet, “You are my Sahabah. My brothers will come after me, I wish that I saw them.”
Ibn Abdul Barr mentions almost 30 pages of narrations with a similar meaning, the Prophet said,

“They will come after me, they will believe in me and they did not see me.
One of them wishes that he could see me even if he had to sacrifice all his family and wealth.”

i can understand why 'Jesus (pbuh) was taken up - the children of Israel had failed the test and the kingdom of God was about to be passed to another people.


33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men,
and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures,
The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner:
this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


43Therefore say I unto you,
The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder
.
45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Matthew 21

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month.
Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence);
but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah,
to deny Him,
to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque,
and drive out its members."
Tumult and oppression are worse than fighting.
Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can.
And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter;
they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,
- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Quran 2:217-218

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith,
soon will God produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,
- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters,
fighting in the way of God, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault.
That is the grace of God, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth.
And God encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
Quran 5:54

 

[Abz2000]

Karl, why do you speak about Socialism as if it was an un-Islamic thing?

possibly because Islam is neither capitalism nor socialism - but Islam

ever heard the story of the three blind men who wanted to know how an elephant looked like
they grabbed different parts:
one said it is something thin and flat (the ear)
another said it is thin and long (the tail)
the last one finally said "you're both wrong - it's thick and sturdy like a pillar" (the leg).

the treaty of Hudaybiyah was accepted through looking at the future positive outcomes
- it wasn't based on something that would continue to turn them from their faith.
they made the agreement of peace - and that any who will may ally with the Prophet (pbuh) with no hindrance.
that's when ambassadors were sent all over Arabia without Quraish breathing down their necks or threatening them with isolation, and it even reached the emperors of rome and persia.
it wasn't based on deterioration.

the public call of the oneness of God was made when they were less than a hundred and 'Umar (ra) said - why should we hide our faith
- they just went straight to the sacred mosque despite all the stones thrown at them.
they were a tiny percentage of the population, imagine what the Prophet (pbuh) would have done with a quarter of the earth's population and growing rapidly?
one Muslim nation is falling after another and we are waiting...............
has not the time come for us to raise our heads?[TABLE="width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]8. Their intention is to extinguish Allah.s Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
9. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion,
even though the Pagans may detest (it).
10. O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?-
11. That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons:
That will be best for you, if ye but knew!
12. He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity:
that is indeed the Supreme Achievement.
13. And another (favour will He bestow,) which ye do love,- help from Allah and a speedy victory. So give the Glad Tidings to the Believers.
14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples,
"Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah."
Said the disciples, "We are Allah.s helpers!"
then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies,
and they became the ones that prevailed.
Quran 61:8-14[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Darth Ultor]

Abz, you're alright and all, but could you summarize your posts? Usually, if I see a long copy-paste job, I just skim through it unless it's a story.

 

[Futuwwa]

possibly because Islam is neither capitalism nor socialism - but Islam
[TABLE="width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

That does not imply that it is unislamic. The above is an example of the false dilemma fallacy.

We are commanded by Allah to provide for everyone in the Ummah. We are forbidden from living as parasites from the work of others. Caliph Abu Bakr went to war over the refusal of some tribes to pay zakah, declaring them apostates because of it. Quite left-wing radical.

Workers of the world, la ilaha illa Allah!

 

[Abz2000]

if i can't back up what i say - i try to avoid saying it.
i believe it works better to allow people to look at the sources,
let those who will read it - let those who will pass by it.
it clarifies the point and leaves less room for people to argue on a single subject.

8. Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment,-
9. (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah. for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
Quran 22;8-9

yep - that was a copy paste too.

 

[Darth Ultor]

Touche. Though I generally put my sources (if I have to write something that requires research) as links. But to each his own.

 

[Abz2000]

islam has a free market - unlike communism and fake capitalism.

In Islam the market is to be free and permitted to respond to the natural laws of supply and demand.
Thus, when the prices became high in the Prophet's time and people asked him to fix prices for them, he replied,
Allah is the One Who fixes prices, Who withholds, Who gives lavishly, and Who provides,
and I hope that when I meet Him none of you will have a claim against me for any injustice with regard to blood or property.
(Reported by Ahmad, Abu Daoud, al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, al-Dari and Abu Y'ala.)


yet - when times became tough he allowed the pooling together of resources only in a desperate situation:

Book 1, Number 0041:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira: We were accompanying the Apostle (may peace be upon him) in a march (towards Tabuk). He (the narrator) said: The provisions with the people were almost depleted. He (the narrator) said: (And the situation became so critical) that they (the men of the army) decided to slaughter some of their camels. He (the narrator) said: Upon this Umar said: Messenger of Allah, I wish that you should pool together what has been left out of the provisions with the people and then invoke (the blessings of) Allah upon it. He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) did it accordingly. He (the narrator) said: The one who had wheat in his possession came there with wheat. He who had dates with him came there with dates. And Mujahid said: He who possessed stones of dates came there with stones. I (the narrator) said: What did they do with the date-stones. They said: They (the people) sucked them and then drank water over them. He (the narrator said): He (the Holy Prophet) invoked the blessings (of Allah) upon them (provisions). He (the narrator) said: (And there was such a miraculous increase in the stocks) that the people replenished their provisions fully. He (the narrator) said: At that time he (the Holy Prophet) said: I bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am His messenger. The bondsman who would meet Allah without entertaining any doubt about these (two fundamentals) would enter heaven.

​

...........it was distributed by the Messenger of God - not by a corrupt politician.
and things went back to normal immediately afterwards,

but we are straying from the topic...........

 

[Futuwwa]

Lack of legislated price control does not in itself make a capitalistic free market economy.

That hadith isn't sahih. The invisible hand of the free market is really the hand of Allah? I'm not buying that. Sounds like something out of the mouth of Republican Jesus.