Of what use or value is this "Comparative Religion" section?

[Woodrow]

The thread title is a question I often get asked in emails. PMs and direct conversation.

I will take this opportunity to explain in my own opinion which is not an "Official Stance" of the Forum and may not reflect the opinion of other staff members or the forum owners.

I see this section as being a very valuable feature of LI and one I personally find useful. Let me begin by stating what this section is not.

1. It is not a section to appease non-Muslims and provide them with the opportunity to promote their beliefs.

2, It is not a shooting gallery for us Muslims to use to bash the beliefs of others.

Violation of either of those statements are the most common reasons threads are deleted and infractions given.

The purpose of this section can be summed up in one word:

TRUTH

Truth in the concept of learning what we each believe and not what we each think the other person believes. We need to accept the fact we will have difference and we each need to learn to address those differences with fact and not with personal judgment about the character of the person.

This section is an opportunity for each of us to learn to disagree with others in a peaceful manner. We need to disagree based on fact, not our personal opinion about another.

Also keep in mind it is impossible to convert a person to another belief by proving their belief is wrong. There are over 4,000 named major religions currently in use. Of these there are also uncountable divisions, sects and denominations giving us many hundreds of thousands of religions. To prove any one religion wrong only says that one, some or none of the others are true. We can not prove we are right by proving somebody else is wrong. It is pointless to prove person A is wrong, we need to prove we are right. Bashing another person's belief is seldom if ever effective Da'wah. I would say it is more likely to encourage a person to become an atheist.

Let us all learn to disagree in peace and base our disagreements on facts, not emotional outbursts.

 

[glo]

Thank you for that clarification, Woodrow.

I have had many very useful and informative conversations in this section.
I have learned much about the beliefs and world views of those with other beliefs and none.

However, in my own personal view there are many, many very negative, even aggressive, comments made in this section - and most commonly (perhaps not surprising, given the membership of this forum) by Muslims against non-Muslim beliefs.

I may be biased in my perception - and if I am, please forgive me, I am only human after all ...
But it has been my experience that whilst mods are pretty vigilant when it comes to reinforcing rule No1, they seem to be quite lenient when it comes to reinforcing rule No2.

1. It is not a section to appease non-Muslims and provide them with the opportunity to promote their beliefs.

2, It is not a shooting gallery for us Muslims to use to bash the beliefs of others.

Perhaps I am too sensitive, but many threads and posts seem to be written with the very intention of ridiculing or attacking or bashing faiths other than Islam. :hmm:

I love the peaceful and respectful discussions, which are going on here, and they have been a real blessing to me.
I wish everybody shared your own attitude. This section would be a more peaceful and enjoyable place!

I feel extremely strongly that an understanding of other faiths and an acceptance of the fact that other people may have beliefs different to our own is central to a peaceful and harmonious community/society. That doesn't mean we have to agree with their beliefs!

I asked somebody from the ChristianMuslimForum how they managed to discuss a contentious topic such as Jesus' resurrection in their forum.
His reply was this:

There is no practical and honest alternative to agreeing to disagree, being able to disagree without it disturbing relationships is very powerful.

Thank you, Woodrow and others, for your continued input and effort into this section!

 

[Pygoscelis]

But it has been my experience that whilst mods are pretty vigilant when it comes to reinforcing rule No1, they seem to be quite lenient when it comes to reinforcing rule No2.

Perhaps I am too sensitive, but many threads and posts seem to be written with the very intention of ridiculing or attacking or bashing faiths other than Islam. :hmm:

And that some posters here post only for that reason, as if they were defenders of the faith on a mission to trash talk the infidels. Its to be expected though on a forum with a host and guest side. You'll find the same on the christian boards, and indeed on the atheist boards, and on political boards for that matter. Its human nature I think, to have an ingroup and have certain members of it lash out against outgroup members. I dare say its human nature.

 

[marwen]

I really find that section really important, and it must be in the core of an islamic forum, because I believe Islam is not intended just to a minority or just to muslims, Islam is addressed to all humans. And one of the values of islam is to talk with others and to discuss with them in a civilised manner the different arguments of each side :

{ادع إلى سبيل ربك بالحكمة والموعظة الحسنة وجادلهم بالتي هي أحسن} [_النحل: 125]
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." 16:125 [Yusuf Ali Trans.]

It's good for muslims to see the opposite opinions and the arguments of non-muslims too.

 

[Woodrow]

And that some posters here post only for that reason, as if they were defenders of the faith on a mission to trash talk the infidels. Its to be expected though on a forum with a host and guest side. You'll find the same on the christian boards, and indeed on the atheist boards, and on political boards for that matter. Its human nature I think, to have an ingroup and have certain members of it lash out against outgroup members. I dare say its human nature.

You do bring up a good point. There will most likely, always be some feeling of separation and there is some actual separation. This need not be a bad thing or even an issue. But, it does point out the need for all of us to do our best to disagree about issues without attacking the person.

 

[Ramadhan]

However, in my own personal view there are many, many very negative, even aggressive, comments made in this section - and most commonly (perhaps not surprising, given the membership of this forum) by Muslims against non-Muslim beliefs.

Maybe the muslims are only exposing the real truth of non-muslims beliefs, and that makes you feel uncomfortable?

I may be biased in my perception - and if I am, please forgive me, I am only human after all ...
But it has been my experience that whilst mods are pretty vigilant when it comes to reinforcing rule No1, they seem to be quite lenient when it comes to reinforcing rule No2.

Perhaps I am too sensitive, but many threads and posts seem to be written with the very intention of ridiculing or attacking or bashing faiths other than Islam. :hmm:

You are being too sensitive.
please read my above statement.

Also, you should know that there have been many muslim members who have been banned from participating in various threads in the "comparative religions" section.

In any case, I think this forum is a little too lenient towards the non-muslim members who have consciously used deception tactics and lies in their debates.

 

[glo]

You'll find the same on the christian boards, and indeed on the atheist boards, and on political boards for that matter.

I completely agree!
If nothing else, my experience here in an Islamic forum has given be a very tangible understanding of what it must be like to be a 'minority religious group' in, say, a Christian forum. That's the beauty of our human experiences - the ability to consider our own feelings and reflect them onto the situation of others.
"If I feel like X as a Christian in a Muslim forum, perhaps Muslims feel the same in a Christian forum" ... hopefully that leads to 'treat others as you would like to be treated' ...

Thing is, I find those aggressive defenders of their cause (be they Christian, Muslim, atheist, political etc) unpleasant, whoever they are.
I also find them ineffective in their cause, because they tend to attract the trolls and turn away those who might be genuinely interested in a discussion ...

Its human nature I think, to have an ingroup and have certain members of it lash out against outgroup members. I dare say its human nature.

Well, just because something is human nature, it doesn't mean it's right or we should out up with it.
It is fine to have 'ingroup' and 'outgroup' members, they can even disagree with each other. But lashing out just isn't helpful ... :hmm:

 

[glo]

Maybe the muslims are only exposing the real truth of non-muslims beliefs, and that makes you feel uncomfortable?

I cannot truly say whether that is the case or not. Only God knows.

But it is an argument which could be made by people from any faith!
What do you think of your statement, if I turn it on its head?

Maybe the non-Muslims are only exposing the real truth of Islamic beliefs, and that makes Muslims feel uncomfortable?

Does that still sound reasonable to you? Or contentious? Or disrespectful? Or blasphemous?
How does it make you feel? Frustrated? Unconcerned? Defensive? Upset? Angry?

 

[aadil77]

hmm I feel I'm being addressed here, well I'll take the advice onboard

 

[CosmicPathos]

I completely agree!
If nothing else, my experience here in an Islamic forum has given be a very tangible understanding of what it must be like to be a 'minority religious group' in, say, a Christian forum. That's the beauty of our human experiences - the ability to consider our own feelings and reflect them onto the situation of others.
"If I feel like X as a Christian in a Muslim forum, perhaps Muslims feel the same in a Christian forum" ... hopefully that leads to 'treat others as you would like to be treated' ...

Thing is, I find those aggressive defenders of their cause (be they Christian, Muslim, atheist, political etc) unpleasant, whoever they are.
I also find them ineffective in their cause, because they tend to attract the trolls and turn away those who might be genuinely interested in a discussion ..


Well, just because something is human nature, it doesn't mean it's right or we should out up with it.
It is fine to have 'ingroup' and 'outgroup' members, they can even disagree with each other. But lashing out just isn't helpful ... :hmm:

Regarding the bolded part, why do you think so? It is RIGHT for a person to do what his nature is like. If his/her nature is opposite to what you think is right, you still cannot call that person wrong. Your nature is yours, their is theirs.

 

[Ramadhan]

Does that still sound reasonable to you? Or contentious? Or disrespectful? Or blasphemous?
How does it make you feel? Frustrated? Unconcerned? Defensive? Upset? Angry?

As long as the truth that non-muslims speak about and you have genuine interest in seeking knowledge about Islam , I do not mind, because then we can have a good civil discussion.

Remember, this is still Islamicboard

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Maybe the muslims are only exposing the real truth of non-muslims beliefs, and that makes you feel uncomfortable?

You are being too sensitive.
please read my above statement.

Also, you should know that there have been many muslim members who have been banned from participating in various threads in the "comparative religions" section.

In any case, I think this forum is a little too lenient towards the non-muslim members who have consciously used deception tactics and lies in their debates.

i agree with this.

i dont condone Muslims bashing other faiths AS LONG AS -and sometimes (though not always, i will admit) -i feel this "bashing" of other faiths is in reply to certain members cunning and clever ways of attacking Islam.

im sick to death of some non-Muslims who come here looking or a fight and when they get one go off crying, holding up the victim card accusing us of rubbish like "not being able to handle people questioning our faith" or "are you that insecure about your faith" and other such rubbish (please! :exhausted)

far too many times i've seen it here, and it is truly annoying and sickening. we can see right through you people and dont take a bar of your trash and dont like being harassed and sucked up to through reps either when we prove you wrong so deal with it when we dont!

when are these trolls going to get banned! they would never in a million years allow us to approach debate in that manner on their own forums.

 

[Insaanah]

hmm I feel I'm being addressed here

It is quite obvious that this thread is now targetting and talking about members of this forum, in public, in their absence, which is disgusting, I think.

Anyone who has anything to say about any particular member, should be brave enough to say it to them, not imply or infer through words about them in front of others.

As long as the truth that non-muslims speak about and you have genuine interest in seeking knowledge about Islam , I do not mind, because then we can have a good civil discussion.

I don't venture often into this section, but recently, on the occasions I did, my patience (and I am normally a patient person) was tested to its limit. And I certainly believe that I should be able to respond appropriately and at an equal level to any comments that might have been made in whatever thread I was participating in, that I needed to respond to, without fear of what someone else might say about me (or anyone else for that matter) in public in another thread!

Can we close this thread now? I think it's gone far enough.

 

[Woodrow]

It is quite obvious that this thread is now targetting and talking about members of this forum, in public, which is disgusting, I think.

Anyone who has anything to say about any particular member, should be brave enough to say it to them, not imply or infer through words about them in front of others.



I don't venture often into this section, but recently, on the occasions I did, my patience (and I am normally a patient person) was tested to its limit. And I certainly believe that I should be able to respond appropriately and at an equal level to any comments that might have been made in whatever thread I was participating in, that I needed to respond to, without fear of what someone else might say about me (or anyone else for that matter) in public in another thread!

Can we close this thread now? I think it's gone far enough.

I agree, it is time to close this thread. But not delete it. There is much said from various view points to give us ample things to think about.

I think one point has been strongly brought to air and that being, critique of a religion causes pain and brings out our defenses. Let us let things rest for a while and all think if our method of protecting what we cherish is effective or only brings about pain.

Perhaps one day this thread will be reopened, but for now much has been said that requires considerable thinking about attitudes and methods.

 

[Woodrow]

I am reopening this thread as time has passed and most of us should have had time to reflect upon what has been said and what needs to be added. Also, some members whose opinion I wish to read have requested the opportunity to reply.

So here is the Grand Re-Opening. May we all agree to disagree in peace without malice towards any person.

 

[Supreme]

This board seems to be teeming with thread with regards to Christianity, and not much else. Which is rather strange, for an Islamic forum. The infighting between the Abrahamics is kinda annoying, especially with all the "your scriptures copy my scriptures"/"your scriptures, though corrupted, reference and predict the coming of my prophet"-nonsense going on.

I wouldn't mind it so much if these threads were really devoted to learning new stuff, but the thing is: they are not.
As glo's post above demonstrates, they are all about figuring out the best way to attack the other's world view and convert them to one's own, with generally very limited success.

 

[Woodrow]

This board seems to be teeming with thread with regards to Christianity, and not much else. Which is rather strange, for an Islamic forum. The infighting between the Abrahamics is kinda annoying, especially with all the "your scriptures copy my scriptures"/"your scriptures, though corrupted, reference and predict the coming of my prophet"-nonsense going on.

I wouldn't mind it so much if these threads were really devoted to learning new stuff, but the thing is: they are not.
As glo's post above demonstrates, they are all about figuring out the best way to attack the other's world view and convert them to one's own, with generally very limited success.

A very good point Supreme:

I wouldn't mind it so much if these threads were really devoted to learning new stuff, but the thing is: they are not.

This is something I think we all need to be aware of and ask our selves before we post. Many people do not under stand the differences between Debate, argument, comparison, educating, defending or fighting.

It seems that a very large percentage of post are of the type "You are wrong and refuse to accept truth" variety. Rather than a simple statement of " I believe this, because......."

This leads to a feeling the section is the place to express hatred. Because this feeling, threads get so personal, discussions tend to become accusations not knowledge sharing.

 

[Hugo]

This is something I think we all need to be aware of and ask our selves before we post. Many people do not under stand the differences between Debate, argument, comparison, educating, defending or fighting. It seems that a very large percentage of post are of the type "You are wrong and refuse to accept truth" variety. Rather than a simple statement of " I believe this, because......." This leads to a feeling the section is the place to express hatred. Because this feeling, threads get so personal, discussions tend to become accusations not knowledge sharing.

There is some value in what you say but its difficult to deal with as one cannot do all that much to control what people say and it probably is not a good idea to try. This issues for me are.

1. We all have beliefs of one sort or another but one cannot discuss, debate, argue, compare, educate, defend or even fight if one starts from a position that you alone have the truth because then there is nothing much to talk about only listen.

2. Popper in 1943 said “I believe that a reasonable discussion is always possible between parties interested in truth, and ready to pay attention to each other”. Perhaps this is where we should stand?

3. I don't think there is anything much off limits to what we can talk about but I do think we have to have some compassion and understanding that what a person says is how they feel even if it seem silly to us.

4. To me discussion falls apart when a position is defended with nothing more than dogma though I accept that it can be stated as a personal belief but not insisted on as some absolute truth. It feels oppressive to me to take that position, is it like that for you?

5. I don't in general things there is anything to be gained by insulting remarks but at the same time I don't see anything wrong by saying that an argument is weak or foolish or nonsense as long as we can explain.

One final remark, it is true that there are many posts where people refuse to accept the truth but if I may say so there is no monopoly on truth so your remark worries me as far as open discussion is concerned. One understands this is a Muslim Board but does that mean its only purpose is to proclaim Islam perceptions of truth as if there are no mother possibilities and it has to be accepted? I am not aware in the rules that this is the case but if it is I wonder at the real potential for learning here?

 

[Woodrow]

There is some value in what you say but its difficult to deal with as one cannot do all that much to control what people say and it probably is not a good idea to try.

While I agree with your point. I see the necessity in having a degree of control over how something is said. Along with limitations over what can not be said. Freedom of speech is good, but to maintain fluiidity and preventing chaos there does need to be restictions and limits.

This issues for me are.

1. We all have beliefs of one sort or another but one cannot discuss, debate, argue, compare, educate, defend or even fight if one starts from a position that you alone have the truth because then there is nothing much to talk about only listen.

That is true, and Yes, we do believe Islam is the only truth.

I agree that does limit what a person can speak about, but we do try our best to permit flexibility and allow a person to disagree with us and give alternative views. The problem usually occurs over how an opposing view is presented or perceived. This is an area of difficulty we all need understanding of to reduce the probability of unintentional insults.

2. Popper in 1943 said “I believe that a reasonable discussion is always possible between parties interested in truth, and ready to pay attention to each other”. Perhaps this is where we should stand?

Continuing with what I posted above. I would say that is a goal we should strive for and if successful, it would eliminate the above mentioned reply.

3. I don't think there is anything much off limits to what we can talk about but I do think we have to have some compassion and understanding that what a person says is how they feel even if it seem silly to us.

Understanding is the key. But first we need to identify what is meant by understanding and that understanding does not require or imply agreeing.

4. To me discussion falls apart when a position is defended with nothing more than dogma though I accept that it can be stated as a personal belief but not insisted on as some absolute truth. It feels oppressive to me to take that position, is it like that for you?

This could be a very interesting and beneficial thread in itself. What is truth to one person is usually seen as dogma to another. Until all of us come to an agreement over what is dogma and what is fact this will be a stumbling block.

5. I don't in general things there is anything to be gained by insulting remarks but at the same time I don't see anything wrong by saying that an argument is weak or foolish or nonsense as long as we can explain.

Insults seldom if ever prove a point and at best only reduce discussion to emotionalism, I agree fully with this statement and we all need to realize that no matter how vivid or sincere an insult is, it does not prove anything.

One final remark, it is true that there are many posts where people refuse to accept the truth but if I may say so there is no monopoly on truth so your remark worries me as far as open discussion is concerned. One understands this is a Muslim Board but does that mean its only purpose is to proclaim Islam perceptions of truth as if there are no mother possibilities and it has to be accepted? I am not aware in the rules that this is the case but if it is I wonder at the real potential for learning here?

I think the major issue to yourself and probably to all non Muslims is expressed in your sentence:

"One understands this is a Muslim Board but does that mean its only purpose is to proclaim Islam perceptions of truth as if there are no mother possibilities and it has to be accepted? "

The simple answer is yes. The issue is how can we keep this from becoming a barricade to you and other non Muslim members. I do not want this to be something that makes non Muslims feel unwelcome here. This is something we can use input from non Muslim members about.

Coexistence is possible and can even be productive. But, we still have a long way to go for all of us to have widespread peaceful disagreement.

 

[Hugo]

That is true, and Yes, we do believe Islam is the only truth.

This perhaps gets to the heart of the matter and I have no issues with anyone who is willing to accept that it is mostly a matter of belief not absolute and indisputable fact. If this is understood then I think there is room for debate and discussion without the need for heat. I might offer some ideas here.

Truth - this is a hard idea to define and there are innumerable books that discuss it. Truth can be simply defined as a fact that has been verified or more loosely as meaning a statement is accurate. One must be aware that many great questions have no proof as such: the existence of God, why we are here, is there a creator, why is there a past and future and so on and although unanswerable we all it seems need to think about them and they are of course worth thinking about.

There is an old saying that a bell that has been rung cannot be "unrung", the very annoying problem with this is that once you know something, you cannot “unknown” it even if it turns out to be wrong. Often therefore truth is defined as the problem of being clear about what you are saying when you make some claim or other to be true.

Broadly speaking there are two strands of thought with regard to truth. There are the “absolutists” where they largely rely on dogma (someone tells you what the truth is) and the relativist that see truth as a changing quality. Typically the absolutist is happy in his own convictions and may not care or sympathise with those of others. So absolutism gives a sense of security and self-assurance (sometime spilling over into bigoted self-righteousness) whereas the relativist sees it as unthinking, irrational innocence.

Understanding - we all I suspect know what this means but perversely it is very hard to know when you have attained it. For example, Sherlock Holes was famously deductive but how many people really understand what it means to be deductive? One can of course learn a definition but understanding only comes when you use a concept not just memorise it, practice what you understand.

Fact - We use the idea of “fact” all the time; so what is a fact; how do you know when you have a fact? For example, if I say there is a thing called gravity is that a fact, if I say that 62% of students on the course passed is that a fact also? If I look at a fact like "gravity" (called a natural fact) and a fact like "62% of students passed in the May cohort" (called a nominal fact) - is there any differences between these two kinds of fact?

So is it possible to prove a fact; decide whether it is true or not. The answer is that I can find proofs of gravity and I can find proofs of the pass rate. Therefore, a fact can be independently checked in some way. Now for nominal facts you may find that some people will not accept your proof. To take a perhaps extreme example, suppose I say that the existence of God or Allah or Krishna is a fact then I might cite proofs and you might or might not find them convincing but I think you will see that such proofs are not falsifiable (put simply we cannot work out how to test the proposition) and clearly not accepted by all as true. Whereas gravity is always true, can be tested and cannot be ignored by anyone.

Nominal facts are important because they crop up all the time and we can in principle do something about them, change them in some way. For example: With a nominal fact I can ignore it, try to forget about it or just regard it as of no value (consider that we cannot do that with natural facts like gravity)

This last point is important because it means that what you do with a nominal fact, what actions you take is not fixed, it does not force you to do anything and any given fact may cause one person to do something and another the opposite.

I think the major issue to yourself and probably to all non Muslims is expressed in your sentence: "One understands this is a Muslim Board but does that mean its only purpose is to proclaim Islam perceptions of truth as if there are no mother possibilities and it has to be accepted? "

The simple answer is yes. The issue is how can we keep this from becoming a barricade to you and other non Muslim members. I do not want this to be something that makes non Muslims feel unwelcome here. This is something we can use input from non Muslim members about.

This is fine, you can proclaim Islamic doctrine and principles and I have no issue with that. The point if we are to be open is that you allow critical comment to be voiced and never assume that an answer is in some sense absolute and all critical comment can be refuted and so often we simply end a debate by agreeing to differ.