Of what use or value is this "Comparative Religion" section?

[glo]

I wouldn't mind it so much if these threads were really devoted to learning new stuff, but the thing is: they are not.
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A very good point Supreme

This leads to a feeling the section is the place to express hatred. Because this feeling, threads get so personal, discussions tend to become accusations not knowledge sharing.

With regards to learning about and understanding each other's faiths better, I think those threads which simply ask specific questions about other faiths and invite answers and explanations without then using those as an excuse for debate and argument, are the most successful and beneficial ones!
(I am thinking about the 'Ask questions of Christians' and 'Things is Islam I am curious about' (although that seems to have deteriorated into another debate thread recently ... :hmm)

I have noticed that the forum sections which are intended for newcomers to learn about Islam, are very good at moderating new threads and/or posts. That way inappropriate posts and anything encouraging arguments or discord or confusion can be prevented by the mods.
Perhaps it would be useful to reintroduce at least some threads in the 'Comparative Religion' section, which are set aside to furthering our understanding of other faiths and worldviews; and which strictly discourage debate and arguments - if necessary with mod intervention.

Any thoughts?

 

[Hugo]

With regards to learning about and understanding each other's faiths better, I think those threads which simply ask specific questions about other faiths and invite answers and explanations without then using those as an excuse for debate and argument, are the most successful and beneficial ones! Any thoughts?

One understands this point of view but it also perhaps betrays a misunderstand as to what this medium of the Internet is. The author Jon Lewis points up a kind of paradox:

1. Dissemination of material over the Internet mainly sidesteps the censorship of states and companies. It's a place where the truth can emerge into the light.
2. The Internet is also a democracy of fools, where everybody's opinion is aired as though of equal merit: a cyberspace where the lunatic and the malicious weigh in at the same weight as the rational, honest, well informed and concerned citizen.

It follows that in general we simply do not know who is posting what and if they have any intellectual legitimacy to do so in that what is said comes out of careful study and questioning. So if I here ask a question about let's say prophet-hood in Islam there is no way for me to know if the answer comes from the ill-informed, the expert or the malicious. More often than not what we do read is copied from some other website with usually no way of knowing if it has any real quality or accuracy. As I have said elsewhere I use software to check postings so I know the source but not everyone can do that

That is why we must ask questions about what is posted not just accept any answer that is given - the process of questioning then allows us to see if the person really knows anything or not. I agree it is sad when the discussion is degraded by insults and innuendo but that is the price of a free board like this one. I am not suggesting a free for all and I know the role of the moderators is a very very difficult one but we must understand the medium we are using.

People who come to this board could be masquerading as Muslim, Christian or anything and can easily create discontent. However, we must not then create a conspiracy theory that any one who does not regard Islam as the truth is motivated by hate or are weak minded. The task as I see it is to disentangle the mad, the bad and the good in what is being said and that is a two way thing in that a non-Muslim may very well know a good deal about Islam and a Muslim might know a good deal about other religions and of course we have to be aware that any Muslim or Christian or what ever may be ignorant even about their own faith.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings glo,

Whilst there may be some truth in your perception of the way this section is moderated, there is also much that is being overlooked.

However, in my own personal view there are many, many very negative, even aggressive, comments made in this section - and most commonly (perhaps not surprising, given the membership of this forum) by Muslims against non-Muslim beliefs.

The truth is that there have been "many, many very negative, even aggressive comments" made by both sides. But it's unfair to make the claim that most of the said comments are made by Muslims, and this would especially be the case if we were to consider the forum as a whole. Muslims have complained about the section too, and have felt very hurt and offended. Instead of trying to lay the blame on any one particular side, it's more important to answer the question of its purpose.

I may be biased in my perception - and if I am, please forgive me, I am only human after all ...
But it has been my experience that whilst mods are pretty vigilant when it comes to reinforcing rule No1, they seem to be quite lenient when it comes to reinforcing rule No2.

This is very subjective. On the one hand, if you come across a thread or two you find offensive, you will immediately assume the mods are not being vigilant enough, though people of other faiths might find them harmless. On the other hand, there may be many threads you think are harmless, though many Muslim members will find them offensive and think the Mods are not vigilant enough regarding those. So you see it's easy to feel the Mods are not vigilant depending on which perspective the person is coming from.

Perhaps I am too sensitive, but many threads and posts seem to be written with the very intention of ridiculing or attacking or bashing faiths other than Islam. :hmm:

And the exact same statement can be said by Muslims regarding threads/posts made about Islam.

I have noticed that the forum sections which are intended for newcomers to learn about Islam, are very good at moderating new threads and/or posts. That way inappropriate posts and anything encouraging arguments or discord or confusion can be prevented by the mods.

However, the moderation there has also been criticised for being too lenient, considering that certain non-Muslims have taken it upon themselves to respond to such newcomers and actually create confusion. Anyhow, the purpose of these two sections are completely different and they aren't quite comparable. The fact that Comparative Religion is by its nature open to people of very different understandings, discord and arguments are much more likely regardless of how well it's moderated.

Perhaps it would be useful to reintroduce at least some threads in the 'Comparative Religion' section, which are set aside to furthering our understanding of other faiths and worldviews; and which strictly discourage debate and arguments - if necessary with mod intervention.

But where would we draw the line between "furthering our understanding of other faiths" and promoting faiths other than Islam?

Peace.

 

[Woodrow]

I think one thing we all can do is to make a sincere attempt to learn to disagree with posts, without making it a judgmental issue about the writer. In other words avoid personal insults of any member. Everybody needs to use the report button when they feel a post is offensive and not try to "correct" the poster. The report button really does work. It may seem slow and does not give immediate gratification, but the over all result is usually effective.

Simple guidelines:

1. Do not feed trolls
2. Do not insult others over disagreements
3. Make us staff people work, use the report button

 

[glo]

It follows that in general we simply do not know who is posting what and if they have any intellectual legitimacy to do so in that what is said comes out of careful study and questioning. So if I here ask a question about let's say prophet-hood in Islam there is no way for me to know if the answer comes from the ill-informed, the expert or the malicious. More often than not what we do read is copied from some other website with usually no way of knowing if it has any real quality or accuracy. As I have said elsewhere I use software to check postings so I know the source but not everyone can do that

That is true.
If what you are after is the scholarly explanation of Islam then perhaps an Internet forum such as this is not the best place at all. I would rather buy a book from a reputable source or study the teachings of Islam by some other way.

My reason for being here is different. I would rather understand the Islam which is in the hearts and minds of those who follow it. In that sense I am very happy with hearing and understanding people's personal views and explanations.
Perhaps there is a difference between the 'written Islam' and the 'lived Islam'.
If there is I am more interested in understanding the latter than in the first.

As for the lengthy copied and pasted posts from apologetic sites, I rarely read them. (For the reasons given above - I want to understand how individual Muslims think and feel, not what official Islamic sites say. If I wanted to do the latter, I would read a book on the topic ...)

 

[glo]

Greetings glo,

Whilst there may be some truth in your perception of the way this section is moderated, there is also much that is being overlooked.

The truth is that there have been "many, many very negative, even aggressive comments" made by both sides. But it's unfair to make the claim that most of the said comments are made by Muslims, and this would especially be the case if we were to consider the forum as a whole. Muslims have complained about the section too, and have felt very hurt and offended. Instead of trying to lay the blame on any one particular side, it's more important to answer the question of its purpose.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Muhammad.
I completely agree that my post only represents my own personal perception and that it is biased. I said so myself at the time.
There is of course a different view, which is probably held by many Muslims.
I guess it is the role of the mods to tread the fair line between those opinions ...

However, the moderation there has also been criticised for being too lenient, considering that certain non-Muslims have taken it upon themselves to respond to such newcomers and actually create confusion. Anyhow, the purpose of these two sections are completely different and they aren't quite comparable. The fact that Comparative Religion is by its nature open to people of very different understandings, discord and arguments are much more likely regardless of how well it's moderated.

I think it is a good idea to have those sections, which aim to inform newcomers about Islam, heavily moderated.

But if we are talking about the Comparative Religion section as a section were people learn about each other's faiths and understand the different beliefs and wordviews (as Woodrow and others seem to suggest), rather than a section which allows or even encourages discord and hateful messages, then perhaps the purpose of the two sections aren't so different at all.
Could the aim of both be to peacefully share information and broaden the understanding of each other, without stirring up hatred, confusion or intolerance?

Another suggestion might be to split the CR section into two subgroups: one simply for information exchange and questions without debate, and another for debate and refutation?

But where would we draw the line between "furthering our understanding of other faiths" and promoting faiths other than Islam?

That's a tricky one, and something for the mods to decide.
My argument would be, how can we even begin to relate to people of other faiths and communicate with other, if we cannot even sit down together and begin to hear about what the other believes? :hmm:

Peace.

 

[جوري]

But where would we draw the line between "furthering our understanding of other faiths" and promoting faiths other than Islam?

Peace.

My experience is that no effort is actually made by most of the christians on board to understand Islam.. they already have all the answers and they have received their answers at the hands of like minded individuals who I dare say never opened an Islamic book in their life with a neutral intent or intent to abridge and reconcile differences .... I point your attention to a topic as an ex. one of many of course, started by our dear friend glo, 'about Muhammed and Islamic practices' Where she has gleaned from her 'reading of the Quran' a thorough read of course that pilgrimage is a 'muhammed practice' for there is no mention of it in the Quran, forgetting in the process apparently that there is more than 23 verses and a chapter so entitled..

How should the Muslims on board in your opinion view that? an attempt to understanding our faith? thorough research? ' mere inquisition' or again more intellectual dishonesty?
It isn't the first of its kind for certainly what is hidden from sight is richer still.. I am rather glad the mixed female section is closed at that.. though somethings in there would have been better made public for folks to understand better the type of individuals who are truly the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing!

 

[Woodrow]

My experience is that no effort is actually made by most of the christians on board to understand Islam.. they already have all the answers and they have received their answers at the hands of like minded individuals who I dare say never opened an Islamic book in their life with a neutral intent or intent to abridge and reconcile differences .... I point your attention to a topic as an ex. one of many of course, started by our dear friend glo, 'about Muhammed and Islamic practices' Where she has gleaned from her 'reading of the Quran' a thorough read of course that pilgrimage is a 'muhammed practice' for there is no mention of it in the Quran, forgetting in the process apparently that there is more than 23 verses and a chapter so entitled..

How should the Muslims on board in your opinion view that? an attempt to understanding our faith? thorough research? ' mere inquisition' or again more intellectual dishonesty?
It isn't the first of its kind for certainly what is hidden from sight is richer still.. I am rather glad the mixed female section is closed at that.. though somethings in there would have been better made public for folks to understand better the type of individuals who are truly the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing!

Keeping this more general. You bring up a very good point and that is the problem of non-qualified people attempting to teach about Islam. Few if any do so out of malice. But, it is a problem no matter the reason or intent or who by. For this reason we do out right forbid discussions of fiqh. I do not know what is the best solution. Some thoughts come to mind:

1. Forbid any posts that give any indication of teaching. (Well I immediately disagree with that)

2. Permit answers/teaching only by verified Islamic Scholars (That would be best but is not possible nor practcal)

3. The best practical solution I can think of is to limit the explanations and teachings to members approved by the admins to do so. The logisttics may be insurmountable, but I feel that is something we should look into.

 

[جوري]

Keeping this more general. You bring up a very good point and that is the problem of non-qualified people attempting to teach about Islam. Few if any do so out of malice. But, it is a problem no matter the reason or intent or who by. For this reason we do out right forbid discussions of fiqh. I do not know what is the best solution. Some thoughts come to mind:

1. Forbid any posts that give any indication of teaching. (Well I immediately disagree with that)

2. Permit answers/teaching only by verified Islamic Scholars (That would be best but is not possible nor practcal)

3. The best practical solution I can think of is to limit the explanations and teachings to members approved by the admins to do so. The logisttics may be insurmountable, but I feel that is something we should look into.

Or you can get a scholar on board at least once a week? forum needs at least one person like Ansar Al 'Adl or have the topics he covered indexed for easily accessibility .. nonetheless new questions always arise and I think it would be an incredible benefit to get a scholar on board for the Muslims at least.. It takes a while to get a question answered through Islamonline or similar sites..

 

[Woodrow]

Or you can get a scholar on board at least once a week? forum needs at least one person like Ansar Al 'Adl or have the topics he covered indexed for easily accessibility .. nonetheless new questions always arise and I think it would be an incredible benefit to get a scholar on board for the Muslims at least.. It takes a while to get a question answered through Islamonline or similar sites..

That is something we have been working on. We have had several respected scholars come on unidentified to most members. But, sadly they soon discovered they could not put in the time required and soon left. There has been an ongoing search for a resident scholar, but so far none have shown any desire or having the time to take on the responsibility to be our resident scholar. It is a very difficult role to handle when so often the conversation is active. Inshallah at some point we will find a scholar who is qualified, able and willing to join and stay with us.

 

[Skavau]

The truth is that there have been "many, many very negative, even aggressive comments" made by both sides. But it's unfair to make the claim that most of the said comments are made by Muslims, and this would especially be the case if we were to consider the forum as a whole. Muslims have complained about the section too, and have felt very hurt and offended. Instead of trying to lay the blame on any one particular side, it's more important to answer the question of its purpose.

Well, most of the negative and aggressive comments do come from Muslims also from my perspective as well - and like glo said, take heart as it is likely an issue of demographics much more than it is tendencies. I have seen it function and be glaringly obvious much more on other forums (such as various Catholic forums and other Islamic Forums) I have been on. The problem is in many respects is this forum is being used not just for inter-religious dialogue, but it is also being used to talk about atheism, morality and metaphysics. Whilst I am sure you have no problem with those topics (and I do not either), I am sure it is skewing the direction of this section.

Indeed, I think the same thing impacts the Clarifications on Islam, where many people don't clarify things in Islam so much as they begin debates (which I am guilty of participating).

 

[جوري]

(such as various Catholic forums and other Islamic Forums) I have been on. .

Why not be a member of those forums then if the air here isn't sensible to your sensitivities?
chances are if you take a reasonable portion of any given population they're in all likelihood to be presented in whatever forum you visit in terms of insights, articles and variations on point of views.. if you feel the aggression here is precluding from a useful dialogue, then you can go to another of those Islamic forums and be handled with the kid gloves you desire while dispensing with your own brand of insults 'under freedom of expression' on the side!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

Why not be a member of those forums then if the air here isn't sensible to your sensitivities?

I was using the various catholic forums and the Islamic forums as examples of where it is much worse than on here.

chances are if you take a reasonable portion of any given population they're in all likelihood to be presented in whatever forum you visit in terms of insights, articles and variations on point of views.. if you feel the aggression here is precluding from a useful dialogue, then you can go to another of those Islamic forums and be handled with the kid gloves you desire while dispensing with your own brand of insults 'under freedom of expression' on the side!

I don't. This place is generally much more mild than many other places. And I don't "dispense" with any insults on here. This forum has the right to prohibit freedom to insult as it is not run by a government, but by a private group of individuals. I have run chatrooms with that ideal as well myself.

 

[جوري]

I was using the various catholic forums and the Islamic forums as examples of where it is much worse than on here.

I misread what you have written then give your opening statement ''Well, most of the negative and aggressive comments do come from Muslims also from my perspective as well ''

I don't. This place is generally much more mild than many other places. And I don't "dispense" with any insults on here. This forum has the right to prohibit freedom to insult as it is not run by a government, but by a private group of individuals. I have run chatrooms with that ideal as well myself.

Ok for the first half of your comment, but the latter part is rather subjective!



Addendum: To comment on your observation, it is a mere ratio issue.. out of all the Christians here we can collectively note that only two perhaps are as they claim, Eric and pouring rain, out of the Jews we have had on board, perhaps Rav and Boaz, out of the sikhs perhaps Avar Allah Noor stood out as genuine seekers of dialogue and honest exchange.. I am yet to find an atheist to be a decent representative of the group albeit some are more zealot in my eyes than others,-- if you have a group of ten vocal people to represent one religion as opposed to 100 vocal people to represent another, your mind might perceive incorrectly that well it is the Muslims that are behind all the aggression. Truth is this is an Islamic forum and you are bound to find the majority of members here Muslim- ten percent of ten doesn't equal numerically ten percent of 100, even if the percentage remains the same!




all the best

 

[Supreme]

You have to remember that most non-Muslims here don't actually care whether they pertain to your list of 'genuine seekers'- your indignation with regards to other members is irrelevant to the topic at hand and only further serves to prove the hostile nature this board is notorious for.

 

[Hugo]

You have to remember that most non-Muslims here don't actually care whether they pertain to your list of 'genuine seekers'- your indignation with regards to other members is irrelevant to the topic at hand and only further serves to prove the hostile nature this board is notorious for.

This is a subjective comment as it seems to me you or me in general cannot know what any one is here for and what exactly is a 'genuine seeker' and how would you vet such individuals? One gets the feeling reading your remark that there is a kind of conspiracy going on collectively with those who don't actually care? But whether we like it or not that is the nature of the the Internet and it cannot be bypassed unless the board sets up a vetting and membership scheme but then who want to be in a club where everybody agrees with each other all the time?

When it comes to hostility then anyone who comes here regularly knows those who think hostility is a form of argument and usually it shows itself in offensive personal remarks or remarks directed toward a persons faith so its easy to spot - but I am happy to leave that to the moderators to manage. From a posters point of view it is best, though sometimes difficult not to respond in kind when goaded because then any reasonable discussion disintegrates and the thread is lost.

My own view is that we let the moderators remove obviously offensive, racist or clearly untrue materials as best they can and when necessary impose sanctions on the perpetrators but even then they must be given some leeway as no ones judgement is perfect. One final point, I have no issues with posts that seek to clarify or refute or call into question the credibility of any individual as long as it's based on what they have said and nothing else (because in general we don't know anything else)

 

[Pygoscelis]

I only come into this comparative religion one and the world events one, because I feel those are forums in which Muslims are either expressly seeking outsider views (comparitive religion) or are dealing with the real world at large (world events). The other sections I really do view as a bit of a virtual mosque and I don't tread in there since my views are often polar opposite to the dogma. But in here you're going to have to deal with kafir views and even views like mine that often go directly opposed to Islam, otherwise there is really no "comparative". If you want to engage the non-muslim community and get non-muslim views (and you invited us all here by opening a section with this title on a public board), be they from other religions or from atheists, you're going to have to accept this and roll with it. You'll also have to accept that most of us are curious about Islam and came here to learn about it but have no wish to convert and also will not accept all factual claims on their face. If you tell us you believe X then we will note that there are muslims who believe X (which can be quite eye opening sometimes) but we won't necesarily extend that to all muslims (we go to other forums too where muslims beleive Y) and we won't necesarily accept any statements beyond those of belief.

This forum is infamous for the hostile attitude of some of the muslim members, but those members are very little in number. And as I said above, such people can be found on pretty much any board. I know catholics on catholic boards like that, atheists on atheist boards like that, conservatives on conservative boards like that (one that notoriously and relentlessly attacks muslims), and liberals on liberal boards like that. Its more a function of ingroup/outgroup (and attacking the outgroup to connect with the ingroup) than anything else. It also flows form the perception of ingroup members that since mods will agree with their views they can present them with more hostility than the outgroup members and not get moderated. As for the outgroupers, you'll sometimes see baiting (raising issues to rile people up) but you hardly ever see direct personal attacks (that only seems to come from ingroupers).

 

[جوري]

You have to remember that most non-Muslims here don't actually care whether they pertain to your list of 'genuine seekers'- your indignation with regards to other members is irrelevant to the topic at hand and only further serves to prove the hostile nature this board is notorious for.

Why must I remember that? It is as relevant to me as the comment above is relevant to you although obviously on some level it must be so devastating to be under so much false pretense and not have it take hold of others!

all the best

 

[جوري]

btw I find it strange that the two replies I posted to Hugo have disappeared without so much as a mention!
This is exactly the sort of disrespect of the members that the Muslims here dislike.. you must remember that in the beginning and the end this is an Islamic forum-- made for a particular purpose, not to appease the incessant unending drivel that some seem to think reflects on others yet for some strange reason are exempt from applying to their own person and their own doctrine!

 

[جوري]

I only come into this comparative religion .

You have missed something in the title.. since comparative religion means just that, and frankly you have no religion to compare and by your own admittance don't care for the 'virtual mosque' we are pretty much familiar with your 'polarized views' hammering it in for four years is not bound to change matters any least of which when you make positively no effort to enter the virtual mosque to learn of the religion of those you're views are so against and it seems to pop and repeatedly on any topic where some minimal understanding of Islamic beliefs crop up!

all the best