On Nihilism

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Greetings,
Isambard said:
Active nihilism is when you actively test and destroy mental constructs and perseptions in the hopes of finding an objective reality not bound and limited by the human mind.
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I think everyone should have a part of their mind devoted to this task. It's how new ideas in science or philosophy are tested and weighed for value.

I suppose I am a nihilist at heart, but I tend to ignore this for most of the time because life can't be lived without believing (on however provisional a basis) things which can't be proven. I believe the following:

I exist
the sun will rise tomorrow
killing people is evil

but none of them can be proved. I believe these things out of habit; in the case of the last, out of deep, primal habit that is one of the most important reasons for our survival as a species. These things are useful for us to believe, but that doesn't make them objectively and demonstrably true.

I consider my nihilism a sort of default. I dont want to be a nihilist, but its the position I am left with because of my need to de-construct things and so far, I've yet to find something that is not based on an assumption.
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Everything is perhaps based on assumptions because of our tendency to want to explain things with incomplete evidence. All of our ratiocinations about the universe are bound to be conditioned by the physical makeup of our brains and sense-organs, as well as other factors. I think that once we've accepted this, that implies that our knowledge of the universe will always be limited. And that's where the can of worms starts...

Mathematicians prefer to believe that 2 + 2 = 4 because none of mathematics would make sense without it, but it's a statement that cannot be proven. I believe Russell and Whitehead spent a significant portion of their Principia Mathematica attempting to do just that, but without success. However, it's convenient to believe it in the same way as it's convenient to believe that the ground won't give way when we're walking on a pavement, or that eating fruit will help you live longer. These beliefs are useful to us because they form part of our mental constructs that help us to understand the place we find ourselves in...

...because we don't really know why we're here. The meaning and purpose of our existence is unclear; different people will give different explanations and have different judging criteria. This, it seems to me, shouldn't at all be a cause for despair or anarchy. We give our lives meaning ourselves. Just about every human activity (including religion) is part of an attempt to understand what our lives mean, to examine different aspects of our experience and perhaps learn from them. It's up to us to give our lives value and to make them worthwhile.

The sceptical attitude has a long (and distinguished?) career in the history of philosophy, and has been pretty much constant, without often breaking into the mainstream. For music fans, a comparison with heavy metal's position in popular music could be relevant here, believe it or not, but that's another story. From Diogenes the Cynic and Hume to Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, there's always been the character that asks just a few too many questions for comfort. I think it could have been the Existentialist movement that really put nihilism on the map, though. The works of Camus, Sartre and (in his way) Beckett broke scepticism in the face of an apparently absurd universe into the mainstream of continental philosophy and culture, where it has maintained its place in contemporary discourse to this day.

Peace
 
i think this is probably over my head.
it strikes me that if there were an objective reality, we would be unable to know it - it would lie outside of our tools of perception because we are limited. so in a way, it is irrelevant.
goes back to the observer is not separate from the observed.....:muddlehea
 
aamirsaab said:
What I am now interested in is that you say that you are content with your life yet admit in essence that your existence is meaningless. I would like to know how this is possible and what stops you, yourself, from becoming depressed etc.
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I could explain this, but Im in the mood for making an amusing metaphor :D

Lets say I plan on going to the US for a month. Im very excited to go for different reasons such as visiting sights, friends, American eateries etc. But the main reason Im excited is because I believe once I enter into America, Ill be praised as a king by all the Americans and be given a golden scpeter and throne and all that jazz.

There is nothing indicating that Ill be praised as a monarch, its just the idea makes me happy.

Of course, once I go into the US and ppl ignore me, Ill be bummed so much so that I may even recent the trip there.

Believing youll be greeted as a monarch whereever you go is the same as believing you are somehow special in an objective sense. Nothing indicates I should be loved by all, if anything, all evidence seems to point at me being a random sequence of "accidents". Thats fine though.

Once one accepts that, then you are free to enjoy things for what they are as opposed to what things "should be" in your mind.:sunny:
 
Muezzin said:
But you wrote that Nietzche said active nihilism is breaking through mental constructs to get to the underlying objective reality. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, him, or both.

You are correct, Nietzche says that, I dont. As Snakelegs said, there might be an objective reality, but the human being is far too limited for it to be of any real relevance.

So, while concepts such as good and evil might not have any ontological reality (they don't exist in and of themselves), they exist in the sense that many people agree on what constitutes good and evil behaviour?

They exists as fuzzy concepts. Everyone may agree that stealing is wrong. But the definition of stealing varies so widely that any sort of practical universal application is useless. (I have a mini-essay expanded on this if you are interested)

Don't most people already do that? Someone might think chicken soup is the greatest thing in the universe, but that same someone, nihilist or not, probably knows that not everyone agrees with his opinion.

Youd think so, but in reality alot of secular ethics involve claiming to be universals which is bizarre in my view. Ppl like Dawkinsm Hitchens and other very vocal anti-theists say that nihilism is 'evil' because of the claim of relative morality. This is why I believe the good majority of them are full of BS.


Active nihilism seems much more constructive. I don't agree with it entirely (there appears to be a tendency to perhaps label just about everything a construct), but it's certainly a practical mindset. I suppose active nihilists are good at getting to the heart of the matter - very direct.
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ty :D
 
Resurrecting this thread, I believe that if I weren't Muslim I would be nihilistic agnostic. The universe doesn't make sense without a god, religion isn't believable without firm ground like Islam, and morality isn't anything I care about without religion.
 
This was a self-feeding thread by atheists for atheists, whereby they came to congratulate each other on having consistent views with one another, even the one who wasn't quite sure what nihilist actually means, was all too eager to jump on the bandwagon so long as it held an opposing view to its (theistic) antonyms.


I wonder if he, the thread starter even bothered looking up the word in the dictionary before starting the thread?

nihilism

One entry found.


Main Entry: ni·hil·ism Pronunciation: \ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm, ˈnē-\ Function: noun Etymology: German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil nothing — more at nil Date: circa 1817 1 a: a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b: a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths2 a: a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility bcapitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination
— ni·hil·ist \-list\ noun or adjective
— ni·hil·is·tic \ˌnī-(h)ə-ˈlis-tik, ˌnē-\ adjective


1-A revolutionary doctrine that advocates destruction of the social system for its own sake
2-The delusion that things (or everything, including the self) do not exist; a sense that everything is unreal
3-Complete denial of all established authority and institutions.

The thing is you can only define a Nihilist by understanding its opposite. A philosophy that can't exist on its own independent of that which defines it, i.e faith, optimism, purpose and actually existence itself, isn't worthy of being mentioned. How can a dream exist if we don't have a perception and understanding of reality?

Bro. Woodrow's post was actually very wise, if anyone with sense bothered a read..
If they wish to subscribe to such a doctrine, alot of things about their own existence will fail to make sense, or they will have an inability to define and account for simply given the definition of the term.. It is after all just subjective...

Out of all the religions out there, I find atheism to be the most farcical and intolerant.. Everyone starts from zero, but they start at -5 and unable to get themselves to a baseline where they can at least meet others on a level without resorting to some asinine platitudes on spaghetti monsters and teacup constellations.
 
Greetings,
Gossamer skye said:
Out of all the religions out there, I find atheism to be the most farcical and intolerant.. Everyone starts from zero, but they start at -5 and unable to get themselves to a baseline where they can at least meet others on a level without resorting to some asinine platitudes on spaghetti monsters and teacup constellations.
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Do you understand those arguments?

Peace
 
AntiKarateKid said:
Resurrecting this thread, I believe that if I weren't Muslim I would be nihilistic agnostic.
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As John Goodman said in The Big Lebowski: 'Nihilists! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.'

Of course, he was psychotic in that movie.
 
Muezzin said:
As John Goodman said in The Big Lebowski: 'Nihilists! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.'

Of course, he was psychotic in that movie.
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Sorry I lost you on that one. :-[
 
I think that for atheists its very hard to understand the value and meaning of civilization. As they dont believe in afterlife, they dont care what happens with their country after their dead. Thats contrary to christians, muslims and jews who think about what happens with their country, after theyr death. Im afraid that the atheist point of view is very typical for nowadays european politicians.
 
To Czgibson:

I exist
the sun will rise tomorrow
killing people is evil

How can any of these NOT be proven (Except the second one, I'd say)? Sorry, but I really do not understand...
 
Greetings,
abdullah_001 said:
To Czgibson:

I exist
the sun will rise tomorrow
killing people is evil

How can any of these NOT be proven (Except the second one, I'd say)? Sorry, but I really do not understand...
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You are welcome to try and give a convincing and irrefutable proof of any of them if you think you can do it, by my prediction is that you will not be able to.

We live in a very uncertain world, and much of what we think we know rests on shaky foundations. When examined, most truth-claims can be found to rely on assumptions, suppositions and other unverified assertions.

Peace
 
CZ, I find it interesting that you cited "not killing people" as just a primal habit and in a utilitarian view. Survival of the species? What about people who argue that killing off all deformed babies and children will help our species becomes stronger?
 
Greetings,

AntiKarateKid said:
CZ, I find it interesting that you cited "not killing people" as just a primal habit and in a utilitarian view. Survival of the species? What about people who argue that killing off all deformed babies and children will help our species becomes stronger?
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I would ask those people how and why they thought such action would result in the species becoming stronger.

I would also probably say less respectful things to them, too, but that's not worth going into here. imsad

Peace
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,



I would ask those people how and why they thought such action would result in the species becoming stronger.

I would also probably say less respectful things to them, too, but that's not worth going into here. imsad

Peace
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Playing Devils advocate here (I'd smack the person in question upside the head)


It works the same way as not killing people. You don't want to destroy your own species right? Why burden the limited resources of the earth with disabled people who are incapable of contributing to the species in any meaningful way? In fact, killing them prevents their defective genes from being passed on and disabling a new generation.

This is of course only for a person who EVEN CARES about his species. He could very well be a selfish person out for his own survival. How could he know that his contributions will even make a difference in his species? When he could be greedy, and "giving" when it is favorable for him, and live comfortably ENSURING his own survival and happiness?



I know these are alot of questions, but bear with me!
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,


You are welcome to try and give a convincing and irrefutable proof of any of them if you think you can do it, by my prediction is that you will not be able to.

We live in a very uncertain world, and much of what we think we know rests on shaky foundations. When examined, most truth-claims can be found to rely on assumptions, suppositions and other unverified assertions.

Peace
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I exist - Just slap yourself and find out if it hurt or not

The sun will rise tomorrow - We can't say that because we don't know what will happen in the future

Murder is evil - the concept and the idea of morality is to prevent harm. Why is it immoral to steal? because it harms others. likewise why is it evil to murder? it harms others hence it is evil.
 

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