one of the biggest problems with religion.

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Uthman:

I appreciate the elaborated remarks about the Quranic miracle. I was thinking it over and two things came to mind: first, if the Quran's construction was so miraculous then no one who understands the Arabic should fail to realize its divine nature. Similarly, if you take 3 verses from the Quran and take 3 verses from say a Pre-Islamic poem, and show it to someone who was unfamiliar to either, then that person should be able to recognize not only that the Quran has a unique construction (unique construction could be a bad thing) but should also realize something miraculous about it. There are non-Muslim Arabs who have read passages of the Quran which would be an oddity. I mean if the sun set on the west...most people would call that a miracle. But saying the Quran's arabic is miraculous seems somewhat of an exaggeration. The other thing is even if the Quran was THE BEST possible construction of Arabic grammar, the best literature, etc...I don't think it would follow that Islam is true. I guess what this ties around is that it's not "really" a miracle. It's more of a 'this is a great work let's worship it' type of work which I am not so sure is convincing. I will even grant that Muhammad was a genius. Certainly, even if Islam isn't true I would consider Muhammad a very talented man in changing an entire society. It might be an evidence among a set of evidences but in its own I wouldn't say it's all too convincing unless it had a verse talking about something extremely obviously like the number of stars in our galaxy.

As for the prophecies in the Quran, the bible also claims to have prophecies and you can do a quick google search for them. I think the problem is the prophecies are not exact enough to be miraculous. If it said in 100 years there will be a king born with this birthmark in this part of the world...then you'd have a full fledged miracle! But if you can list some of the prophecies that are clear and precise we can talk about them.

And lastly, as for past events like Prophets and Nations..well I am not sure what you mean. All the prophets the Quran talks about are found in the Bible so there is already a source predating the Quran that talks about the same thing.

As for your last point, I can think of a religious figure: Zarathustra. Was he a liar? A madman? (This argument was used by C.s Lewis by the way in support of Jesus' claim of divinity)
 
Greetings Lynx,

Thanks very much for the reply. I'm glad that you made the points that you did because it shows that you are thinking about this logically. I see evidence that you are sincere and open-minded just as you claimed to be. I will respond to your points as soon as I possibly can.
 
And lastly, as for past events like Prophets and Nations..well I am not sure what you mean. All the prophets the Quran talks about are found in the Bible so there is already a source predating the Quran that talks about the same thing.
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actually my question would be, why were no other prophet's names included, there must have been prophets sent to Asia, India for ex?
I hear about 124.000 prophets in a hadith, it would have made it a lot more miraculous if some other prophets that were NOT mentioned in the bible, would have been included, as to make the final claim also for ex about hinduism and buddhism. Like some kind of summary about all the religions in the world. After all these are religions too, it isn't just about what happened in the middle east region is it?
 
actually my question would be, why were no other prophet's names included, there must have been prophets sent to Asia, India for ex?
I hear about 124.000 prophets in a hadith, it would have made it a lot more miraculous if some other prophets that were NOT mentioned in the bible, would have been included, as to make the final claim also for ex about hinduism and buddhism. Like some kind of summary about all the religions in the world. After all these are religions too, it isn't just about what happened in the middle east region is it?
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I agree with you. In fact, if the Quran did mention prophets sent to India and China etc, then chinese people and indian people upon reading the Quran might be able to relate more to Islam. it might have made it a better reason to convert since the quran would see more divine in their eyes.

I anticipate two responses though: 1) none of the religions today are actually from God so mentioning them wouldn't matter. 2) the prophets mentioned in the quran are mentioned because they are the main prophets and the quran was telling the main narrative continued from bible + torah.
 
reema2009 said:
actually my question would be, why were no other prophet's names included, there must have been prophets sent to Asia, India for ex?
I hear about 124.000 prophets in a hadith, it would have made it a lot more miraculous if some other prophets that were NOT mentioned in the bible, would have been included, as to make the final claim also for ex about hinduism and buddhism. Like some kind of summary about all the religions in the world. After all these are religions too, it isn't just about what happened in the middle east region is it?
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That is your mere conjecture. There are many Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists who convert to Islam despite the fact that none of their Prophets are mentioned in the Quran. Hence, your claim that it would be more "miraculous" is invalid. Who are you to decide what is miraculous or not? Maybe greater number of Hindus,chinese etc would have converted to Islam, than the numbers that convert now, if their prophets were mentioned, you might argue? Well, Jesus is mentioned in the Quran, I see some Christians converting, other's not. What makes you so sure that it would have "helped" in that case.

Are you looking for inappropriate reasons to question Quran? There is nothing wrong with asking questions as long as the questions are logical and rational.

Good luck.
 
Lynx,

I'm still in the process of writing a reply. As you can probably tell, I'm very passionate about this topic so I want my reply to be as comprehensive and explanatory as possible.
 
Greetings and peace be with you Skavau; sorry for my late entry into this thread.

On this note though, and if you do contend it to be intuitive: what role does eternal torture serve? What part of justice does it satisfy precisely? How is it proportionate?
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The question of justice, and eternal torture, is a troubling subject for all of us. We are supposed to have choice and free will, but did I have any say about coming into this world?

My parents might have planned my arrival into this world, I could be here by accident, one thing is for sure, I had no say in the matter.

Please forgive the ambiguity of this, but if I had been given the choice about whether I wanted to come into this world, and if I did and got it wrong then I would suffer eternal torture. I would probably say I won’t risk being born, because I don’t want to risk ending up in hell.

There must be a just and fair way to deal with this problem.

I wonder if there are some things that God cannot forgive, like murder, but God can restore the victim to a greater good life after death. Maybe God can put our mistakes and sins right, could it just be that God is merciful and forgiving?

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forging God.

Eric
 
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The hellfire is not a problem.

Your perception of hell is the problem.

The hellfire will be filled with disbelievers and evil-doers, the Quran says so, God makes it clear and direct in the glorious Quran; I will surely fill up hell with humans and jinns alltogheter!

This we accept and acknowledge.

But why does God take disbelievers into hell?

That's a good question, and understading and knowing the why, takes some time to fully grasp, I am personally still on a process of really getting it, it comes when it comes, with time, and God is my Guide, and in Him I put my listenining.

God does whatever He Wills. If God wants to punish disbelievers with hell, then that's easy for Him, and God is the Most High and Most Mighty, and He is the Most Wise, and over all things in the heavens and the earth and everything in between them, God is Knowing and a Witness, and of ALL of existence, God is it's Ruler and Creator, and ALL of reality is Decided by God, all things is in God's Hands, and in God Alone we totally and utterly rely ourselves upon.

Hell and Paradise are True and Real. The Quran states so immensely and clearly.

Anyone denying hell is a kaffir and an infidel.

To God is our certain return, and to Him lies the Final Judgment and Decision,
 
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