which is exactly the point. If I said mosques, ramadan, burqas etc is not allowed in Hinduism and therefore you are not supposed do all that in India, how would that feel?
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which is exactly the point. If I said mosques, ramadan, burqas etc is not allowed in Hinduism and therefore you are not supposed do all that in India, how would that feel?
'Aleena
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I do thank Allah (swt) for that.
Bhakti we are not against Hindus in general (except those who hate us).
Most of my friends are hindus and they are all really nice. They respect me and my religion.
As i pointed out to u in one of the threads that u have closed ur mind. U have some very strong conviction about the concept of God and worship.
U are not going to benefit from this forum unless u shed away that attitude which i think is not possible for u(except if Allah wishes).
If u r here to promote that every one should live in peace and harmony than we do agree wid u. But if u suggest that for attaining harmony we need to compromise on our religion then we disagree.
Islam does promote religious tolerance without compromising on its teaching.
Salam.
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That is the reason i consider India best among democratic nations.
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“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”
[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]
Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
i.e., I have created them so that I may command them to worship Me, not because I have any need of them. ‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (alone)” willingly or unwillingly. This is the view favoured by Ibn Jareer. Ibn Jurayj said: i.e., except that they should know Me. Al-Rabee’ ibn Anas said: “Except that they should worship Me”, i.e., for the purpose of worship. End quote.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 4/239
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Allaah, may He be exalted, created mankind to worship Him and to know Him by His names and attributes, and to enjoin that upon them. Whoever submits to Him and does what is enjoined upon him will be one of those who are successful, but whoever turns away from that, they are the losers. He will inevitably gather them together in the Hereafter where He will reward or punish them for what He commanded and forbade them to do
Ramadhan
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I find it interesting that as a hindu you'd rather thank the stars than those whom you consider as your god, ie. shiva, vishnu, brahma, etc etc.
Shouldnt you worship stars then?
abdussattar
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Read the post in my signature....
abdussattar
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Read this article :-
Is Islam a Birthright?
But, first, think for a while: What does the word ‘Muslim’, which we all use so often,
really mean? Can a person a Muslim simply because he is the son or grandson of a
Muslim? Is a Muslim born a Muslim just as a Hindu Brahman’s son is a Brahman, or an
Englishman’s son is born an Englishman, or a white man’s son is born a white man, or
a Negro’s son is born a Negro? Are ‘Muslims’ a race, a nationality or a caste? Do
Muslims belong to the Muslim Ummah like Aryans belong to the Aryan race? And, just
as a Japanese is a Japanese because he is born in Japan, is a Muslim similarly a
Muslim by being born in a Muslim country?
Your answer to these questions will surely be: No. A Muslim does not become truly a
Muslim simply because he is born a Muslim. A Muslim is not a Muslim because he
belongs to any particular race; he is a Muslim because he follows Islam. If he
renounces Islam, he ceases to be a Muslim. Any person, whether a Brahman or a
Rajput, an Englishman or a Japanese, a white or a black, will, on accepting Islam,
become a full member of the Muslim community; while a person born in a Muslim
home may be expelled from the Muslim community if he gives up following Islam,
even though he may be a descendant of the prophet, an Arab or Pathan.
Such will surely be your answer to my question. This establishes that the greatest gift
of Allah which you enjoy-that of being a Muslim-is not something automatically
inherited from your parents, which remains yours for life by right irrespective of your
attitudes and behaviour. It is a gift which you must continually strive to deserve if you
want to retain it; if you are indifferent to it, it may be taken away from you, God
forbid.
abdussattar
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It wold not feel bad if you removed the SECULAR word from the indian constitutions and replaced it with HINDU.
Why do you think India is great?
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abdussattar
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Ofcourse , the stampedes were not intentional, while the stoning was.... (or it wasnt?)
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Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters in Islam and to our dear guest bhakti,
I do this for the sake of ALLAH(swt) and justice.
I'm an old member of this forum probably no one remebers me or even cares
, I don't participate much as I got very busy lately although I love to pass by this beloved forum from now to then. I came past this thread and I followed the conversation as it progressed. I urge my borthers and sisters to respect our dear guest bhakti as he is a respectful individual and from his previous threads he has proved to be a very sane and right-minded person. I respect all the member's views but let's try not to offend each other's faith, what bhakti says regarding the rationale of the practices in his religion should be accepted as he has the right to represent his religion, we as muslims should take things on face value and not search for intentions. Maybe he can offer an apology for his statements that offended the members and we can reciprocate back. Then the conversation can continue.
Wama tawfiqi illa billah.
So Allah created us for his creation to worship him. Doesnt that sound egotisical? Also, since Allah knows where a person will end up even before he is born, Allah is essentially creating someone to go to hell or heaven.
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The point is .. the sahaba who reverted to islam werent born of the muslim family they were christian, jews or idol worhsippers, but they accepted the faith when the truth was presented to them and some rejected it like you are rejecting now and like we say it everytime you will be accoutable on the day of judgement.
common now buddy, who is having problems with large crowd of muslim going and coming to mosque????, there are hardly few muslim pray salaat now
and believe me iv travelled all over india and i havent seen anyone non muslim having problem with a muslim who is "going and coming" to mosque
on the other hand u people do traffic jam and yesterday i saw a man on truck on which they had ganpati, he was dancing and was so drunk that he didnt know what he was doing,, IS THAT HOW you worship?
AGAIN he doesnt need anything, he created us out of nothingness with a purpose of US serving and worshipping, infact i should be happy he gave us a purpose to worship him and every muslim is proud that he worship the real almighty god
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This is common with idol worshippers, they can make anything into god, because they worship the created things (stars, humans, idols and the list goes on) except worshiping the creator
Ramadhan
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I am posting the thread that is also currently happening in the general section, where I think brother muhammad explains the issue much better than I:
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134300223-if-we-were-created-slaves-2.html
Assalaamu Alaykum,
We are all slaves of Allaah (swt) because He created us and to Him is our return. But Allaah (swt) has given us the freedom to make choices in this short life, to test us whether we will be obedient slaves or disobedient ones. And we have been told the consequences of each choice.
Quote Originally Posted by LauraS
The word "slave" really bothers me. Is is believed that we were only created to worship Allah? I read in another thread that we were created to look after the world sort of thing. Because otherwise it's just like we were created specifically to worship Him, but we're not allowed to question why, just to accept it's God's will and that He is perfect because He tells us so. :/
It is indeed true that we were only created to worship Allaah (swt). Allaah (swt) did not place us on earth for play and amusement, rather we are all heading for our true home in the afterlife. But it should be noted that worship is not restricted to praying in a mosque. Actions like looking after the world - looking after other people and even animals and plants are all forms of worship of Allaah (swt). Worship in Islam is a very broad concept and includes any action that Allaah (swt) loves, and staying away from whatever He dislikes. Allaah (swt) has given us responsibilities in this life such as looking after each other, especially being kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the poor etc. so fulfilment of all this is a very important form of worship. Even actions of the heart like loving, fearing, being patient and having trust in Allaah (swt) are forms of worship and are in fact what much of the Qur'an emphasises. Thus, many ordinary actions can actually become acts of worship based upon one's intention for doing them.
This from Islamqa answer best your question:
A questioner is asking: Why did Allaah create mankind when He knows what their destiny will be, in Paradise or Hell?
I have a question which I hope you will answer, may Allaah reward you with good.
If Allaah knows the unseen, and He knows what people will do, and He knows who will go to Hell or to Paradise – because the knowledge of Allaah precedes all things – then why did He create us? Why did Allaah send Iblees down to earth with Adam and Hawwa’, when He knew that repentance would not benefit him and He had already decreed that he will go to Hell?.
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:
Knowledge of the purpose for which Allaah created mankind may answer many questions that the atheists raise in order to confuse people, and by which some Muslims may be influenced. These issues include the idea that Allaah created mankind in order to put some of them in Paradise and the others in Hell! This is a mistaken notion. It is not for this purpose that Allaah created mankind and brought them into being.
The brother who asked this question – and whoever wants to know the truth – should realize that the purpose behind the creation of man and the creation of heaven and earth, is that Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, may be known and that His Oneness (Tawheed) may be affirmed and that He may be obeyed.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”
[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56].
Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
i.e., I have only created them so that I might command them to worship Me, not because I am in need of them.
‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (Alone)” means: except that they should affirm their servitude to Me, willingly or unwillingly.
This was the view favoured by Ibn Jareer.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer (4/239).
Many people are confused about what is wanted from the slaves of Allaah, which is adhering to His religion which He has chosen for them, and what is wanted for them, which is rewarding the obedient and punishing the disobedient. This is part of Allaah’s decree which will never be altered or changed.
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
As for the truth which is the purpose for which He created them – i.e., the heavens and the earth and everything in between them – it is a twofold aim: what is wanted from His slaves and what is wanted for them.
What He wants from them: is that they should know Allaah and the attributes of His perfection, may He be glorified and exalted, and they should worship Him alone and not associate anything with Him, so He alone will be their God, the One Whom they worship and obey and love. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“It is Allaah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven). His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allaah has power over all things, and that Allaah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge”
[al-Talaaq 65:12].
He told us that he created the universe so that His slaves might know the perfection of His power, the all-encompassing nature of His knowledge, which requires knowing Him and His names and attributes, and affirming His oneness.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”
[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56].
This purpose is what is wanted from His slaves, which is that they should know their Lord and worship Him alone.
As for what is wanted for them, it is recompense on the basis of justice and divine grace, reward and punishment. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And to Allaah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise)”
[al-Najm 5 :31]
“Verily, the Hour is coming __ and I am almost hiding it __that every person may be rewarded for that which he strives”
[Ta-Ha 20:15]
“In order that He may make manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that those who disbelieved (in Resurrection, and in the Oneness of Allaah) may know that they were liars”
[al-Nahl 16:39]
“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawâ) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allaah, your Lord; so worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember? 4. To Him is the return of all of you. The Promise of Allaah is true. It is He Who begins the creation and then will repeat it, that He may reward with justice those who believed and did deeds of righteousness. But those who disbelieved will have a drink of boiling fluids and painful torment because they used to disbelieve”
[Yoonus 10:3, 4].
Badaa’i’ al-Fawaa’id (4/971).
For more information on the wisdom behind the creation of mankind, please see the answer to question no. 45529.
Secondly:
Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allaah after the (coming of) Messengers. And Allaah is Ever All‑Powerful, All‑Wise”
[al-Nisa’ 4:165].
Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
In this aayah it clearly states that it is essential to leave no excuse for anyone, by sending the Messengers who give glad tidings of Paradise to those who obey them and give warning of Hell to those who disobey them.
This excuse is completely ruled out here by the sending of the Messengers with glad tidings and warnings, as is stated at the end of Soorah Ta-Ha where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And if We had destroyed them with a torment before this (i.e. Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Qur’aan), they would surely, have said: ‘Our Lord! If only You had sent us a Messenger, we should certainly have followed Your Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), before we were humiliated and disgraced’” [Ta-Ha 20:134].
It is also referred to in Soorah al-Qasas where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if (We had) not (sent you to the people of Makkah) __ in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they would have said: ‘Our Lord! Why did You not send us a Messenger? We would then have followed Your Ayaat (Verses of the Qur’aan) and would have been among the believers’”
[al-Qasas 28:47].
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrongdoing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allaah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent)”
[al-An’aam 6:131]
“O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: ‘There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner.’ But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner”
[al-Maa’idah 5:19]
“And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’aan) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allaah (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. saved from the torment of Hell).
156. Lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “The Book was sent down only to two sects before us (the Jews and the Christians), and for our part, we were in fact unaware of what they studied.”
157. Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely, have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians).” So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur’aan) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy”
[al-An’aam 6:155-157]
And there are other similar verses.
It is clear from these and other aayahs of the Qur’aan that Allaah does not punish anyone except after warning and leaving no excuse on the lips of the Messengers (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them). Allaah clearly states in many aayahs that he does not admit anyone to Hell except after leaving no excuse and warning on the lips of the Messengers, for example He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: ‘Did no warner come to you?’
9. They will say: ‘Yes, indeed a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: “‘Allaah never sent down anything (of Revelation)”’”
[al-Mulk 67:8]
It is well known that the words of Allaah “Every time a group is cast therein” includes all the groups who will be thrown into it.
Abu Hayyaan said in al-Bahr al-Muheet, commenting on the aayah under discussion: [The word] kullama (“every time”) indicates a general meaning encompassing every time throwing is done, so it includes all those who are thrown in.
Another example is the aayah in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups till when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of the prisoners). And its keepers will say: ‘Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?’ They will say: ‘Yes,’ but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!”
[al-Zumar 39:71].
The words “And those who disbelieved will be driven” are general in meaning and include all the kuffaar.
The words “And those who disbelieved will be driven… They will say: ‘Yes…’ ” are general in meaning and include all the kuffaar. This clearly shows that the all the people of Hell will have been warned by their Messengers in this world, but they disobeyed the command of their Lord, as is clear.
Adwa’ al-Bayaan (3/66, 67)
We believe that knowing the purpose for which Allaah created mankind, and knowing that Allaah will not punish anyone according to what He knows about them, rather it will be recompense for his deeds in this world, and therefore he will not have any excuse before Allaah – this is the answer to the confusion mentioned in the question.
Secondly:
With regard to the question of why Iblees was sent down to earth with Adam and his progeny, the difference between Adam’s coming down and that of Iblees is that when Adam (peace be upon him) was sent down to earth he had repented to Allaah, so Allaah accepted his repentance and guided him, and sent him down to this earth as an honoured Prophet who had been forgiven, and he was to remain in this world until the appointed time that Allaah has decreed for him.
As for the enemy of Allaah Iblees, he did not repent at all or regret his sin, or turn back; he has no hope of repentance and never tried to repent. Rather he was stubborn and arrogant, and he overstepped the mark and disbelieved. But he asked Allaah not to hasten his doom and punishment, but rather to delay that until the Day of the appointed time. He did not ask for that so that he would have the opportunity to repent, rather it was so that he could persist in following the path of doom, and take the misguided people to Hell with him. He came down as a leader of his party, the losing party of the shaytaan, so that Allaah’s wisdom concerning His creation might be fulfilled, and so that He might test them: will they obey Him or will they obey His enemy?, and so that the ultimate doom will be the share of this accursed enemy, because of his stubbornness and evildoing, and he deserves to be a loser.
And Allaah knows best.
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I know you don't hate all hindus just like I dont hate all muslims. But a muslim's general attitude towards hindu faith is appalling. When you see a guy worshipping an idol, you automatically assume he's an idiot who doesn't know squat. If this attitude is that of an "open mind" then your closed mind argument is rather funny. Maybe you should realize that there are intelligent people among Hindu people too. So if an intelligent Hindu still subscribes to worshiping an idol then surely there must be some intelligent reason to it. This is when you set forth questioning the reasons and then arrive at the final philosophy though a series of questions. This should be the open-minded man's attitude. Instead Muslims generally use the word 'idol worshipers' in a highly derogatory sense and with a false sense of supremacy simply disregard all Hindu beliefs as garbage. Is this how an "open mind" thinks?
Sure...that stuff is quite obvious. But the unassailable fact is that there is a lot of emotional effort involved in converting from one religion to another which is why a majority die in the same faith as they are born. So does that mean that one born in a Muslim faith requires far lesser effort (in fact his job is almost half-done) to reach paradise while the non-muslim needs to undertake enormous emotional upheaval (which many are incapable of) to reach paradise? Isn't that biased?
Don't take me wrong but I hate it when people say that man. What you say suggests that removing the word secular gives you a free hand to curb minority faiths as you want. Simply having the word SECULAR in the constitution of a country itself is a glowing tribute to the tolerance of the majority religion of that nation. And a nation's failure to do so emphasizes the underlying intolerance of it's majority religion.
In other words, not having SECULAR in a country's constitution is nothing to be proud of. And this is especially so in this age of globalization when everyone is interdependent on the other. You can't demean another's faith while still relying on other people of that faith
I appreciate it GreyKode. Props to you! I have apologized profusely before in this thread and I would like to apologize again if anyone's hurt here. I assure all of you I have no malicious intent. If there is a majority consensus here that I'm crossing the limits in anyway, then I'll just stop.
You mean he created us first and then thought let's give them a purpose. So initial creation had no purpose? Or did he first think of the purpose of his creation and then created? In which case creation happened so we could all worship him.
This is the crap that gets thrown at me inspite of all my exposition on this thread on idol worship. Maybe k.aleena should adjudicate whose mind is closed here?
I love and immensely admire that explanation. I hope the Quran explicitly emphasizes this attitude towards worship coz I firmly believe that if you try to be a good guy and have noble intentions and harbour no ill will, then you have nothing to fear from. No hell-fire or no wrath of the supernatural. However, the pivotal question is what happens if I perform good deeds and all that but fail in worshiping Allah? Does that still send me to hell? Which would mean my going to paradise is a gift in exchange for me worshiping Allah....which brings us back to square one.
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I suppose these verses from your own scripture are [edit]
Yajurved Chapter 32 Verse 3
“There is no image of Him”
(Svetashvatara Upanishad 4:19, Yajurved 32:3
Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7 verse 20:
“Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires they worship demigods i.e. idols.(Bhagavad Gita 7:20)
Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 9
“They enter darkness those who worship natural things (for e.g. air, water, fire, etc.). They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti i.e. created things (for e.g. table, chair, car, idol etc.)
(Yajurveda 40:8)
“He is bodiless and pure”.
“His form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye”.
(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:20
(Bhagwad Geeta 7:20)
“He is one only without a second.”
(Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)
Of Him there are neither parents nor Lord.”
(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)
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'Aleena
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You got me wrong there. I presume if a person visits an islamic forum( or any other religios forum) he does so either to have a better understanding of that religion or (a peron who has not made a decision yet as to what religion to follow) to seek the true religion .
You have made it pretty clear that you will never be able to understand the islamic concept of God and its prescribed way worshipping.
By closed mind i meant that you have already made up your mind that God can be worshipped through any form and by any means.
Even i have closed my mind from other beliefs which are not in accordance with the Quran and the Hadeeth ( which was not the case few months back).
If any of my posts has suggested this then i ask Allah for forgiveness coz He says:
And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.
6:108)
I apologise if any of my comments have offended you.
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What is the source of this article? I might be interested in reading more by this author.
Insecured soul
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No we dont take them as idiots but we feel pity for them that they are worshipping idols, there is huge difference in both the words and in thier meanings.
Our prophet pbuh named a guy "abu jahl" which means father of ignorance though he was a very intellectual guy and a huge businessman but he didnt accept the word of the almighty god and became muslim hence he was named the father of ignorance.
Your intellect should lead you to acknowledge the truth and thats why allah azzawajal says in the quran that in hellfire people will curse thier intellectual for bringing them into this misery and pain and afterall what use is the intellect when it does not lead u to truth and benefits you?
I know what u want buddy and i.e. respect from muslim fellows, see a muslim will never disperect ur idols but we cant help feeling pity for a non muslim who rejects the truth
I can only to tell u on this that allah doesnt think that way, he knows the unknown and the future, past n everything u wanna know what he thought 1st last and in the middle??? I DONT KNOW.... may be someone can answer u on this,
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