Open Challenge to Christians

[POBook]

We can try now if you like--still learning to use the chat room

 

[waji]

Greetings,

"The Developing Human" is a medical textbook by, guess who, Dr. Keith Moore! Does he mention the Qur'an in that book?

By the way, when did the new discovery that you speak of take place? Can you provide a non-Keith Moore source for it?

Peace

can u provide me the better source than Dr.Keith Moore Who is well known in the study of Embryology
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Greetings,


Well, since no Christians seem to want to debate with you, I thought I would.



Well, what a good argument! If all the translations are wrong, then I just won't bother reading the Qur'an at all.



Well, in the translation you've given that's what it says. What does it say in the original Arabic?



Ah, Dr. Moore! He crops up again and again. I'm so glad he managed to get funding for his textbooks. If he was actually led to believe that the Qur'an was accurate, and therefore must be from god, don't you think he would have converted to Islam by now?



It appears to be in every translation I've seen except yours.



"The Developing Human" is a medical textbook by, guess who, Dr. Keith Moore! Does he mention the Qur'an in that book?

By the way, when did the new discovery that you speak of take place? Can you provide a non-Keith Moore source for it?

Peace

You should know there is an Islamic edition to that book that Dr. Keith Moore has done, And iin that year He had recieved an award for The best book written by a single author on embrology in the islamic edition which gives citations of Quran and the human embryo in modern science.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Greetings,

I'm not a Christian, but I'd like to accept the challenge on a small scale by making one point on the famous Qur'anic embryology. It's often touted as being a miraculous premonition of modern science, whereas there are in fact other such descriptions of the developing embryo in writings long before the Qur'an. Also, the Qur'anic description does not correspond to modern knowledge - there is at least one mistake.

Let's look at one of the verses from surah 23:

14:
And we created man from a portion of clay. Then we made him a drop in a firm place. Then we formed the drop into a clot, then we formed the clot into a morsel, then we formed the morsel into bones, then we clothed the bones with flesh. Then we brought it forth as another creation. Blessed is Allaah, the best of creators.

The highlighted section implies that the bones are formed before soft tissue, which is incorrect. In fact, cartilage in the form of a skeleton turns into bone while muscles are formed around it at the same time. The Qur'an makes no mention of this process.

If god wrote the Qur'an, and has perfect knowledge of all things, he surely wouldn't have made this mistake, would he?

Peace

Ill give you another response my friend,

A chewed like lump which turns into a bone.

023.014 Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create!

Foetus can also be known as a chewed like substance can be known as cartilage as well. Both are like a Foetus Lump. Then from that Allah swt says he made out of that LUMP BONES And clothed the bones with FLESH.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

POBook how do you want to do this because we can debate in a instant messanger chat, then post it on here. or chat? or board?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

It seems everytime you give a reply to Gibson, he gives a weak statement back, I gave you the answer accept it do what you want with it. Even if i gave you the best answer, you would still ignore it and give another reply so in essence no point in debating with you.

Do you know what the word debate means? It's not a case of giving an answer that you think is right and then assuming you've won the argument. That's not how it works - we have to question each other's assumptions and either persuade our opponent or reach a compromise.

can u provide me the better source than Dr.Keith Moore Who is well known in the study of Embryology

Here's a source:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~soul/pages/facts/foetal_development.htm

Note: Day 28 - Muscles are forming along the spine.
Day 42 - The skeleton has formed.

Here's another:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A1297974?s_id=3

You should know there is an Islamic edition to that book that Dr. Keith Moore has done, And iin that year He had recieved an award for The best book written by a single author on embrology in the islamic edition which gives citations of Quran and the human embryo in modern science.

I do know this. He wrote that book to obtain funding for his other work. Again, if he was so convinced that the Qur'an was accurate in its embryology, don't you think he would have become a Muslim by now?

Peace

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Greetings,


Do you know what the word debate means? It's not a case of giving an answer that you think is right and then assuming you've won the argument. That's not how it works - we have to question each other's assumptions and either persuade our opponent or reach a compromise.


Here's a source:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~soul/pages/facts/foetal_development.htm

Note: Day 28 - Muscles are forming along the spine.
Day 42 - The skeleton has formed.



I do know this. He wrote that book to obtain funding for his other work. Again, if he was so convinced that the Qur'an was accurate in its embryology, don't you think he would have become a Muslim by now?

Peace

Salam Alaikam

Lol brothers and sisters everyone knows what hes basically trying to say Lol but let him its ok, INshallah he will see the true path of Islam and be set on it INshallah.

I think i do know the word debate, ive been debating for approximately 5 years now on many contexts in martial arts, philosophy and just recently religion. Im not assuming i won the arguement, I know i have because i provided the evidence to backup my claim but you still deny it. That is why i said do what you want i gave you the answers im done debating with you.

And if i still have not persuaded you for an answer, then i dont know what else you want. You didnt make any assumptions, you asked what that Ayat was talking about thinking it was a clear contradiction to modern science and i proved you wrong. And again your trying to deny it even though i backed it up with ESTABLISHED Scientific Evidence

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

(I felt this thread calling me )

The allegation concerning verse 23:14, is, like all other allegations against the Qur'an, one that has already been refuted by Muslims, both medical doctors and exegetes. I was pretty sure I answered this somewhere else on the forums and had some links to articles on this, but I until I find them, I'll just post this link:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=9&main_cat_id=31

As for the issue of why Dr. Moore didn't convert (which seems to be the only argument non-muslims bring in response to the positive comments Dr. Moore said about the Qur'an), the answer is that Muslims are already familiar with the fact that many people will recognize the truth in something yet may not necessarily embrace it for a number of reasons. We already have an example of this in the hadith about the Roman emperor who believed Muhammad pbuh was truly a Prophet but didn't convert out of political pressure. For others it is societal pressure or family pressure. And of course we can't exclude the fact that Dr. Moore may believe the Qur'an to be the word of God in his heart and may have faith in Islam, but for whatever reasons doesn't publically practice. The bottom line is that God is going to judge Dr. Moore, not me. The only thing relevant here is Dr. Moore's comments as an expert in embryology.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

Ok i formulized the format

POBook You will go first with your statement On how the Bible Is Correct on Modern science and any other alleged contradictions And you will be allowed to Point any Supposad Contradiction From The Glorious Quran if you can come up with any.
Your Post must be on the topic of modern science and/or any contradictions.

You CANNOT Edit your Post, If Edited your post will not count so neither of US can edit the posts. Once you Post your Information. Its done

. Same Format and rules.

No Editing.

When Your done, Then i will Post mine

PLEASE NOBODY POST INBETWEEN POSTS, DO NOT INTERFERE THIS IS STRICTLY BETWEEN ME AND POBOOK UNTIL THE REBUTTALS ARE DONE.

PObook After i go,

You will Post your Rebuttals to my post.

Then i will post my rebuttals to your following.

NO EDITING

If anyone would like to Help POBOOK i advise them to PM HIM it is allowed,

If Anyone would like to PM Me about anything During this debate be and feel free 2.

After My rebuttal is Posted THEN! everyone can comment

agreed POBOOK?

 

[Kittygyal]

so duz dat mean i can't cum in that is so not fair!

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

You can come in after the rebuttals, this way i dont want to hear from them ya know OH! That girl Just came in and PUT IT ALL OUT THERE and he got All that help and everyone was viewing the thread and everything and saw that. This way you know its clean and crisp. He post, i post, he gives rebuttal, i give rebuttal, Then Everyone comments! And INSHALLAH he will see the truth of Islam and follower of the righteous path.

 

[Kittygyal]

k all be the body guard

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Salam Alaikam

Yeah just you know just watch on, PObook If you accept the challenge then i would expect your next post to be your presentation, You may take a day, week, month Whichever seems fit to you.

I only need 1 day and I Will give you everything , but i will be waiting for your First Presentation

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I know you've 'formulized the format', but your last post directed at me deserves a response.

I think i do know the word debate, ive been debating for approximately 5 years now on many contexts in martial arts, philosophy and just recently religion.

I'd love to see you debate on philosophy. What kind of philosophy are you familiar with?

Im not assuming i won the arguement, I know i have because i provided the evidence to backup my claim but you still deny it. That is why i said do what you want i gave you the answers im done debating with you.

If you can't see an assumption in that first sentence you're not much of a philosopher.

And if i still have not persuaded you for an answer, then i dont know what else you want.

You answer your own question. I'm not persuaded, and I want to be. That, as you know, is how debates work. If you just say, "right, that's it, I'm done debating with you" then you have lost the debate.

You didnt make any assumptions, you asked what that Ayat was talking about thinking it was a clear contradiction to modern science and i proved you wrong.

You did no such thing. You may think you've proved me wrong, but until I'm persuaded of that the debate isn't over.

And again your trying to deny it even though i backed it up with ESTABLISHED Scientific Evidence

The evidence you've reported is far from established.

So far you've quoted from Keith Moore, an embryologist of some repute who agreed to study the Qur'an and report on its accuracy. He was paid well for a textbook partly derived from his findings to be published in the Middle East (the Islamic edition you mentioned). He went along with the Qur'anic view, got his funding, and moved on. None of the books he's published since have endorsed the Qur'anic view.

In fact, can you find any other embryologists who support the Qur'anic view?

Peace

 

[waji]

Peace to czgibson
Well go and search more for those kind of sites u will find more so as i if i would have been student of biology well now can u answer me a very simple question
when u start the construction of a building which thing make first the structure on which the building have to stand, or the walls ??

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Assalam Alaikam

Besides PObook is there Any christian that wants to prove their Christianity over Islam?

Ohhh very very crucial i forgot this Part,

Whoever wins the Debate The loser must convert to that Religion You still in PObook?

I need a third source Judge Neither a christian or Muslim to Judge this way it seems fair,

An athiest perhaps that favors neither sides so its fair.

 

[Salaam]

Whoever wins the Debate They must convert to that Religion You still in PObook?

Salaam,

what do you mean by this ^ "Whoever wins the Debate They must convert to that Religion"

 

[shanu]

salam
wow! excellent respose mahdisoldier so well explained
im really very pleased and wkas bro's respose is equally good
Peace on POBook, im looking forward to more of ur posts

 

[sumay28]

Let the games begin.

I can't wait

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I need a third source Judge Neither a christian or Muslim to Judge this way it seems fair,

An athiest perhaps that favors neither sides so its fair.

I don't think I'd make a very good judge, since I'd probably be unconvinced by either side!

Peace