Open Challenge to Christians

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

In Saudi Arabia there are only Islamic courts that work according to the rulings of Islamic scholars.

Islam is not based upon what people say; it is based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. I pointed this out to justahumane in the following thread on Shari'ah law:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/4498-shariah-law.html

Just because something is done in Saudi does not mean that it is automatically the Islamic ruling, and this is very easily illustrated in the example you gave,

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/report.html

The case you cited is a null example because there is no hudood (prescribed) punishment in Islam for participating in a secret Roman Catholic service. The punishment referred to is Ta'zir, meaning discretionary - based on the views of the judges and the local law. There is not a single ayah in the Qur'an or a single hadith which prescribes such a punishment. So this is Saudi law, not Islamic law. There is no way possible that anyone can attribute this law to Islam, even Saudi scholars wouldn't call it an Islamic law.

So I'm interested in discussing Islamic laws, not Saudi laws. The problem here is that you are ignorant as to how Shari'ah law works. You don't know the distinction between hudood and ta'zir. That is why you bring examples from Saudi and keep thinking it has something to do with Islam, when it doesn't. Islamic law has prescribed a few fixed punishments (hudood), and has allowed the remaining penal system to be constructed upon what is deemed suitable and appropriate in the society that it is being applied in.

Aside from that, it seems you also fail to distinguish between the Saudi scholars of Islam, and the Saudi regime. If the regime arrests its own scholars, how can you attribute these rulings to the Saudi Islamic scholars?! The Saudi gov't has arrested Shaykh Hudhaify, Shaykh Muhaisany, Shaykh Salman Al-Awdah, just to mention a few famous names. So if the gov't arrests their Islamic scholars and abuses them, how can you attribute their rulings to the same scholars they abuse?!

And in case Hana_Aku checks this message, are you sure you still want to go to Saudi Arabia and tell the ulama that they are wrong in their interpretation of Islam?

It is not the Ulama that are the issue here. The issue here is the Saudi regime which arrests and detains its Ulama when they speak out against the government.

 

[Turin Turambar]

I will quote for you what the Saudi government says about itself on the following official link

http://www.saudinf.com/main/c2.htm

“The Courts/Judiciary in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia now issues its rulings/judgments/decisions on the basis of what is stated in the Holy Qur’an and on the Sunna (practices/mode of life) of the Prophet”

So we see that EVERY judicial punishment applied in the country is a reflection of Islamic teaching. I don’t say so. The Saudi government says so.

But perhaps you belong to the “Hana_Aku school of Islamic Thought” and you will tell me that what we see in Saudi Arabia “is not real Islam”.

Why should I believe you? Are you really a better and more respected Quranic scholar than the hundreds of Saudi Ulama who spend their entire lives interpreting your sacred book? They all speak the classical Arabic in which the Quran was written and you don’t. They are the sons and grandsons of Ulama who had the exact same views, going back in an unbroken chain to the days of Muhammad himself. Why should I think that your Islamic interpretation is right and theirs is wrong? If Islam gets to rule the country in which I live, how do I know that your interpretation will prevail and not theirs?

And we know what is their knowledgeable interpretation of Islam. A whip, with a heavy lead piece attached to the tip, destroying the back of an innocent and poor Filipino worker.

 

[sevenxtrust]

I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and gladly accept the challenge, with all the power that God has freely given to me!!

 

[sevenxtrust]

I would be impresssed if a christian could answer all these questions psoed By Yusuf Estes

THE QUESTIONS NOBODY WANTS TO ANSWER -
Chaplain Yusuf Estes
What about the Bible? Who actually wrote it?
What was the original language of the Bible? (Hebrew? Aramaic? Koine Greek?)
NOTE: - The Bible was never in English during the time of any prophet (not even Muhammad) - because English did not exist until after 1066 AD!
Does the Bible exist in the original form anywhere on earth? (No)
Why does the Catholic Bible has seven (7) more books than the Protestant Bible?
Why do these two Bibles have different versions of the same books?
Why are there so many mistakes and errors are from the very first verse right up to the very last verse?
Why do 'Born Again Christians' teach concepts that are not from the Bible?
There is no word "Trinity" in the Bible in any version of any language
The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' beliefs
Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'
("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani? - My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?") [Mk 15:34]
How can Jesus be the "Only Begotten Son" of John 3:16? When in Psalms 2:7 David is God's "Begotten Son?"
Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?
What happens to people who died before Jesus came?
What happens to those who never hear this message?
What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian?
Didn't God create Adam from dirt? -- So, why does he need Mary to make Jesus?
And what about God?
How can God create Himself?
How can God be a man?
How can a man be a God?
How can God have a son?
The Bible says "Seth (is) the son of Adam" and that"Adam is the son of God." [Lk 3:36]
Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?
And what about Jesus?
Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did! [Mk 15:21]
Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days -- (from the 3rd to the 9th hour) [Mk 15:25 & 15:33]
Jesus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights!
Jesus DID NOT claim to be God - or even equal to God!

I can answer everyone of these questions, without study. You need the spirit of THE TRUE GOD to know.

 

[Nawal89]

^then why dont you go ahead?

 

[sevenxtrust]

^then why dont you go ahead?

I will, but I also ask your patience as I write these out first, than transfer them to this forum.

Thank You for this privilege, and thanks be to My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and my God through him.

 

[*Hana*]

Turin:

But perhaps you belong to the “Hana_Aku school of Islamic Thought” and you will tell me that what we see in Saudi Arabia “is not real Islam”.

Don't be slashin' Hana_Aku :mmokay: This is not MY school of thought. Every Muslim knows there is no compulsion in Islam and when someone, regardless of their rank or Power, forces others to do something and inflict punishment not established in the Qur'an or Sunnah....it is man-made. As I said before, there is no earthly punishment on me for not wearing hijab, paying zakat, praying, etc., but on the day of judgement....be sure I will answer for that! Committing murder, rape, theft, etc., that's different...we are given boundries and stepping outside of those boundries warrants punishment. These crimes and just punishments are well known in Islam, and they apply to all, not just a select a few.

So, it's not complicated...if it's not taught in Islam, it's man-made. If you really want to prove these things are 100% Islamic...bring the verses and authentic Hadith.

And no more slashin' Hana. :X

Hana

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I will quote for you what the Saudi government says about itself on the following official link

http://www.saudinf.com/main/c2.htm

“The Courts/Judiciary in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia now issues its rulings/judgments/decisions on the basis of what is stated in the Holy Qur’an and on the Sunna (practices/mode of life) of the Prophet”

1. This doesn't help you if you don't understand Shari'ah law. There is nothing in the Qur'an and Sunnah which prescribes the punishment you quoted and there is not a single muslim scholar - including Saudis - on the face of this planet who would dispute this claim with me. The punishment referred to was Ta'zir, meaning discretionary. The same is true for other punishments, such as traffic violations, drug trafficking, and all the other offences for which Islam has not prescribed a punishment. For these, Ta'zir punishments are given.

The Saudi government says so

There is a difference between the Saudi government and the Saudi scholars. You neglected to respond to my point that the SAUDI GOVERNMENT ARRESTS SAUDI SCHOLARS.

2. The second point is related to what you have said:

But perhaps you belong to the “Hana_Aku school of Islamic Thought” and you will tell me that what we see in Saudi Arabia “is not real Islam”.

Well the fact is that Saudi is arresting their own Muslim scholars, so it is not an issue of schools of thought!

Why should I believe you? Are you really a better and more respected Quranic scholar than the hundreds of Saudi Ulama who spend their entire lives interpreting your sacred book?

The Saudi Ulama who I told you were arrested??

If the Saudi Ulama get arrested by the Saudi government then how cna you attribut the governments actions to the Saudi Ulama?!

 

[Turin Turambar]

And now going back to your other post. How is it possible that when I present to you the living, existing, real example that I want for the world you say:

“Saudi Arabia is not my best example. The Islamic State under the rule of Umar ibn Al-Khattab is.”

Why don’t you give me an example from Fairyland? Why should I believe the Islamic legends about those days any more than in believe in what the Brothers Grimm wrote? What would you think of me if I say that my ideal society is that of King Arthur and the Round Table? Do you realize that anything from those days is impossible to verify? All we have are legends written by Muslims for Muslims, saying things like “back then there was peace in the world, all men were kind and truthful and all women were beautiful as gazelles” Why on Earth would I believe on anything that cannot be proven by an impartial observer?

But even more. How is it possible that you are preaching as ideal for today a system that only worked TWELVE HUNDRED years ago? How is it possible that it never worked again? At least two hundred years ago, so that some independent historian might furnish us with unbiased information? Perhaps three hundred years ago?

There ARE a few countries that call themselves Islamic today: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan. The Taliban, when they ruled, also called themselves Islamic. Why don’t you choose one of those examples to present as your ideal society?

Perhaps you see my problem: if that is the best we can get from a system that calls itself Islamic, how do we know that it will be different when you are in charge of deciding what is Islamic and what is not? How do we know that we are going to get the wonderful days of Umar ibn Al-Khattab instead of the not-so-wonderful of the Saudi Princes?

By the way, I just read in the news a moment ago that there was a bombing of a Sunni mosque this time in Baghdad. The Shias did it. But according to you all Muslims agree on the content of the Quran , because there is absolutely no ambiguity in it, so it has to be a mistake made by the news agency. Sunnis and Shias, devout Muslims, are not killing each other as I read. Probably I just thought I had read something like that.

 

[*Hana*]

By the way, I just read a moment ago that there was a bombing of a Sunni mosque this time in Baghdad. The Shias did it. But all Muslims agree on the content of the Quran according to you, because there is absolutely no ambiguity in it, so it has to be a mistake. Probably I just thought I read it.

What exactly do you mean by that?? It doesn't make any sense. :?

 

[Turin Turambar]

Ansar Al-‘Adl,

I forgot one thing in my previous post! You say that what the Saudi regime does is not based on Islam because they arrest and persecute the ulama. Your words were:

“If the Saudi Ulama get arrested by the Saudi government then how cna you attribut the governments actions to the Saudi Ulama?!”

That is obviously nonsense but today it is easy to prove as nonsense. I will quote again from Amnesty International:

“Vaguely worded laws facilitate the arbitrary administration of justice, and the imprisonment of individuals on political or religious grounds. Fatwa (edict) No. 148, issued by the Council of Senior 'Ulama (religious scholars) in August 1988, prescribes a mandatory death penalty for the loosely defined crimes of "sabotage" and "corruption on earth". Such laws invite arbitrary arrests, which are often carried out with unnecessary use of violence.”

So you see, there is a Council of Senior Ulama that decides who is to live and who is to die in that country.

Why is it then that some Ulama are arrested and persecuted? Easy. It is called infighting and backstabbing. Some Ulama are persecuting other Ulama, no doubt based on perfectly Islamic principles. After all, there has to be one “uber-Ulama” who will Rule Them All.

What is so strange after all about Muslims persecuting and killing other Muslims? I see that every day. As I told you, I have a TV.

 

[Sister Khadija]

What is so strange after all about Muslims persecuting and killing other Muslims? I see that every day. As I told you, I have a TV.

Peace be with you,

If you know the story as to why there is a division betoween Shiites and Sunnis then you would know the answer to this.

There is to be no division and a section broke off after Muhammed passed away.

Just because you see it on TV does not mean you have the brain of those individuals to know what they are doing and why and it doesnt mean thay are being truly Islamic.

Salaam,
sister Khadija

 

[Turin Turambar]

To Hana_Aku,

I just corrected my previous post to make it easier for you to understand. So now you are helping me make my point clear? I told you, if we keep arguing on this forum, we might even fall in love...

 

[*Hana*]

To Hana_Aku,

I just corrected my previous post to make it easier for you to understand. So now you are helping me make my point clear? I told you, if we keep arguing on this forum, we might even fall in love...

:muddlehea no fear of that I can assure you.

Well, as you've been told many times...these are humans, they are far from perfect. Muslims killing Muslims (unless as punishment under the Shariah Law), is not permitted, we were told not to break into sects, but it happens. Still, I will reiterate what we keep telling you....The religion is perfect, it's followers are not.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Do you realize that anything from those days is impossible to verify?

Sheer nonsense. There is no historian who disputes the concrete historical evidence conerning that time, and YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THIS LINK I KEEP GIVING YOU:

MUSLIM HERITAGE

Are the above 'fairly tales'?! No! It is indisputed historical evidence.

But even more. How is it possible that you are preaching as ideal for today a system that only worked TWELVE HUNDRED years ago?

Not 12 hundred years ago, it worked for 12 hundred years!!

It worked until the collapse of the Islamic empire.

Why don’t you choose one of those examples to present as your ideal society?

So I can only talk about Islamic civilization after the ten centuries when the Islamic empire was the most advanced civilization in the world; I can only talk about Islamic civilization after the western colonial powers invaded and ravaged the Muslim countries? Very intelligent, Turin. That's like saying I can only talk about how good my house is after you destroy it!!

Let's play fair - if you want Muslims to bring an example from their worst time, then that means Christians must bring an example from the middle ages and Jews must bring an example from the time of the holocaust.

Even today, there is also no ideal Christian nation in the world either. The western countries whom you would point to as 'christian nations' already went through the seperation of Church and state. They are secular now.

Sunnis and Shias, devout Muslims, are not killing each other as I read. Probably I just thought I had read something like that.

Another instance of absorbign material from the TV without critical analysis. Did the Shias say, "The only reason we are going to blow up this Sunni Mosque is because we have been commanded to in Islam. That is the only reason." No, of course not. Muslims are not robots, they have emotions too. Anger, fear, revenge, sorrow. These incidents have absolutely nothing to do with Islamic teachings, but the political situation in the Middle East.

That is obviously nonsense but today it is easy to prove as nonsense.

It is not nonsense, I gave you three names confirmed by Amnesty International themselves. You think the scholars I mentioned were nobodys? Shaykh Muhaisany and Shaykh Hudhaify were the Imaams at the Holy Ka'ba!

“Vaguely worded laws facilitate the arbitrary administration of justice, and the imprisonment of individuals on political or religious grounds. Fatwa (edict) No. 148, issued by the Council of Senior 'Ulama (religious scholars) in August 1988, prescribes a mandatory death penalty for the loosely defined crimes of "sabotage" and "corruption on earth". Such laws invite arbitrary arrests, which are often carried out with unnecessary use of violence.”

This means that the scholars say that criminals who bring about bloodshed and corruption should be punished. Anything wrong with that? No. Then the Saudi Government takes this and under the pretence of justice and fighting corruption, they commit human rights abuses. Anything wrong with that? Definitely. So who does the blame go on - Saudi Government or Saudi Scholars? The Saudi government, obviously.

So you see, there is a Council of Senior Ulama that decides who is to live and who is to die in that country.

No there isn't. I am amazed at your inability to understand plain english. The scholars simply stated that blooshed and corruption should be punished. It is the Saudi government which decideds how to interpret and implement their statements.

Some Ulama are persecuting other Ulama, no doubt based on perfectly Islamic principles.

Examples? Any? Even one?

After all, there has to be one “uber-Ulama” who will Rule Them All.

Please tell me who this "uber-Alim" is. (sing. Alim, pl. Ulama).

As I told you, I have a TV.

Having a TV is one thing, using it as a substitute for your cerebral cortex is another.

 

[muslimahh]

What does Saudi Arabia have to do with Islam and Christianity..... the thread started with an open challenge to Christians, what a diversion.

Here are some questions I would like answered from my Chrisitians friends here on the forum.

If Jesus was divine or even the 'son of God' why did his companions not bow down to him and worship him in their time? especially since technically, you should be emulating them best you can.

If Jesus was divine or the 'Son of God' why then did he eat, drink, sleep and have bodily processes identical to those as humans?

If Jesus died for a few days and was resurrected, are you saying that he, as a 'divine being' was dead? The man you claim was God resurrected himself then?

Which is more difficult, being created without a father as Jesus was, or both Adam and Eve being created with no mother and father?

Do you not believe in Abraham? What did Abraham do? He broke the idols...why then do you use these same idols to pray?

Why do you ask your priests for forgiveness and speak to them for confession? Do you not think that God can hear you wherever He is? Why not then pray directly to Him and ask for His forgiveness?

If you are worshipping God in church, why then do the church singers face the crowd? Are you praying to God or entertaining yourselves?

I have a bunch more but I will leave it at that.

Islam answers each of these questions....Jesus (peace be upon him) is a prophet of God, he was not killed but was raised alive by God. Idols are not needed to pray to the ONE God, nor are intercessors, we do not ask priests to forgive us, rather we ask God directly. We pray to God directly, no middle men or women. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a man and a prophet, nothing more. God cannot die, nor does He have any sons or daughters. He is free of all needs.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Ansar Al-'Adl,

Remember that it is YOU who said that “Saudi Arabia is not my best example. The Islamic State under the rule of Umar ibn Al-Khattab is.” YOU were referring to an example of 1,200 years ago. You didn’t say “The Islamic Empire that collapsed in 1922 is my best example”

Nobody can pretend than the Ottoman Empire of 1922 was an “ideal Islamic Empire”. If you have any doubt, ask any Armenian whose relatives were killed in the Genocide perpetrated by Muslims troops. Your “ideal Islamic Empire” perhaps existed in the 7th century, although I certainly don’t believe it, but it didn’t exist in 1922 because that is a matter of history. And it certainly doesn’t exist TODAY, and that is what matters for me because I am alive TODAY and I want to live under a good decent regime TODAY.

And why are you doubting that some Ulama are persecuting other Ulama? The Council of Senior Ulama is still there, isn’t it? Or was it replaced by a representative democratic Congress? If it wasn’t, it means that your beloved Shaykh Muhaisany and Shaykh Hudhaify were arrested under laws approved by the Council of Senior Ulama. Laws like that one denounced by Amnesty International. My point stands. Some Ulama are persecuting other Ulama and somehow I am not surprised.

And please don’t mention again that “Muslim heritage” link. I already went there, believe me. According to that website the last Muslim who was able to discover anything died approximately in the year 1,300. Why should we care now? When are you going to begin living in the reality of today and not in your dreams of centuries ago? Perhaps you should stop counting words in your book and buy a TV after all.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Remember that it is YOU who said that “Saudi Arabia is not my best example. The Islamic State under the rule of Umar ibn Al-Khattab is.” YOU were referring to an example of 1,200 years ago.

Your fallacy was that you misinterpreted the fact that my best example was 1,200 years ago, to mean that I had no example for the remaining 1,200 years!

If you have any doubt, ask any Armenian whose relatives were killed in the Genocide perpetrated by Muslims troops.

MYTH!
Was The Ottomon Caliphate Responsible for the “Armenian Genocide”?

This is too easy. Everyone of your allegations has already been refuted.

And why are you doubting that some Ulama are persecuting other Ulama?

U...because you haven't brought any evidence!

The Council of Senior Ulama is still there, isn’t it?

Yes, and members of the council such as Shaykh Ibn Jibreen have also been arrested!!

If it wasn’t, it means that your beloved Shaykh Muhaisany and Shaykh Hudhaify were arrested under laws approved by the Council of Senior Ulama.

These two scholars ARE senior scholars in Saudi! They lead the prayers and deliver the sermons at the two holy mosques.

You say that "[they] were arrested under laws approved by the Council of Senior Ulama". Maybe you could provide evidence? A fatwa? Any? Not even one?

Oh yes, I forgot you don't have evidence. You just have a TV.

Laws like that one denounced by Amnesty International.

Which laws? Did you even read what I wrote about your quote?

Some Ulama are persecuting other Ulama and somehow I am not surprised.

]Can you provide an example of even ONE SAUDI SCHOLAR who was involved in 'persecuting' another? No? Not even one?

According to that website the last Muslim who was able to discover anything died approximately in the year 1,300.

Which happens to be right after the Mongol invasion, the barbaric crusades, and the fall of granada and the burning of all the Muslim books. And anyway, that is not true, take a look at this list taken from Wikipedia:

XVth century
1400s - 1500s - [related] Third wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure. End of Muslim rule in Spain (1492). More than one million volumes of Muslim works on science, arts, philosophy and culture was burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla in Granada. Colonization began in Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Refer to "A Chronology of Muslim History Parts IV, V (e.g., 1455, 1494, 1500, 1510, 1524, and 1538)" (src: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/ .)
1400s [mathematics] Ibn al-Banna and al-Qalasadi used symbols for mathematics in the 15th century "and, although we do not know exactly when their use began, we know that symbols were used at least a century before this." [1]
1400s - [astronomy and mathematics] Ibn Masoud (Ghayyathuddin Jamshid ibn mohamed ibn mas`oud, d. 1424 or 1436.) First to use the decimal point in arithmetic. Wrote on the decimal system. First to introduce the zero (indian mathematicians had used only nine glyphs for numerals). Computed and observed the solar eclipses of 809AH, 810AH and 811AH, after being invited by Ulugh Bek, based in Samarqand to pursue his study of mathematics, astronomy and physics. His works include "The Key of arithmetics"; "Discoveries in mathematics"; "The Decimal point"; "the benefits of the zero". The contents of the Benefits of the Zero are an introduction followed by five essays: On whole number arithmetic; On fractional arithmetic; on astrology; on areas; on finding the unknowns [unknown variables]. He also wrote a "Thesis on the sine and the chord"; "thesis on the circumference" in which he found the ratio of the circumference to the [[[radius]] of a circle to the 16th decimal; "The garden of gardens" or "promenade of the gardens" describing an instrument he devised and used at the Samarqand observatory to compile an ephemeris, and for computing solar and lunar eclipses; The ephemeresis "Zayj Al-Khaqani" which also includes mathematical tables and corrections of the ephemeresis by Al-Tusi; "Thesis on finding the first degree sine"; and more.
1411 [mathematics] Al-Kashi writes Compendium of the Science of Astronomy [5].
1424 [mathematics] Al-Kashi writes Treatise on the Circumference giving a remarkably good approximation to pi in both sexagesimal and decimal forms [5].
1427 [mathematics] Al-Kashi completes The Key to Arithmetic containing work of great depth on decimal fractions. It applies arithmetical and algebraic methods to the solution of various problems, including several geometric ones and is one of the best textbooks in the whole of medieval literature [5].
1437 [mathematics] Ulugh Beg publishes his star catalogue Zij-i Sultani. It contains trigonometric tables correct to eight decimal places based on Ulugh Beg's calculation of the sine of one degree which he calculated correctly to 16 decimal places [5].
[edit]
XVIth century
[edit]
XVIIth century
1600s [flight; rocketry] Turkish scientist Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi took off from Galata tower and flew over the Bosphorus. Lagari Hasan Çelebi, another member of the Celebi family, sent the first manned rocket, using 150 okka (about 300 pounds) of gunpowder as the firing fuel. This is more than two hundred years before similar attempts in Modern Europe and the United States.
1600s [mathematics] The Arabic mathematician Mohammed Baqir Yazdi gave the pair of amicable numbers 9,363,584 and 9,437,056 still many years before Euler's contribution [1].
[edit]
XVIIIth century
1783 - 1799 - [rocketry] Tipu, Sultan of Mysore [1783-1799] in the south of India, was the innovator of the world's first war rocket. Two of his rockets, captured by the British at Srirangapatana, are displayed in the Woolwich Royal Artillery Museum in London. The rocket motor casing was made of steel with multiple nozzles. The rocket, 50mm in diameter and 250mm long, had a range performance of 900 meters to 1.5 km. (src: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/).

So it seems you were wrong...again. Despite the burning of our books, the massacres of our people, Muslim scientists have continued to contribute to science and technology, even in the modern age.