Original sin and disbelief in Adam

[GreyKode]

Though, as a result, they got thrown to Earth to be tested, so now we're tested because of what they did. So in a way Islam says that we inherit the consequences of what they did.

Yours,
M

That's not right, GOD's plan was originally there to test people on this earth.

 

[mattityahu]

That's not right, GOD's plan was originally there to test people on this earth.

Sorry GreyKode & Malaikah for misrepresenting your view - it was wrong of me to apply my understanding of the chain of events in the Christian story to yours.

Peace,
M

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

^That's freaky. So then do these priests disregard original sin too?

There are lots of different views on original sin within the Christian church. See here.

I don't see why not believing in Adam and Eve would automatically negate the possibility of believing in original sin. Many Christians regard the story as an allegorical explanation of humanity's "fallen" or "sinful" state.

In the UK it's rather unusual to find Christians (other than children) who actually take it literally.

Peace

 

[Follower]

"He didn't explain how and why their sin is transeferred to every newborn."

The potential is there for every human is to sin.

Newborns are very self centered- it is ok though because they are cute and they really can't fend for themselves. All they want is to be fed right now, changed right now, held right now.

We have to teach children to share, but that is ok they are still cute at that stage.

As teenagers with the world revolving around them it no longer seems so cute, but it is still that same self centeredness. No longer so cute we can recognize that some of their wants and desires are sins.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

^

That doesn't explain anything.

All human beings - as an infant - want whatever makes life easier. But when they reach the age of puberty their body developes sexual desires and emotional needs. It is at this age when he or she begin to understand what patience really is because of their constant desire to have these needs fulfilled. Having these feelings or needs isn't wrong but they must be channeled the right way. To call it a sin just by it's mere presense in the human body is a misunderstanding about the human psychology. Whether you are unmarried or divorced these desires are going to be present and they only become a sin if you vent these desires outside of marriage.

What I fail to understand is how a new born infant has inherited a sin. This would mean that a new born infant unable to live if left alone for too long will go to hell if it dies at that age? This makes no sense and goes beyond logic.

How can god hold someone who he has just entered into this world as a criminal? No court of law would ever accept an infant as a criminal and a sinner, so how can Almighty God - who created mankind - ever be accused of such a short coming?

 

[mkh4JC]

^

What I fail to understand is how a new born infant has inherited a sin. This would mean that a new born infant unable to live if left alone for too long will go to hell if it dies at that age? This makes no sense and goes beyond logic.

Well, God doesn't send infants to hell if they die. They go to heaven. The same would be true for small children. Why? Because they never had a chance to accept Christ as their savior, and they have yet to reach the point of accountability.

But young children still commit sins though. Consider how you don't have to teach a child how to tell a lie, or to steal, or to disobey their parents. In reality, this world is fallen, and we are all born under the curse of sin. We as human beings need to born again (to receive newnewss of life), born from above, born of the incorruptible spirit of God.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Then that doesn't agree with the concept of original sin at all. Original sin is being born with a sin.

Young children don't necessarily commit sins rather the more correct term is that they make mistakes. A sin is when you know something is wrong and you knowingly do it, and this is not entirely the case for young children because they are in need of guidence. If you are ignorant of something or you do it out of compusion, such as a parent threatening to hit a child and the child lies out of fear or a child being too young to understand fully the concept of right or wrong and not being able to make a judgement between it is not necessarily sinning.

If this is the case then where is the compassion and mercy of God to overlook those who are too young and have not understood? This is hardship on mankind and Allah does not intend any hardship.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

^Fair enough.



But if the sin never happened, what is there to transfer?

It did, just not in the form of Adam and eve taking a fruit from the forbidden tree.

 

[mkh4JC]

Then that doesn't agree with the concept of original sin at all. Original sin is being born with a sin.

Original sin is not being born with a sin rather it had the effect of being born capable of sinning.

Young children don't necessarily commit sins rather the more correct term is that they make mistakes.

Well, this is just not true. For toddlers sure, they just make mistakes, sinning unkowingly. But for someone who is say thirteen years of age, they know the difference between right and wrong, and yet they still commit sin. Why? Because without Christ we as human beings cannot help ourselves. If you are in your sins you are going to sin.

If this is the case then where is the compassion and mercy of God to overlook those who are too young and have not understood? This is hardship on mankind and Allah does not intend any hardship.

And as I said, children are safe as they have yet to have opportunity to accept Christ as their savior. It still doesn't change the fact that they are capable of sinning and do sin, as Adam brought both sin and death into the world.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Then what do you say of Christians, those who are preachers, priests etc that believe they have the "possibility" of going to hell and that it is just up to God....limbo i believe? There's no ifs and or buts like this in Islam. Newborns are completely innocent and they go straight to heaven dying in that stage..

Also u said that once u accept Jesus as your savior, you are responsible. That means you concur with the belief that if u accept Jesus as ur god and savior, then u get a free ticket to heaven? What do u say about this widely accepted belief? Or is your understanding your own?

 

[mkh4JC]

Then what do you say of Christians, those who are preachers, priests etc that believe they have the "possibility" of going to hell and that it is just up to God....limbo i believe?

Well, first of all, this is very Catholic in nature (ie limbo) and I--as a born again Christian--do not put much stock in Catholicism.

There's no ifs and or buts like this in Islam. Newborns are completely innocent and they go straight to heaven dying in that stage..

Yes, and this is the case with Christianity. God is not going to send a newborn that dies to spend eternity in hell. God--in the Christian sense--is love. And that is not loving.

Also u said that once u accept Jesus as your savior, you are responsible. That means you concur with the belief that if u accept Jesus as ur god and savior, then u get a free ticket to heaven? What do u say about this widely accepted belief? Or is your understanding your own?

If you accept Jesus as your savior you are saved from sin, death, and hell. It doesn't mean that you can do whatever you please afterwards because the Bible teaches that those Christians who do sin will fall under the discipline of an almighty God. And I should know, having been suffering for things that I did way back since the Summer of 2002.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Then I think you should go convince your fellow Christians with this view because they seem to think it's the case...a lot of times that's all I see and hear.

And I should know, having been suffering for things that I did way back since the Summer of 2002.

All the best to you

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Fedos, my understanding of the original sin is that Adam and Eve ate from the tree and sinned. They were expelled from heaven and from then on the sin was passed onto everyone until jesus came and died for the sins of mankind.

The point I was trying to make is; If a person is taken to Court of Law for a crime that he commits, and then the judge calls for a second person to come forward who had nothing to do with the crime and then he rules him as guilty, and yet a third person comes in the scene and he gets taken to jail for a crime that he didn't commit in the first place.

Does this make sense to you? Then how can the concept of original make sense?

 

[mkh4JC]

The Bible says that we have not sinned after the similtude of Adam's trangression. We as human beings won't be guilty or judged based on something that Adam did. You would be judged based on the sins that you yourself committed. And the only way to be free from sin is to accept Christ as your savior.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

See this is the problem, so many others will disagree with you on it. And its rare to come across someone with your view.

 

[mkh4JC]

Well, I don't see where disagreement can arise to be honest. Sure, you have people in Emerging Christian movements and others who don't believe that you can understand the Bible (in fact some say that you are arrogant if you believe you understand the Bible). I say, just let the text speak for itself.

Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good of evil, thus disobeying God, their eyes were opened and they understood the difference between good and evil, and all since have been born under the curse of sin as a result.

And there are many with this view, I'm for certain not the only one. Again, this is the orthodox Christian belief, this is what the disciples and all the great forefathers of the faith believed.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

To be honest, I haven't come across people with your view. Doesn't mean they dont exist. Just me personally I havent.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

In all honesty Fedos your the first christian who I've heard say this.

 

[mkh4JC]

Well, on Christian television (Daystar or TBN) you will hear people with my view. People like John Hagee believe this for example. And ministers or preachers over the television when they are calling people to Christ often explain for the benefit of those who don't know why our world is the way it is (ie because of Adam's disobedience).

 

[Zafran]

Well, on Christian television (Daystar or TBN) you will hear people with my view. People like John Hagee believe this for example. And ministers or preachers over the television when they are calling people to Christ often explain for the benefit of those who don't know why our world is the way it is (ie because of Adam's disobedience).

John Hagee...............is that the extremist who believes Muslims are devils and that the Mahdi is the anti christ???