Our Father...

P

Paul Williams

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I'm sure people must have asked u this before but here I go again!

If it is the case (as New Testament scholars believe) that Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as 'Father', why would it be wrong for muslims to follow Jesus' example?
 
Hey bro, is it wrong for us to call em priest 'father' well i duno if he is a prest buh he is ma mates next door nieghbour, and we all like call him 'father john'

:s that's wah everyone calls him ...

Would that be wrong/haraam? for us to do,

jus asking! AsalamuAlaykum!
 
Paul Williams said:
I'm sure people must have asked u this before but here I go again!

If it is the case (as New Testament scholars believe) that Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as 'Father', why would it be wrong for muslims to follow Jesus' example?
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:salamext:


We know that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of Allaah Almighty. And therefore he would never fall into the sin of calling Allaah, father. Because calling Allaah Almighty father may be kufr (disbelief.)



Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

He neither begets nor is born,

Nor is there to Him any equivalent."


[Qur'an: Surah Ikhlaas [Surah 113]​



We call out to Allaah with His beautiful names and attributes. You can view them from here insha'Allaah:

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
 
I am not clear how your quotation from the Quran is relevent. If Jesus adressed God as Father he could have meant it in a metaphorical sense, not in a crude literal way.
 
I asked a Muslim friend of mine today about this question and he replyed as follows...

I am unsure how often Jesus used the term "father" to address God. We can see the increased use of them term as we move on to Matthew, Luke and John. So, if we find a source earlier than Mark, are we likely to encounter less or no abba references within them? I am not sure. It is also unclear how frequently, or the lack of it, the Jews used abba as a way of addressing God. So, it is difficult for me to know how distinctive was Jesus' use of "abba."

Be that as it may, I would say Muslims do not address God as Father just as they do not address Jesus, or any of the prophets and holy men as "sons" of God for the same reason -- while originally these terms did not carry the meanings attached to them later on, they were, eventually, given different meanings and used in different ways commonly and even now many, if not all, Christians use these terms with such meanings in mind. For instance, "son of God" is taken to mean something like divine and even god incarnate, whereas the term Father, when used by Jesus, is taken to mean as something "unique" which affirms the godly status of Jesus. Moreover, people from other faiths, hindus for instance, tend to even take such terms rather literally. So, the potential of misunderstanding is grave and these terms have, in fact, been used in ways to make claims of Jesus which, I think, oppose monothiesm as taught by Islam. Hence they are avoided for such reasons.

That does not mean that one thinks of God as "less" loving by refusing to use the term "Father." Love is the same, we just avoid a term which has been misused in the past, in the present, and which conjures up different literal understandings in other people's minds.

Hope that made sense. Let me know if you disagree with what I said.
 
Hi Paul

I have not seen you for a long time. How are you?

I have the impression that the thought of seeing God as 'Father' (which to me as a Christian seems so natural, and describes a close relationship with God) is to Muslims incomprehensible, or even offensive.

I have the feeling that Muslims take the word very literal - which would then mean that God has 'fathered' us all, in the biological sense (which clearly he hasn't!)

This is a very interesting question, and I am looking forward to reading the replies. :)

Peace
 
Asalaamu 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh brother Paul.



That's the reason i felt that he wouldn't have used that word, plus if it's not mentioned in the Qur'an or Authentic Sunnah, we don't need to use the previous scriptures because this religion is perfected already.

However, you may feel that the previous scriptures can be a source for us if it's not mentioned in the Qur'an or Authentic Sunnah, but the matters which are not mentioned of [within our authentic sources] - we neither reject them, nor do we accept them - but instead we stay neutral.



Therefore if it's not mentioned in the Qur'an or Authentic Sunnah that 'Eesa ibn Maryam (Jesus son of Mary) [peace be upon them] said 'abba' - then we don't need to follow that way insha'Allaah. And Allaah Almighty know's best.
 
Paul Williams said:
I asked a Muslim friend of mine today about this question and he replyed as follows...

I am unsure how often Jesus used the term "father" to address God. We can see the increased use of them term as we move on to Matthew, Luke and John. So, if we find a source earlier than Mark, are we likely to encounter less or no abba references within them? I am not sure. It is also unclear how frequently, or the lack of it, the Jews used abba as a way of addressing God. So, it is difficult for me to know how distinctive was Jesus' use of "abba."

Be that as it may, I would say Muslims do not address God as Father just as they do not address Jesus, or any of the prophets and holy men as "sons" of God for the same reason -- while originally these terms did not carry the meanings attached to them later on, they were, eventually, given different meanings and used in different ways commonly and even now many, if not all, Christians use these terms with such meanings in mind. For instance, "son of God" is taken to mean something like divine and even god incarnate, whereas the term Father, when used by Jesus, is taken to mean as something "unique" which affirms the godly status of Jesus. Moreover, people from other faiths, hindus for instance, tend to even take such terms rather literally. So, the potential of misunderstanding is grave and these terms have, in fact, been used in ways to make claims of Jesus which, I think, oppose monothiesm as taught by Islam. Hence they are avoided for such reasons.

That does not mean that one thinks of God as "less" loving by refusing to use the term "Father." Love is the same, we just avoid a term which has been misused in the past, in the present, and which conjures up different literal understandings in other people's minds.

Hope that made sense. Let me know if you disagree with what I said.
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Actually that make's sense, and it is not good to follow in their footstep where their is a potential to go or "lead other's" astray.

The term father is like to conjure up an image of an old-bearded guy in the sky (A father Figure)

Well, fundementaly it is best to call upon Allah by the name denoted in the Quran.
 
Assalamu aleykum Wa Rhametulah,
Hope All Is Well :)

Paul Williams said:
I'm sure people must have asked u this before but here I go again!

If it is the case (as New Testament scholars believe) that Jesus taught his disciples to pray to God as 'Father', why would it be wrong for muslims to follow Jesus' example?
Click to expand...

Let's say for example if Jesus, peace be upon him, did say 'Our Father', why would it be wrong?

Personally, I understand that, in Islam, we have to follow the Law given to Muhammad, if Moses were here, he peace be upon them both, would have to follow this Law, and with knowledge that some laws before contain permissible stuff that is not prohibited, i.e. Solomon making Statues, then it would not be, for me, logical to take something another Prophet, peace be upon him, said, for it may have been ok in his law but not ours.

Also, we have many names from which we can call upon G-d, given in the Qu'ran and Sunnah, those are the names which according to our law are allowed.

From my humble view, it would be unnecesarry to call upon G-d with a name/attribute, that is not prescribed in our Law, while knowing that things allowed or prohibited to those before us may be prohibited or allowed to us.

Assalamu Aleykum :)
 
i call God God, but in christianity it isn't wrong to call him father. he is our father! whether he was human or not, he created us right? i think so. :)

and i think muslims can call him father if you guys want. i don't see anywhere in the qu'ran where it rejects that.
 
Also, in response to glo, Muslims are not against the term "Father" because they believe that God is not close to us. Simply, since the term is open to abuse and misunderstandings, it is not used. You will not find any Islamic source speaking against referring to God as "Father" because God is far removed from us and is not loving etc. Rather, as the Quran says, God is even closer to us than our jugular veins.

It is not that Muslims take the word literally; the term has been taken literally by some, it has led to misunderstandings. Taken in such ways, it becomes offensive. So, to avoid any such problems, it is simply not used any more, though it may have been appropriate to use it in a different time and among a different people.

Also, while I am uncertain about the frequency of "abba" used by both Jesus and the Jews of the first century, I think it is quite likely that Jesus did use the term "abba" and that in at least one prayer, he taught some of his immediate followers to do the same. It is just the range and frequency of usuage which is uncertain to me. Now, does it contradict any of the teachings of Islam because Jesus addressed God as abba? I would argue no. The term, as you correctly pointed out, is metaphorical and was simply a manner of calling upon God with affection. This love and effection for God - and of God for us - is not denied by Islam. The person using the term was not thought to be God, the second person of the trinity, or divine in any sense. In the first century it appears that one of the ways to address God was with the term abba. Others besides Jesus also did that, such as Honi. No one thought that Honi was comitting blasphemy. As mentioned before, eventually the term came to be misused - as the term "son" - and the potential to abuse/misuse remains high.

I still on occasion encounter Christians who argue that Jesus is God/divine because God was his father and because he is the son of God. I am sure you can find tons of such arguments online if you do a search online. Of course, as almost any scholar would point out, these terms were not understood in such ways in first century Palestine and so their meanings eventually evolved into something very different from the original meaning.
 
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salaam

in real english language a father needs a wife, so i.e a wife, so accordin that logic, the "christian" god has a wife :p :D

and that is like puttin a image to god, by callin him father, when god is like unimaginable, like you cant imagine how he would be, he is so great :D

Allah (swt) says in surah Maryam v 88 - 93

"They say, the Most Affectionate has taken a son'.

No doubt, you brought a thing of heavy limit. (Most evil)

It is near that the heavens may burst by it and the earth may crack down and the mountains fell down collapsed.
That because they ascribed a son to the- Most Affectionate."

so when the christians say that, Allah (swt) has taken a son, it says the heavens wana burst open and the earth wans 2 split due to that statement, so ascribing thins to Allah (swt) is a bad statement :p as he is only one, nothin is with him and he dont need anythin, he can do woteva he wants by :D
 
Christians of course don't believe God has a wife.

I'm very happy with some of the answers I've got to my question. But I think it is reasonably certain, historically, that Jesus at least on some occasions addressed God as 'Father' and taught his disciples to do likewise. So it must follow that Muslims cannot reject absolutely this term for all people everywhere.

However, I understand now why would it be wrong for Muslims to follow Jesus' example. But I don't think we can simply reject Jesus' example as wrong.
 
but thats where the difference lies, because a christian wouldnt accept the muslim way and a muslim wouldnt accept a christian way init,

lemme ask you a Q, why dont christians follow the way of muslims and not associate anything with god:D
 
chacha_jalebi said:
but thats where the difference lies, because a christian wouldnt accept the muslim way and a muslim wouldnt accept a christian way init,

lemme ask you a Q, why dont christians follow the way of muslims and not associate anything with god:D
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Good question. Some Christians do end up following the Prophet (PBUH) - some did during his life time and some still revert today (like I did). But most Christians I know understand nothing of the beauty of his life nor the miracle of the Qur'an.
 
chacha_jalebi said:
lemme ask you a Q, why dont christians follow the way of muslims and not associate anything with god:D
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oh..that's simple. Christians (as we see it) don't associate anything with God. Saying that Jesus is God, when you believe it, is like saying "God is God". no association.
 
duskiness said:
oh..that's simple. Christians (as we see it) don't associate anything with God. Saying that Jesus is God, when you believe it, is like saying "God is God". no association.
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But your gospels clearly suggest he was NOT God. See my next post below...
 
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duskiness said:
oh..that's simple. Christians (as we see it) don't associate anything with God. Saying that Jesus is God, when you believe it, is like saying "God is God". no association.
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Sorry - I don't think I agree.

Exactly who was Jesus and why is a man called Paul of Tarsus so important to today’s Christians?

Christians, especially evangelicals, love to ask people ‘are you saved?’ or ’do you have eternal life?’ I agree with these Christians that this question is important. So let us read what Jesus’ himself taught about this question in the Bible:

Mark, chapter 10 verses 17-27

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

Incidentally, it is instructive to compare how Matthew in his later gospel written about 85AD alters Jesus’ words (probably because they were an embarrassment to him). In Matthew’s gospel we read:

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

See how the words have been changed?

I think this is a fascinating conversation for a number of reasons. In reply to the man’s question ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life’ Jesus as a good Jew refers him to the Ten Commandments that were revealed to Moses. Sensing that the man’s great riches were an obstacle to receiving eternal life in the age to come he urged him to give his wealth to the poor.

Have you ever heard a Christian say to a non-Christian that the way to receive eternal life is by obeying the commandments of God and giving your wealth to the poor? I doubt it!

But why is this? I think part of the answer is to be found in the teaching of a man from 1st century Tarsus (in what is called Turkey today). He had never met Jesus. But he claimed to speak for him. His name was Paul, and most of the New Testament is written by him.

Paul’s answer to the same question – what must I do to be saved/inherit eternal life, is found in his letter to the Romans:

If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Clearly Paul has put Jesus at the centre of his gospel, unlike Jesus who put God and his will first.

And what does Paul say about the Law that Jesus said should be followed in order to receive eternal life?

Paul’s view of the matter can be found in his letter to the Galatians:

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

You might be forgiven for thinking Jesus and Paul are talking about two completely different religions! In fact that is exactly what many scholars think too! If you take the trouble to read Marks gospel you will quickly realize that Jesus preached the importance of turning from sin and accepting the rule of God (‘ Kingdom of God ’) in our lives. He referred to himself as the Son of Man. But Paul preached about Jesus as if he were a God to be prayed to and worshiped. Jesus though was a messenger of God, a humble man. Remember the man in the gospel story who ran up to Jesus and fell on his knees before him: "Good teacher," he exclaimed, but Jesus was quick to put him straight - "Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone.” He didn’t say ‘You’re absolutely right; I am good, so worship me!’

It is sadly the case that the church has spent the last 2000 years following the innovations of Paul and not the original teaching of Jesus. The prophet Muhammad was sent to remind the world of the true teachings of Jesus (PBUT) and purify Christianity from its corruptions.
 
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