Our Father...

[Skillganon]

Come on let's not go off-topic.

We got plenty of thread covering that subject, and let's not make another one out of this one.

 

[Grace Seeker]

:salamext:


We know that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a messenger of Allaah Almighty. And therefore he would never fall into the sin of calling Allaah, father. Because calling Allaah Almighty father may be kufr (disbelief.)

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,

Allah , the Eternal Refuge.

He neither begets nor is born,

Nor is there to Him any equivalent."


[Qur'an: Surah Ikhlaas [Surah 113]​

We call out to Allaah with His beautiful names and attributes. You can view them from here insha'Allaah:

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

I would like to share a story that I believe is on topic with the question at the beginning of this thread?

A few years ago I had an exchange student for a daughter. She is a Muslim and I am Christian. In the course of a year we learned a great deal from each other, attended each other's worship, kept Ramadan together, and many other things.

One day she comes up to me and says: "Dad, when you pray, who come you
call God 'Father'?"

I asked her, "How come you call me 'Dad'?"

I was not her biological father. I did not begat her, nor was she born to my wife, whom she called 'Mom'. The reason she used those terms had nothing to do with biology. It was because it expressed the closeness and intimacy that was (and still is) the essence of our relationship with one another. I believe that this, not because that Jesus was supposedly "begotten", is the primary reason that Jesus referred to God as Father, and for the same reason taught his disciples to do likewise. God wants to be in a close intimate relationship with us as if we are all family. Of course God is spirit and neither male nor female. The use of the term "Father" is probably because of the patriarchal nature of the culture in which Jesus lived.

 

[north_malaysian]

When Malaysian Muslims were singing Black Eyed Peas' "Where is the Love" song, with lyrics.... "Father, Father, Father, Father ... send us guidance from above..." some religious scholars ruled out that it's amounted to "shirk"

 

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah
Peace be upon ya and mercy from G-d Almighty

Hope all is well and I am pleased that you have been satisfied,

But I think it is reasonably certain, historically, that Jesus at least on some occasions addressed God as 'Father' and taught his disciples to do likewise. So it must follow that Muslims cannot reject absolutely this term for all people everywhere.

If possible, and if you have time, if you don't please do not feel obligated to, but could you explain to me how you feel it is historically, 'reasonably certain' . I didn't think it was or is, but anyhow, if you do get time, even if it takes you a long while to respond inshaAllah send me a pm or something so I know Thank you.

However, I understand now why would it be wrong for Muslims to follow Jesus' example. But I don't think we can simply reject Jesus' example as wrong.

I agree with you, that we as Muslims should not say, that Jesus was wrong in anything he said of his message and his example, authobillah, he was/is one of those close to Allah in this world and the hereafter, Alhamdulilah

Assalamu aleykum again, thank you for staring such a nice topic,

Your brother Eesa.

 

[Grace Seeker]

oh..that's simple. Christians (as we see it) don't associate anything with God. Saying that Jesus is God, when you believe it, is like saying "God is God". no association.

Sorry, this is off-topic.

Natalia, thank you for sending me a PM to welcome me. I wrote you a response, but unfortunately I can not send it to you until I reach 50 posts. imsad

 

[Paul Williams]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah
Peace be upon ya and mercy from G-d Almighty

Hope all is well and I am pleased that you have been satisfied,



If possible, and if you have time, if you don't please do not feel obligated to, but could you explain to me how you feel it is historically, 'reasonably certain' . I didn't think it was or is, but anyhow, if you do get time, even if it takes you a long while to respond inshaAllah send me a pm or something so I know Thank you.



I agree with you, that we as Muslims should not say, that Jesus was wrong in anything he said of his message and his example, authobillah, he was/is one of those close to Allah in this world and the hereafter, Alhamdulilah

Assalamu aleykum again, thank you for staring such a nice topic,

Your brother Eesa.

Salam Eesa

Before I answer your interesting question, would you mind telling me why you think Jesus did not address God as 'Abba' ?

 

[Umar001]

Salam Eesa

Before I answer your interesting question, would you mind telling me why you think Jesus did not address God as 'Abba' ?

Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah Brother Paul,

I hold no view as to whether he did or didn't, I hold the view that I have not seen any evidence that he called Him father, and I have no evidence that Jesus did not call Him father, but the quran, which claims that jesus never said he was the son, I think or at least that he never said he was G-d.

I hope that makes sense lol

 

[Grace Seeker]

Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah Brother Paul,

I hold no view as to whether he did or didn't, I hold the view that I have not seen any evidence that he called Him father, and I have no evidence that Jesus did not call Him father, but the quran, which claims that jesus never said he was the son, I think or at least that he never said he was G-d.

I hope that makes sense lol

Of course there are some that would dispute as evidence of corruption anything in the Bible that might be understood as being different from what is found in the Qur'an. On the other hand, there would also be some that would cite those differences as evidence of error in the Qur'an. I'll not get into that dispute, but I do want to provide the quote you were seeking:

Mark 14:36 (NIV)
"Abba, Father," he [Jesus] said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

 

[Umar001]

Thank you kindly for the quote Grace Seeker,

And I think we have a whole handful of threads with regards to whether the Bible has been changed or not, though it rather sometimes turns into an arena where people just try to prove themselves right instaed of providing their evidence and trying to see the opposing views and their understading.

As Eric says:

In the spirit of better inter-faith dialogue

Eesa.

 

[Paul Williams]

Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah Brother Paul,

I hold no view as to whether he did or didn't, I hold the view that I have not seen any evidence that he called Him father, and I have no evidence that Jesus did not call Him father, but the quran, which claims that jesus never said he was the son, I think or at least that he never said he was G-d.

I hope that makes sense lol

The evidence that he did address God as 'Abba' is found in a number of first century writings some of which are found in the Christian New Testament. God is also referred to as 'father' in a number of places in the Old Testament too, so the term would have been familiar to Jesus and his contemporaries.

The term 'son of God' in the first century Jewish context has NO connotations of divinity whatsoever - and if Jesus was called that, it would have been understood as synonymous with the word 'messiah'. Only much later with the apostle Paul did 'son of God' mean a divine being. Of course I agree with you that Jesus never claimed to be God.

Does this answer your questions?

 

[Grace Seeker]

As we now have both a Christian and a Muslim giving the same testimony regarding Jesus' use of the term "abba", I would think that would settle any question on this matter.

 

[Umar001]

The evidence that he did address God as 'Abba' is found in a number of first century writings some of which are found in the Christian New Testament. God is also referred to as 'father' in a number of places in the Old Testament too, so the term would have been familiar to Jesus and his contemporaries.

The term 'son of God' in the first century Jewish context has NO connotations of divinity whatsoever - and if Jesus was called that, it would have been understood as synonymous with the word 'messiah'. Only much later with the apostle Paul did 'son of God' mean a divine being. Of course I agree with you that Jesus never claimed to be God.

Does this answer your questions?

Assalamu Aleykum,

Thank you for your reply,

I sure see why you believe that, do I believe that is enough evidence, erm, I don't know its something I have to look into it myself but you sure have opened up an avenue of thinking whichI had before, but havent re-visted in a while.

For learning sake, you said "The evidence that he did address God as 'Abba' is found in a number of first century writings some of which are found in the Christian New Testament."

Where are the others?

And do you not think that it is possible that stil they could be stuff that is made up?

Just wondering, curious thats all.

Thanks for your time though Brother.

Eesa.

 

[Paul Williams]

Assalamu Aleykum,

Thank you for your reply,

I sure see why you believe that, do I believe that is enough evidence, erm, I don't know its something I have to look into it myself but you sure have opened up an avenue of thinking whichI had before, but havent re-visted in a while.

For learning sake, you said "The evidence that he did address God as 'Abba' is found in a number of first century writings some of which are found in the Christian New Testament."

Where are the others?

And do you not think that it is possible that stil they could be stuff that is made up?

Just wondering, curious thats all.

Thanks for your time though Brother.

Eesa.

Another example from outside the New Testament is the Gospel of Thomas -which you can read in translation here:

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

Of course one can say of much history from the ancient world that it was all just made up. If you insist on being a sceptic then you are free to doubt. But to my knowledge, perfectly reputable historians of the first century have no qualms in believing that Jesus addressed God as Abba. I think the onus is on you to come up with some evidence or an argument that suggests otherwise. Do you have such evidence or such an argument?

Why is this an issue for you?

 

[Umar001]

I think the onus is on you to come up with some evidence or an argument that suggests otherwise. Do you have such evidence or such an argument?

Why is this an issue for you?

Thank you so much for the link, erm I don't have an opposing arguement.


It aint so much an issue as in that I wanna prove the opposite of what your saying, I'm just a questionative person, I like to know things, that is why I asked if it was possible that so and so mighth ave happend, just for the reason that reading your answer would provide me a better understanding of the view you hold.

Again, I don't particularly agree or disagree, I think I'm just attracted at any knowledge which talks about the Bible or Jesus or such, just a personal sense of curiousity.

 

[Paul Williams]

Thank you so much for the link, erm I don't have an opposing arguement.


It aint so much an issue as in that I wanna prove the opposite of what your saying, I'm just a questionative person, I like to know things, that is why I asked if it was possible that so and so mighth ave happend, just for the reason that reading your answer would provide me a better understanding of the view you hold.

Again, I don't particularly agree or disagree, I think I'm just attracted at any knowledge which talks about the Bible or Jesus or such, just a personal sense of curiousity.

Well, I think its really good you are questioning things. :clever:

 

[Umar001]

Well, I think its really good you are questioning things. :clever:

Yea well sometimes, specially online, I think people misunderstand me and think that I'm just being arguementative, I get the feeling it happens alot.

May Allah reward you for your kindness and patience with me Brother.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Another example from outside the New
Of course one can say of much history from the ancient world that it was all just made up. If you insist on being a sceptic then you are free to doubt. But to my knowledge, perfectly reputable historians of the first century have no qualms in believing that Jesus addressed God as Abba. I think the onus is on you to come up with some evidence or an argument that suggests otherwise. Do you have such evidence or such an argument?

A very good observation. It is easy to question history, all one has to do is be willing to doubt. Thus it is that today conspiracy theories thrive with regards to all sorts of recent events because we doubt the "official" or the reported version.

Apply that sort of thinking to anciet documents like the Bible and pretty soon one has the Bible re-written to create a Jesus that never existed. Now I don't have any trouble accepting that people wrote their stories about Jesus from their own particular bias, but finding evidence of that bias only tells us that the people really did believe these things. Why did they believe them? If we are talking about the earliest (and here now I mean first generation believers) it is most probable that it is because they themselves were witness to those events and experienced them first-hand, or received the information from other sources credible to them who themselves had.

Apply that sort of thinking to the Qur'an and you have basically denied the very heart of Islam.


Oh, and Eesa, I don't mean not to ask questions, for asking questions is how we learn. But there is a difference from being inquisitive and being a skeptic.

 

[Paul Williams]

Apply that sort of thinking to the Qur'an and you have basically denied the very heart of Islam.

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

 

[Umar001]

A very good observation. It is easy to question history, all one has to do is be willing to doubt. Thus it is that today conspiracy theories thrive with regards to all sorts of recent events because we doubt the "official" or the reported version.

Apply that sort of thinking to anciet documents like the Bible and pretty soon one has the Bible re-written to create a Jesus that never existed. Now I don't have any trouble accepting that people wrote their stories about Jesus from their own particular bias, but finding evidence of that bias only tells us that the people really did believe these things. Why did they believe them? If we are talking about the earliest (and here now I mean first generation believers) it is most probable that it is because they themselves were witness to those events and experienced them first-hand, or received the information from other sources credible to them who themselves had.

Apply that sort of thinking to the Qur'an and you have basically denied the very heart of Islam.

I think theres a difference between, reasonable logical questioning or logical doubt, than just being a person who says 'prove it, prove it' and for proof they want to be shown for example, Matthew writing down the scripture with his own hand.

Oh, and Eesa, I don't mean not to ask questions, for asking questions is how we learn. But there is a difference from being inquisitive and being a skeptic.

I totally agree, and all I've been is inquisitive, I may have asked questions that seem to come from a person who might be a skeptive, but those question do not neccesarily reflect my belief on the matter.

 

[Abu Ibraheem]

Hey Paul, on this note did you know that Allah loves His creation more than a mother loves her child? Did you know that Allah has sent only 1 mercy from His 99 Mercies in which a mothe loves her child and protects her child? Did you know that nobody can love a child more than its mother... except Allah?
The reason as to why the term father was used was to denote the relationship between God and man, Why father? this is due to grammar, anything without gender is classed as masculine (when in reality its not) if it has no sign of feminine gender. In Arabic a car is feminine whilst a book is masculine. If the word for God happened to be feminine, the Bible would have called God mother! but we all know God doesnt have gender. Its simply for grammar reasons. The reason God now objects to be called a father because there are certain sects that have seperated from Islam (the true relgion since the word beand took Jesus as a literal son.
The Son and Father (God) relationship was metaphorical.