Pakistani forces battle militants

[Thinker]

Fatima, i think it's probably because the Pakistani government is widely percieved as corrupt and compliant to western interests. It is the legacy of the Musharraf era and preceded the Zardari government.

It’s the legacy of the Pakistani authorities that allowed the spread of the madrassas and the security services who created and backed the Taliban that took over Afghanistan.

 

[Thinker]

doorster, why dont you give us some evidences why you feel i am wrong in what i said rather than just making insulting comments towards members which constantly gets you into trouble on here?

Here's some more reasons . . .

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/press/releases/2008-11-27.html

Despite the drop in opium cultivation, production and prices, the Taliban and other anti-government forces are making massive amounts of money from the drug business. . . . .

He also pointed to the danger of opium stocks held by the Taliban. "For a number of years, Afghan opium production has exceeded world demand.

 

[nocturnal]

I agree that Pakistani bureaucracy has played a big part in facilitating the growth of these extremee organisations. But, it is also important to not that these Madrassas proliferated greatly under Musharraf. He needed to let them thrive to the point where they posed a serious threat to national security and stability as in the case of the Red Mosque seige, and then dramatically send in the military to convey the image that he is a indispensable element in the war on terror.

The Taliban were primarily conceived by the US (CIA) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, who solicited to the Pakistani Intelligence Agencies' help in setting them up, using their knowledge of the local region, culture and traditions.

I also agree with Dawaud from a religious point of view. The Pakistani military does deserve contempt for its actions in the post 9/11 years. They have complied in a total servility with the edicts of its leadership no matter how abominable. The Red Mosque case was a classic example where they should have laid down their arms if not mutinied against the political NOT military leadership.

 

[doorster]

before i respond to some of your other points can i ask have you heard of a scholar named ibn taymiyyah?

walaikum

have you heard of a scholar named ibn taymiyyah?

was he some one who preached illiteracy?practised bestiality?sodomy?broke treaties? and murdered men of his neighbourhood so that he could steal their properties and females to sell-on?

go spend sometime with these so-called taliban -- who are actually hounds from hell -- before preaching false crap about them

 

[Zafran]

walaium, spawn of a lying misguider
was he some one who preached illiteracy?practised bestiality?sodomy? and murdered men of his neighbourhood so that he can steal their properties and females to sell-on?

go spend sometime with these so-called taliban -- who are actually hounds from hell -- before preaching false crap about them

salaam

Ibn taymiyyah(ra) is one of the best Hanbali scholars- you also have to take in account when he was around - when the Mongols were ravaging muslim lands

I say there is a time for Ibn taymiyyah(ra) and then theres a time for Al Ghazzali(ra).

and the Taliban dont have anything to do with him IMO - they are just tribal people who are mixing there culture with religion.

peace

 

[doorster]

so the reality is this, we dont have any of the main conditions to make an Islamic state, so it is all doomed to failure, we Muslims need to stop going by emotions and start being realistic and working hard, the first best place to start is EDUCATIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN, we Muslims today are nothing, nobodies, once we become smart in our deen and general affairs then we can start laying down the foundations.

jazaka Allah khair wa janat e firdous!!
without Islamic education and a social security system (zakat) being in place, imposing only the punitive side of Shariah on a mostly semi-literate and semi-Hindu population is VERY wrong.
wa salam alaikum

so the reality is this, we dont have any of the main conditions to make an Islamic state, so it is all doomed to failure, we Muslims need to stop going by emotions and start being realistic and working hard, the first best place to start is EDUCATION, we Muslims today are nothing, nobodies, once we become smart in our deen and general affairs then we can start laying down the foundations

Bravo! first step to eliminate ignorance is to admit that it exists!!

salaam

Ibn taymiyyah(ra) is one of the best Hanbali scholars- you also have to take in account when he was around - when the Mongols were ravaging Muslim lands

I say there is a time for Ibn taymiyyah(ra) and then theres a time for Al Ghazzali(ra).

and the Taliban don't have anything to do with him IMO - they are just tribal people who are mixing there culture with religion.

peace

wa salam alaikum wa jazakallah khair!

 

[Dawud_uk]

walaikum
was he some one who preached illiteracy?practised bestiality?sodomy?broke treaties? and murdered men of his neighbourhood so that he could steal their properties and females to sell-on?

go spend sometime with these so-called taliban -- who are actually hounds from hell -- before preaching false crap about them

i see you will just respond with wa alaykum when i give you salaams which i think is a little dig at me, but heay i'm not biting so tough luck on that.

 

[Dawud_uk]

salaam

Ibn taymiyyah(ra) is one of the best Hanbali scholars- you also have to take in account when he was around - when the Mongols were ravaging muslim lands

I say there is a time for Ibn taymiyyah(ra) and then theres a time for Al Ghazzali(ra).

and the Taliban dont have anything to do with him IMO - they are just tribal people who are mixing there culture with religion.

peace

zafran,

i dont agree with everything the taliban do, but i dont believe you are correct when you say they are mixing islam with culture, could you provide some proofs for this claim otherwise i am affraid it must be labelled as slander?

they are not perfect, but like the mujahideen at the time of ibn taymiyyah they are fighting a force, claiming islam but who are ruling by other than Allah has revealled, they are attempting to implement islam, which is more than can be said for those who oppose them.

so RE ibn taymiyyah, what was his ruling regarding the tartar rulers of baghdad who claimed islam but ruled by other than Allah has revealled?

what was his ruling on those who sided with them, taking up arms for them or working for them or providing supporting fataawah for them?

 

[Zafran]

zafran,

i dont agree with everything the taliban do, but i dont believe you are correct when you say they are mixing islam with culture, could you provide some proofs for this claim otherwise i am affraid it must be labelled as slander?

they are not perfect, but like the mujahideen at the time of ibn taymiyyah they are fighting a force, claiming islam but who are ruling by other than Allah has revealled, they are attempting to implement islam, which is more than can be said for those who oppose them.

so RE ibn taymiyyah, what was his ruling regarding the tartar rulers of baghdad who claimed islam but ruled by other than Allah has revealled?

what was his ruling on those who sided with them, taking up arms for them or working for them or providing supporting fataawah for them?

If you actually been in peshwar, swat you wouldnt realy need any proof - they are tribal people - they have there tribal code. Now they are trying to fuse Sharia - thats all good in there tribal region but it realilty sharia is far deeper then a bunch of Vigilantes trying implement a complex system like sharia.

Lets not forget about the drug trade. There was an area called Lakh Gharr - which was lawless area before as the police were scared to go in - controlled mostly by Warlords as the person with us said - he had his stories about them - not far off of what Doorster said.

If you agree with them why dont you help the out??

ibn taymiyyah(ra) had his reasons calling people kaffir - but hes only one scholar from the hanbali school of thought. Islam is a wide road.

I'm not supporting the Pakistani government as everyone knows its one of the most corrupt governments on earth - but niether i'm going to support the pushtun tribes men as i've been in swat before.

peace.

 

[Joe98]

taliban....but i dont believe you are correct when you say they are mixing islam with culture, could you provide some proofs for this claim otherwise i am affraid it must be labelled as slander?

I too am keen to see evidence. The West learns about islam and Sharia law by watching the exploits of the Taliban, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

...regarding the tartar rulers of baghdad who claimed islam but ruled by other than Allah has revealled?

And the West learnt a lot about Islam from the tarter rulers.

Instead of saying that the West lies about Islam, we west has learnt about Islam from those mentioned above. All claiming to be practising Islam correctly.

-

 

[Zafran]

I too am keen to see evidence. The West learns about islam and Sharia law by watching the exploits of the Taliban, Saudi Arabia and Iran.




And the West learnt a lot about Islam from the tarter rulers.

Instead of saying that the West lies about Islam, we west has learnt about Islam from those mentioned above. All claiming to be practising Islam correctly.

-

salaam

you have taken his post out of context - that post was refering to something else - nothing to do with the west.

 

[nocturnal]

If you actually been in peshwar, swat you wouldnt realy need any proof - they are tribal people - they have there tribal code. Now they are trying to fuse Sharia - thats all good in there tribal region but it realilty sharia is far deeper then a bunch of Vigilantes trying implement a complex system like sharia.

Lets not forget about the drug trade. There was an area called Lakh Gharr - which was lawless area before as the police were scared to go in - controlled mostly by Warlords as the person with us said - he had his stories about them - not far off of what Doorster said.

If you agree with them why dont you help the out??

ibn taymiyyah(ra) had his reasons calling people kaffir - but hes only one scholar from the hanbali school of thought. Islam is a wide road.

I'm not supporting the Pakistani government as everyone knows its one of the most corrupt governments on earth - but niether i'm going to support the pushtun tribes men as i've been in swat before.

peace.

I think now days, whenever anyone cites the "Pakistani Taliban", there's immedieately this wave of terror that is aroused with it, which is wrong. We are not talking about a unified movement here where everyone conforms to one extremist doctrine, it is a movement that is coalesced around the concept of entrenching Islamic law in the tribal areas. Thats what its restricted to.

The exact workings of it and how it will be enacted isn't clear yet, but when you have isolated hordes of uneducated people marauding towards the federal capital, you have to understand that they aren't those who ratified an agreement with the government. Rather than support this inchoate initiative by formulating new infrastructure and development projects, we (the international community) are focusing inordinately on the Islamists and their apparently impending take over. I think thats a bit short-sighted and only designed to evoke hysteria and mass panic therefore facilitating further foreign intervention.