Parallel universes ...

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barney said:
Yipes, this is an old thread!
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But still a fun one!! :D



glo said:
Thanks, guys ... although I feel more confused than ever now ... :D

Let us assume that there are parallel universes ... does the theory say that we all live in each of those universes? I.e. there would be a glo1, glo2, glo3 ... glo infinite???
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In simplest terms, the concept of there being parallel universes must first admit to the possibility of there being mutliple other universes. In most of the theories that allow for this, each other universe is completely independent of any other universe, even the idea that one could actually observe the other universes is problematic, that that would make them have some point of correspondence with each other.

With an infinite variety of optional alternatives, it would seem logical that there are both universes with glo1, glo2, and glo3, and universes with anti-glo, and many more universes in which glo had never been conceived, and still more universes in which the whole idea of a glo would be itself inconceivable.

It is primarily the science fiction models that have your host of glo1, glo2 and glo3 possibilities, but in an infinite number of universe possibilities they would also remain not only possible, but assumed to in fact exist as well as every other option to the infinite degree. But in none of them would any of the glos that exist there be our glo. You are unique not just to this world, but to all time and all space, and even all universes. Another universe may have an exact replica of you, even down to all the events and thoughts of your life, but it would still not be you. From a religious point of view, only God, who exists bounded in every way, could actually exists in more than one universe.
 
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Watch Season 6 of Lost.

Purely for research purposes, of course.

Obviously.
 
Dagless said:
If it were true wouldn't this also negate free will? and therefore negate any reason for punishment?
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Not really. But just to make clear my opinion doesn't agree with the interpretation of parallel universe.
 
Chuck said:
Not really. But just to make clear my opinion doesn't agree with the interpretation of parallel universe.
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Well if you have 2 options (one right, one wrong) and you choose the right one, then the wrong one is played out too - same goes for the other way around. If you've done both how can you be judged?
What is your interpretation of parallel universes?
 
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Dagless said:
Well if you have 2 options (one right one wrong) and you choose the right one, then the wrong one is played out too - same goes for the other way around. If you've done both how can you be judged.
What is your interpretation of parallel universes?
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I don't believe there are parallel universes with different choices. As for the free will it doesn't negate the freewill, freewill it is still played out for the individual in his universe based on the choice individual takes.
 
Chuck said:
I don't believe there are parallel universes with different choices. As for the free will it doesn't negate the freewill, freewill it is still played out for the individual in his universe based on the choice individual takes.
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The second individual would be created along with the choice and is still you. He is not a separate entity which existed before the point you made the choice.
 
Chuck said:
I don't believe there are parallel universes with different choices. As for the free will it doesn't negate the freewill, freewill it is still played out for the individual in his universe based on the choice individual takes.
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Yes and no.

I can see why it would appear that freewill is played out. However, just like any conditioned being thinks they are making a free choice, but the reality is the conditiioning governs the range of choices even considered. If we accept the idea of there being an infinite number of universes, then all of the options are played out. There is determinishm governing the whole of reality in that every option must be accounted for. Thus what appears to be free choice is governed by the reality which says that such and such must happen in some universe, and which universe you live in is just the random draw of chance out of one of the infinite possibilities.
 
Dagless said:
The second individual would be created along with the choice and is still you. He is not a separate entity which existed before the point you made the choice.
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Grace Seeker said:
Yes and no.

I can see why it would appear that freewill is played out. However, just like any conditioned being thinks they are making a free choice, but the reality is the conditiioning governs the range of choices even considered. If we accept the idea of there being an infinite number of universes, then all of the options are played out. There is determinishm governing the whole of reality in that every option must be accounted for. Thus what appears to be free choice is governed by the reality which says that such and such must happen in some universe, and which universe you live in is just the random draw of chance out of one of the infinite possibilities.
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Above doesn't negate the free choice. Individual is still making a choice in each off shoot of parallel universe. In this case, off shoot of parallel universe is out come of a choice made, and having no choice would mean no off shoot of a parallel universe. Therefore, both appears to be contradictory together -- off shoot parallel universe from a choice made and no free choice.
 
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"Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen" [Surah Fatiah 1:2]

I have underlined the last word.

"[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds "

If there are more universes/worlds, then they were all made by God.
 
Chuck said:
Above doesn't negate the free choice. Individual is still making a choice in each off shoot of parallel universe. In this case, off shoot of parallel universe is out come of a choice made, and having no choice would mean no off shoot of a parallel universe. Therefore, both appears to be contradictory together -- off shoot parallel universe from a choice made and no free choice.
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If one is free to make a choice, then one is also free to not make a given choice. This would mean that not all options would be realized. Thus, to accept the possibility of free will means that there are a limited, finite number of universes.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Thus, to accept the possibility of free will means that there are a limited, finite number of universes.
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Actually, it looks the opposite to me, free will would mean having infinite number of parallel universes as free will makes the choice near infinite if not absolute infinite. Limited choices would mean limited number of parallel universes.
 
Chuck said:
Actually, it looks the opposite to me, free will would mean having infinite number of parallel universes as free will makes the choice near infinite if not absolute infinite. Limited choices would mean limited number of parallel universes.
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Did you follow my reasoning? If one has to exercise all of those choices, then one has lost the freedom to not choose, which ought to be an aspect of free will as well.

Imagine a choice with just two possible outcomes. In a truly free universe, you will choose either option A or option B. But in a multiverse, in one univese option A is chosen, and in the other option B is chosen. You may feel like you freely choose between A and B, but the reality is that both must be chosen. So, your freedom to choose did not exist, it was determined simply by whether you happened to randomly exist in universe A or universe B.

True, there are more than A and B choices, and there are a whole series that seem to run on infinitely, but the process remains the same. If all the options have to be fulfill, then what you choose is determined not by choice, but by which universe you happen to be in. Choice would be to say that we can have some options unfulfilled. And that can only happen when there are finite number of universes.
 
Muezzin said:
Schroedinger and his flippin' free-will-threatening cat...
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Exactly!! As long as there is only one universe, we don't know whether the cat will be alive or dead until we investigate. But we can be certain it will be one and not both. The only way that it could be both would be to allow for parallel universes. So, the possibility of infinite parrallel universes would not only allow for all infinite possibilities, but say that they must indeed be infinitely played out until exhausted (though the idea of exhausting the infinite is another intriguin idea for another day). It is only in a universe that does not exhaust all options that options actually remain open. And that can only take place when we limit the number of univeses in which options can occur to actualy happen. Thus, for there to be free will (and the potential for the cat to be either live or dead, but not both) there must be a limited number of universes. As soon as we know that it will be both, by having multiple universes where both scenarios are played out, we have lost the ability to actually choose outcomes.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Did you follow my reasoning? If one has to exercise all of those choices, then one has lost the freedom to not choose, which ought to be an aspect of free will as well.

Imagine a choice with just two possible outcomes. In a truly free universe, you will choose either option A or option B. But in a multiverse, in one univese option A is chosen, and in the other option B is chosen. You may feel like you freely choose between A and B, but the reality is that both must be chosen. So, your freedom to choose did not exist, it was determined simply by whether you happened to randomly exist in universe A or universe B.

True, there are more than A and B choices, and there are a whole series that seem to run on infinitely, but the process remains the same. If all the options have to be fulfill, then what you choose is determined not by choice, but by which universe you happen to be in. Choice would be to say that we can have some options unfulfilled. And that can only happen when there are finite number of universes.
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Yes I followed your reason and the problem is you are looking it from top down which is giving the wrong picture. Try to look at it from bottom up -- a parallel universe is a function of choice.

Here consider this:
Choice would be to say that we can have some options unfulfilled. And that can only happen when there are finite number of universes.
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With freewill you can have a choice not taken, but that is the result of input and not the function. Functions are not defined as such. Basically, you are taking freewill which allows to have infinite number of choices and then limiting the choices based on a individual input. Which is wrong, as function can't be defined on input. A function is broader than a possible input. Basically, you are limiting freewill with consideration of that input. Remember functions are abstractions. In abstraction, a freewill will have infinite number of choices including a choice not taken (which is a choice too), hence, resulting in infinite number parallel universes as a function of choices.

In simple terms, the more choices there are the more number of parallel universes there will be leading to infinitum. Even though sum of all the parallel universes will represent all the choices, which would be infinite, but still a parallel universe represents a choice.
 
Chuck said:
In abstraction, a freewill will have infinite number of choices including a choice not taken (which is a choice too), hence, resulting in infinite number parallel universes as a function of choices.

In simple terms, the more choices there are the more number of parallel universes there will be leading to infinitum. Even though sum of all the parallel universes will represent all the choices, which would be infinite, but still a parallel universe represents a choice.
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Yes, the more choices the more parallel universes. But as soon as you detemine that the entire infinite number of choices must exist, then (by definition) their existence is pre-determined. All that is left is not to determine what will happen, but who it will happen to. And that is the result of random chance selection of you to a particular universe.

Yes, from a bottom up way of looking at the universe (as one residing within it) it would indeed appear as if you have a choice. But for one who is able to stand back and assess all universes at the same time, it becomes obvious that each universe is pre-determined to run along a particular path for it is pre-determined that it must exist as one of the infinite number of possiblities. Only if it has the option of not existing, do options remain open. But in that case we are no longer dealing with an infinite number of parallel universes.
 
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