Pascal's Wager (Again?)

[brenton]

In Christian thought, goodness is not weighed on a scale, but based on whether a person has broken something in humanity--created a bigger mess than what he or she was left to begin with. Bad is not weighed against, but regardless of the good, the bad needs healing by God so a human can be whole.
This is different than heaven or hell, but the hollywood religion most people think is Christianity is a much different thing.

On the original idea of Pascal's Wager: the logic is perhaps not perfect, but the principle of belief is not bad--if the religion is itself good for society and for the human. I think Mormonism is bad for both, though it is getting better, so you can lose in that wager. I think Buddhism, by contrast, is on the whole good, so a person would win (though the wager wouldn't make sense to some Buddhists because of the belief in God issue).

But it is true: I believe in God because I do. It was not evidence (like apologetics or arguments), or upbringing (atheistic, or at least hedonistic), but experience of the Holy Spirit. Despite the fact that I found Christianity abhorrent, I encountered Jesus, and now I can't help but believe.

 

[IzakHalevas]

just out of curiosity do you think that the concept of hell was created by human imagination? The three major religions of this world are following what the mind created... a strange thought.

Judaism has a much different view of "hell" then the other 2 faiths do. Judaism's hell, is very very different, but not as effective at scaring people into converting if you wish for your faith to have a huge following.

 

[- Qatada -]

There you go again, non-belief = rejection.
Why would god not reward a good person? :thumbs_do
The people never rejected god? Which people? Which god?

How can someone claim to obey God when they don't even believe that God decided what's good for us or not?

If a person can't differentiate between good and bad [because they have rejected the criterion] - then how can they be rewarded by God if their rejecting His signs?


That's why faith and deeds come hand in hand, if a person rejects one of them then the other isn't worthy of much.



Your God is One God, the One who created the heavens and the earth. The One who gave you life and has destined for you death. The One to whom you will return without a doubt, and be asked about all that you did. Then you'll be rewarded by God or punished by God depending on your deeds.

However your deeds are worthless if you don't do them to please God Alone, and the only way you can know what is good is by referring to the criterion [Al-Furqaan - the Qur'an.]



Regards.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

wilberhum disbelieving is God is rejecting him. because he exists and your turning away from him.

the truth shouldnt anger you.

 

[wilberhum]

How can someone claim to obey God when they don't even believe that God decided what's good for us or not?

Standard word twist. Not what I said and you know it. Just because I don’t believe that god drops by every once and a while to tell one person whats up means god hasn’t decided what right or wrong, good or evil.

If a person can't differentiate between good and bad [because they have rejected the criterion] -

That is the same old garbage. Atheists can not be good because they have no morals.

how can they be rewarded by God if their rejecting His signs?

Why not? I think a good god would. I guess we will just have to leave that up to god.

That's why faith and deeds come hand in hand

Yes, just like a fish and a bicycle. More atheists have no morals.

if a person rejects one of them then the other isn't worthy of much.

Now I think that lacks morals. Only be good for a heavenly reward? Is that your concept of morals? How about being good because it is the right thing to do?

However your deeds are worthless if you don't do them to please God Alone.

Now I think that is a sad way to look at life. Never do anything because it helps some one.
Never do the right thing simply because it is the right thing.
No wonder you think atheists have no morals.
It seams you don’t have a real grasp on what it is to have morals.

 

[Pygoscelis]

This makes me wonder if theists are capable of conceiving the actual concept of disbelif in their God.

If you don't believe in something you can not reject it. No decision is made of whether to accept or reject what is not thought to exist. Obeying directives from an imaginary (or thought to be imaginary) overseer is insanity, not obedience. To punish somebody for failing to do so is equally nonsensical.

 

[- Qatada -]

Standard word twist. Not what I said and you know it. Just because I don’t believe that god drops by every once and a while to tell one person whats up means god hasn’t decided what right or wrong, good or evil.

Then you gota wonder why God created you.

That is the same old garbage. Atheists can not be good because they have no morals.

When did i say that? Infact i believe that atheists can have morals because of the fitrah [natural inclination to do good] which God has created for us.

Why not? I think a good god would. I guess we will just have to leave that up to god.

That's your thinking, you've got no proof to back that up.

Yes, just like a fish and a bicycle. More atheists have no morals.

I never said that, now you're the one taking things out of context.

Now I think that lacks morals. Only be good for a heavenly reward? Is that your concept of morals? How about being good because it is the right thing to do?

How is being good 'the right thing to do' - do you have any specific proof for that? You don't because you don't believe that God's sent anything down to back that.

Now I think that is a sad way to look at life. Never do anything because it helps some one.

Never do the right thing simply because it is the right thing.
No wonder you think atheists have no morals.
It seams you don’t have a real grasp on what it is to have morals.

I don't think you understand. If we do favours for others, then we're simply doing it because we want a favour back. In islaam we do favours for people and we don't expect favours from them, rather we expect our reward from God instead, which infact makes the muslim who practises this have better morals. Because they don't keep mentioning to others of the favours they've done.



Regards.

 

[wilberhum]

wilberhum disbelieving is God is rejecting him. because he exists and your turning away from him.

the truth shouldnt anger you.

Disbelieving in God is rejecting him

To the same extent that not believing in little green from mars is rejecting them.
If a person could looks at the world and see earthquakes, eruptions, famine, floods and say that they find it illogical that god would create a place like that for his special creation. They may also find it illogical for a good god to allow so many evil people to do horrible things.
I don’t think god would send a good person who only does good deeds to hell, because there was a flaw in there logic. But that is just my vision of god, I could be wrong, just as you could be wrong.

the truth shouldnt anger you.

What makes you think the truth angers me?
And what makes you think you have a handle on truth?
Because you believe does not make it ture.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Then you gota wonder why God created you.

For any number of reasons. Maybe it was a child God's science experiment. Maybe God raises us like cattle and values ascended souls. To think that God's sole purpose for creating us is solely for our benefit is awfully self centred, don't you think?

When did i say that? Infact i believe that atheists can have morals because of the fitrah [natural inclination to do good] which God has created for us.

The quote above contradicts the quote below

If we do favours for others, then we're simply doing it because we want a favour back.

If we have a natural inclination to do what is good (socially constructive) then we have a natural inclination to help others. Period. No expectation of reward.

In islaam we do favours for people and we don't expect favours from them, rather we expect our reward from God instead, which infact makes the muslim who practises this have better morals.

If this is truly your system, and I doubt it is, then the opposite is true. You only do good by people because you expect a reward? It isn't relevant from whom you expect it. This is the only reason you do good? I think this isn't so.

 

[wilberhum]

Then you gota wonder why God created you.

You are right. I do wonder.

When did i say that?

You didn’t say that. But I see no way some of your statements can be made unless you believe atheist can not have morals.

That's your thinking, you've got no proof to back that up.

Oh no, here comes the Proof junk. What you call Proof is Circular logic at best.
There is no proof.

How is being good 'the right thing to do'

Da! You think evil is the right thing to do?

do you have any specific proof for that?

Of course not. There is no proof about anything that involves god of spirits.

You don't because you don't believe that God's sent anything down to back that.

Now I see your Proof. I believe that god sent something down. And what I believe he send down is my Proof.

If we do favours for others, then we're simply doing it because we want a favour back.

Now that is sad and empty. This morning I saw a crippled man looking for hand outs. I gave him some money. I expect no favor from him in retune. What I gave is such a small portion of what god has given me that I don’t it will grant me great merit. It was just the right thing to do.
I guess that concept is beyond you.
Being good for the sake of being good, feals good. But I, as most, need to do more of it.
Try it some time, you might like it too.

 

[- Qatada -]

For any number of reasons. Maybe it was a child God's science experiment. Maybe God raises us like cattle and values ascended souls. To think that God's sole purpose for creating us is solely for our benefit is awfully self centred, don't you think?

There is only one God and God doesn't beget nor is He begotten. Because that doesn't befit His Majesty. When people do things in life, they do it in order to gain attention so they are accepted by others. Hence instead of doing things simply for others, we have a higher purpose of doing it to please God.

The quote above contradicts the quote below

No it doesn't.

If we have a natural inclination to do what is good (socially constructive) then we have a natural inclination to help others. Period. No expectation of reward.

That's the problem, we as humans do want reward. It's called positive reinforcement. That's proven in psychology.

If this is truly your system, and I doubt it is, then the opposite is true. You only do good by people because you expect a reward? It isn't relevant from whom you expect it. This is the only reason you do good? I think this isn't so.

How do you decide what our system is? We do good in order to get God's Mercy hence His reward. This makes the person superior infront of God's eyes because even though this person can't see God, they still strive to please Him. And how do they know that God exists? Because of God's signs that He has given us on the earth.




Regards.

 

[wilberhum]

There is only one God and God doesn't beget nor is He begotten. Because that doesn't befit His Majesty. When people do things in life, they do it in order to gain attention so they are accepted by others. Hence instead of doing things simply for others, we have a higher purpose of doing it to please God.

That is what you believe. What I/we (Pygoscelis) believe is different.

No it doesn't.

Oh but it really does. I think you need a reread.

That's the problem, we as humans do want reward. It's called positive reinforcement. That's proven in psychology.

But some of us think “Doing good is it’s own reward”. Try it, you might like it.

This makes the person superior infront of God's eyes

There is that old tried and true theme. Superiority! I think the concept of superiority comes from the devil and is the source of most of the world’s evil.

 

[Pygoscelis]

That's the problem, we as humans do want reward. It's called positive reinforcement. That's proven in psychology.

This is a fallacy of logic. You refer to operant conditioning. It is proven in psychology that this is one way to modify behaviour. It has never been claimed by anybody I know of until you now that this is the only way to modify behaviour. It has certainly never been claimed by any scientist that this is the sole source of behaviour.

An if you maintain that it is then you are blatantly contradicting yourself, as man can not be inherently inclined to do anything, good or bad, under this view.

Nature vs Nurture both contribute to a person's behaviour.

So l ong as we are talking psych, then you should look into the research on development of morality. Reward/Punishment morality is the most base and earliest to develop, but most of us develop beyond this by our teenage years.

Can you honestly tell me that the only reason you do anything kind and avoid doing anything nasty is because you expect to be rewarded by a God? If so, that makes you a psychopath (by the classic definition) and I hope you never lose your faith.

 

[- Qatada -]

That is what you believe. What I/we (Pygoscelis) believe is different.

Yeah then that's upto you init.

Oh but it really does. I think you need a reread.

Explain the contradiction.

But some of us think “Doing good is it’s own reward”. Try it, you might like it.

Well thats not the case, its proven in psychology that people want positive reinforcement. Or they may obey due to punishment or negative reinforcement.

There is that old tried and true theme. Superiority! I think the concept of superiority comes from the devil and is the source of most of the world’s evil.

And did i say that i know whether i'm superior or not? I said that it's for God to decide. So i don't have the right to claim that i'm better than anyone else.

 

[- Qatada -]

This is a fallacy of logic. You refer to operant conditioning. It is proven in psychology that this is one way to modify behaviour. It has never been claimed by anybody I know of until you now that this is the only way to modify behaviour. It has certainly never been claimed by any scientist that this is the sole source of behaviour.

An if you maintain that it is then you are blatantly contradicting yourself, as man can not be inherently inclined to do anything, good or bad, under this view.

Nature vs Nurture both contribute to a person's behaviour.

So l ong as we are talking psych, then you should look into the research on development of morality. Reward/Punishment morality is the most base and earliest to develop, but most of us develop beyond this by our teenage years.

Can you honestly tell me that the only reason you do anything kind and avoid doing anything nasty is because you expect to be rewarded by a God? If so, that makes you a psychopath (by the classic definition) and I hope you never lose your faith.

Since when did it apply to the age of 13 only? What about people who work extra hours to get that extra pay? That is positive reinforcement.


Classical conditioning has different views, so i disagree with that. God actually sends down alot of good to us, and just because you havn't experienced that - it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said that the rich one isn't the one who's wealthy, but the one who's content. And we as muslims are content with what God ordains for us, whereas the one's who turn away from God don't know why some calamity is happening in life, and what the consequences will be.


A blessing from Allaah is that God sends calmness and tranquility into the hearts of the believers, even if their in a tough situation. That's a blessing from Allaah. Yeah you can't see it, but those who have tasted it know that. So playing the 'i cant see it' game isn't worthy of being played.



Regards.

 

[wilberhum]

Yeah then that's upto you init.

It looks like understanding the situation is beginning to sink in.

Explain the contradiction.

If a person can't differentiate between good and bad [because they have rejected the criterion]
If you can’t take it from there, I can’t help you.

Well thats not the case, its proven in psychology that people want positive reinforcement. Or they may obey due to punishment or negative reinforcement.

I think Pygoscelis explained it best. It is obvious that he knows more than me and shows how little you know.

And did i say that i know whether i'm superior or not? I said that it's for God to decide.

And your good deeds are going to make you superior, right?

So i don't have the right to claim that i'm better than anyone else.

But what do you think? Oh well, best keep that to your self.

 

[- Qatada -]

It looks like understanding the situation is beginning to sink in.

If a person can't differentiate between good and bad [because they have rejected the criterion]
If you can’t take it from there, I can’t help you.

And are you trying to take things out of context now? I said that the reason why might do good is because of the fitrah that God placed in you, then i said that you might not go along with your fitrah because it can get altered unless the person follows guidance [because the person might go astray from the fitrah to follow their desires, even if these desires go against the limits set by God.]

I think Pygoscelis explained it best. It is obvious that he knows more than me and shows how little you know.

And you know that how? You don't have an answer to my response so you don't need to question 'how much i know.'

And your good deeds are going to make you superior, right?

But what do you think? Oh well, best keep that to your self.

It shows your arrogance, nothing else. You just make it look like i've said i'm better than others. Yet i don't agree with that because i don't even know if God will accept the good off me, that will only be found out on the day of judgement. So i stay quiet, because one of the reasons why people won't enter paradise is through their arrogance.

Infact the one's who follow the guidance feel they shouldn't be arrogant because only God knows who is truely sincere. We work hard to please God, He gives us good through that. But any good or bad we recieve in this world is just a temporary trial, and if we are successful - that will only be confirmed on that day.

 

[Pygoscelis]

because of the fitrah that God placed in you

So then you aknowledge that there is a nature component in human behaviour? Yet you maintain that punishment/reward is still the only dymanic? Can't you see the contradiction? Re read the posts above.

If people only behave to seek reward and avoid punishment then there can be no nature, or Fitrah as you say. The sole dynamic would be selfish gratification, no nature involved, no being good for the sake of goodness, etc.

Do you or do you not behave just to seek rewards from your God? I think that you avoid this part of the posts above because you do not truly behave only to seek reward and avoid punishment but stating so would unravel your posts above.

We work hard to please God

Again, I hope this isn't the ONLY reason you behave kindly towards others. For if it is then you would be a psychopath and you would be easily led by others. If this was the case, and again I don't think it is, I'd just have to find somebody to convince you that Allah wants X and you'd do X no matter how terrible X was. Is this partly what leads people to terrorism?

 

[wilberhum]

Infact the one's who follow the guidance feel they shouldn't be arrogant.

No they shouldn’t, but many do. The concept of superiority shows it head many times daily on this forum.

But to the end, I have made my point the best I can.

I believe as I do and you believe as you do.

I do not ask you to believe what I believe, I just ask you to believe that I believe.

And I extend the same to you.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

This makes me wonder if theists are capable of conceiving the actual concept of disbelif in their God.

If you don't believe in something you can not reject it. No decision is made of whether to accept or reject what is not thought to exist. Obeying directives from an imaginary (or thought to be imaginary) overseer is insanity, not obedience. To punish somebody for failing to do so is equally nonsensical.

Hi Pygoscelis
You should go back to the first page and read my post, I could be wrong, but your argument suggests you missed it.