Patriotism vs tribalism debate

Serinity said:
:salam:

I think it is ok to like your country. As long as it doesn't go over in divisions and hatred between us. Our differences should strengthen us, not divide us. Don't fight for nationalism. Idk where the problem here is :hmm:
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There are limits
 
I'm just going to tell you now "patriotism" is one of those buzz words that might set some people off here.
It is because the connotation with "patriotism" may include attachment/support for a nation's government or a some people may assume you may have of superiority of that particular nation over other nations.
Just because you said "patriotism"

I understand though, that is not what you meant at all.

Of course it is natural for a person to feel a special affinity or love for their homeland, and for the foods and clothes they grew up with and whatever aspects of their culture do not contradict the rules of Islam.

As long as you don't feel you are superior to any other nation, and as long as you're not expressing a particular attachment to any particular government and their policies, and as long as you care more for your Islamic identity more so than your cultural identity, then it is fine to like a particular food or clothing styles or language or whatever it is from your tribe,

(but at the end of the day the place that we put the limit is at:
we aren't "tribalistic" so we don't make assumptions that any Muslim of one country is better than that of another.)

We have personal tastes and those tastes will naturally coincide with enjoying the halal memories and culture of our homelands.
In that respect there is nothing wrong with you enjoying aspects of your Egyptian/British heritage.
 
there are limits






you can love the traditions and the foods






but when you love a country for the sake of politics and it's nationalistic background






where u run after that flag






thats when something goes wrong






and sadly thats majority of the cases






in our times










Chat Conve

I think it is ok to like your country. As long as it doesn't go over in divisions and hatred between us. Our differences should strengthen us, not divide us. Don't fight for nationalism. Idk where the problem here is :hmm:[/QUOTE]
 
Cpt.America said:
I'm just going to tell you now "patriotism" is one of those buzz words that might set some people off here.
It is because the connotation with "patriotism" may include attachment/support for a nation's government or a some people may assume you may have of superiority of that particular nation over other nations.
Just because you said "patriotism"

I understand though, that is not what you meant at all.

Of course it is natural for a person to feel a special affinity or love for their homeland, and for the foods and clothes they grew up with and whatever aspects of their culture do not contradict the rules of Islam.

As long as you don't feel you are superior to any other nation, and as long as you're not expressing a particular attachment to any particular government and their policies, and as long as you care more for your Islamic identity more so than your cultural identity, then it is fine to like a particular food or clothing styles or language or whatever it is from your tribe,

(but at the end of the day the place that we put the limit is at:
we aren't "tribalistic" so we don't make assumptions that any Muslim of one country is better than that of another.)

We have personal tastes and those tastes will naturally coincide with enjoying the halal memories and culture of our homelands.
In that respect there is nothing wrong with you enjoying aspects of your Egyptian/British heritage.
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:jz:

Good posts from a good akh.
 
Of course everything has limits, just same if it´s loving your country or drinking water. I just wonder why here the first idea is so often negative if someone writes that he/she loves his/hers country. It doesn´t always mean that we love politicians or the policy.

Well, in many times people usually deny to love any of them at all.

Kind of thinking I would call as generalization and we have to remember the limits with it too so that it doesn´t go too far.
 
Just to make things clear really. Enjoy the good forbid the evil?

sister herb said:
Of course everything has limits, just same if it´s loving your country or drinking water. I just wonder why here the first idea is so often negative if someone writes that he/she loves his/hers country. It doesn´t always mean that we love politicians or the policy.

Well, in many times people usually deny to love any of them at all.

Kind of thinking I would call as generalization and we have to remember the limits with it too so that it doesn´t go too far.
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EgyptPrincess said:
I'm patriotic about my ethnicity. I'm British / Egyptian Muslim and wouldn't want to be anything else. Others are proud of being Saudi or Syrian or Palestinian etc so why can't I be?
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Of course you can (as long as you remember your limits...). ;D I too wouldn´t want to be anything else than what I am (a Finnish) altought some my Palestinian friends have told that of their mind I am more as Palestinian than Finnish but it´s the other story. I don´t see why I should shame what I am (I mean Finnish). Who it would help as I can´t change it?

Of course I am proud to be Muslim too (it´s better to add before someone pointed this out).
 
I don't care what country someone is from. In a nutshell do I like the UK better than Serbia or Greenland? Well I've never been but I could almost guarantee that I prefer the UK to Serbia, why? Because Seriba is cold and I hate cold places. I like warmth and sunshine. I also like fish and chips and roast dinners, I also like the British education system and the national health system. I like being able to walk down the street and not feel like I will be attacked or robbed. I like the cities like London and I can't get enough of shopping in London :shade:

Now do I favour a person based on their ethnicity? Absolutely not, this is racist. Do I favour a British or Egyptian muslim over a Serbian or Danish muslim? Absolutely not. The notion that one cannot like or "love" their country is absurd. Some countries just are more pleasant than others. That doesn't mean the people are more pleasant, I've met some truly disgusting people in the UK. Vile animals.

These days people get the wrong impression of loving your heritage / homeland. Go move to the arctic circle and tell me you don't prefer your homeland.
 
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Patriotism for a secular kufr nation won't help you on the Day of Judgement. Tribalism was one of the things the Prophet s.a.a.w. had to abolish in the deep tribal society of Arabia. This is why he made the people of Medina take in the emigrants of Mecca following the migration to Medina. Brotherhood in Islam comes before tribe, nation, ethnicity, even family if they are not Muslim. It is part of Wala and Bara.
 
It'd be wrong for you to judge people based on their ethnicity or tribe or nation, etc. But if you like your country better than mine, or whatever. Would I hate you? Absolutely not. we all have our tastes in terms of places etc. And I know you wouldn't judge people based on their preferences (as long as it doesn't go against Islam) I am sure you know this, as mentioned in your post.

Differences should strengthen us, not divide us. It is cool to like a place better than the other, based on geography etc. But to prefer any law above The Law of Allah SWT is kufr akbar. May Allah SWT protect us from that. Ameen.

we should rejoice in our differences, and strengthen our bonds. you like pizza without ketchup? I like pizza with ketchup. No problemo.
Allahu alam.
 
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EgyptPrincess said:
I don't care what country someone is from. In a nutshell do I like the UK better than Serbia or Greenland? Well I've never been but I could almost guarantee that I prefer the UK to Serbia, why? Because Seriba is cold and I hate cold places. I like warmth and sunshine. I also like fish and chips and roast dinners, I also like the British education system and the national health system. I like being able to walk down the street and not feel like I will be attacked or robbed. I like the cities like London and I can't get enough of shopping in London :shade:

Now do I favour a person based on their ethnicity? Absolutely not, this is racist. Do I favour a British or Egyptian muslim over a Serbian or Danish muslim? Absolutely not. The notion that one cannot like or "love" their country is absurd. Some countries just are more pleasant than others. That doesn't mean the people are more pleasant, I've met some truly disgusting people in the UK. Vile animals.

These days people get the wrong impression of loving your heritage / homeland. Go move to the arctic circle and tell me you don't prefer your homeland.
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Yo. Serbia is very warm, I'd assume in the summer, and very cold in the winter. If at all, UK is more rainy and cold than Serbia, I'd assume.
 
Serinity said:
Yo. Serbia is very warm, I'd assume in the summer, and very cold in the winter. If at all, UK is more rainy and cold than Serbia, I'd assume.
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To be honest when it comes to geography I'm pretty stupid. I thought Serbia was a frozen wasteland :embarrass

One of the things I hate about the UK is the rain... nothing worse then getting soaked wet through lol.
 
EgyptPrincess said:
To be honest when it comes to geography I'm pretty stupid. I thought Serbia was a frozen wasteland :embarrass

One of the things I hate about the UK is the rain... nothing worse then getting soaked wet through lol.
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it is pretty gorgeous warm, I'd assume. In the summer it can reach 38 or less. Allahu alam
 
EgyptPrincess said:
I'm patriotic about my ethnicity. I'm British / Egyptian Muslim and wouldn't want to be anything else. Others are proud of being Saudi or Syrian or Palestinian etc so why can't I be?
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First of all I am also proud of being Pakistani, and that does not make me better or worse Muslim. A muslim can be a very good muslim and still be patriotic towards country, as long as it does not make us divide into groups. Like I see many arabs being so much proud of maps what non muslims drawn after world wars, that they start to hate people from other areas. If being patriotic means that you consider yourself better than others, and want to divide, then that kind of thinking is definitely wrong and not allowed.

When I read your post, I got the understanding that by patriotic you only mean loving the country, and not division. And may be other understood it in different manner.

When the nationality does not make you divide, then there is no harm in identifying yourself belonging to some place, as even the Prophet praised some people based on the area they belonged to... Like he praised people of Faris in a hadith. Even Quran calls people as muhajir and ansaar. But these titles did not divide them, so it was allowed. But when on a occasion there was a dispute between muslims due to munafiqeen, and people from muhajir called muhajir and ansar called on ansar, Prophet called it as remaining attributes of Jahiliyya. That time it caused division, so it was not allowed.

So if the by belonging to a country you just mean identification, and does not cause division, there is no harm in it. But if it causes division, then it is not allowed. Like today some arab from one country call names of people from other countries.
 
I find the attitude of some Muslims very judgemental here on this forum. I don't want to offend anyone, but this kind of attitude of pointing at someone and start criticizing them directly, as if we ourselves are true muslims, is totally unislamic.
I also read a post above saying another person to not give opinions or talk about Islamic teachings without knowledge. If that is the case, then what is the purpose of a forum! If she will not tell what she understands from some verse or hadith, how will she learn!
Please be more accepting and open minded, and stop criticizing others. You want to know bid3a, this attitude itself is a bid3a.
 
EgyptPrincess said:
I'm patriotic about my ethnicity. I'm British / Egyptian Muslim and wouldn't want to be anything else. Others are proud of being Saudi or Syrian or Palestinian etc so why can't I be?
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About cultural identity and what it means to be a Muslim in a western society, I think you should listen to Dr. Tariq Ramadan. BTW he is also Egyptian :) born in France I think. You may find some of the topics in series very interesting. Listen and share with us what you learn. We may benefit from it as well.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5BJA7jFVRxuX2c6yPSdttFQoY8sqt3ZG
 

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