Peace in Palestine?

[Grace Seeker]

you must come from a small town? indeed in NY both Rosh Hashana and yom Kippur are holidays where schools and most govt. places are closed.
Hanukkah seems to fall at the same heel of xmas so it too is an automatic time off. No such luck with the only two religious holidays of the Islamic calendar.

Try to travel a little and I am my own boss!

all the best

Point being that the "we" in your above post "we have all Jewish holidays off" is NOT the USA but New York. So, is your other statement, "Muslims outnumber Jews" still true when speaking just of New York?

If you had gotten out more you would have realized that what is true for New York isn't necessarily true for the entire country. We don't all celebrate something just because New York does. But there are in fact all sorts of additional holidays that people in different certain parts of the country get as holidays that they don't in other parts of the country. In Illinois Lincoln's birthday is often taken off. But not in Virginia, there they celebrate Robert E. Lee. Because of its large ethnic Polish population, Chicago gets Casimir Pulaski day off. I know of a small community with a large Swedish population that takes the King of Sweden's birthday as a holiday. And in greater Detroit area a lot of businesses do close for the end of Ramadan.

Finally, if you're your own boss, then no one is forcing you to take off Jewish holidays and no one is telling you not to take of Islamic ones.

 

[Ramadhan]

No, they are not, but mainly because of the small percentage of the population that is Muslim.

For a contrast:
the buddhists population in Indonesia is less than 1%,
the muslims population in France is between 5-10%

while the buddhists enjoy so much of tolerance, status and other perks in Indonesia, the muslims in France cannot even wear the dress prescribed by their religion.

I can quote you some of the laws, though, from here in the US:

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer --

(1) To fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or

(2) To limit, segregate, or classify his employees or applicants for employment in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.


......

Once the employee advises the employer of the sincerely held religious belief, the burden shifts to the employer to accommodate that belief. The employee should suggest accommodation alternatives. In the example of working on the Sabbath or Sunday noted above, the employee can offer to work on an alternative day or suggest other employees who may work the Sabbath or Sunday shift.

The employer must undertake efforts to accommodate the employee's religious belief. An employer cannot establish a zero tolerance policy against accommodating religious belief and practice. The employer must take seriously its obligation to accommodate the belief.

If you tell your employer that you are Muslim when you are hired then he is required by law to accommodate your religious beliefs, including prayer and holidays. So while Eid is not a national holiday all Muslims may have that day off, as well as Fridays if they wish.

This is pretty standard.

So, employers in the US must provide prayer rooms for muslims and must allow muslims to pray daily prayers (5 times a day) at their workplace?
and friday off too?
I'd like to see that.

 

[-Fallen Angel-]

Okay this thread is going off topic :/
If you don't have anything to say relating to Palestine/Gaza then dont post :O

 

[جوري]

Point being that the "we" in your above post "we have all Jewish holidays off" is NOT the USA but New York. So, is your other statement, "Muslims outnumber Jews" still true when speaking just of New York?

If you had gotten out more you would have realized that what is true for New York isn't necessarily true for the entire country. We don't all celebrate something just because New York does. But there are in fact all sorts of additional holidays that people in different certain parts of the country get as holidays that they don't in other parts of the country. In Illinois Lincoln's birthday is often taken off. But not in Virginia, there they celebrate Robert E. Lee. Because of its large ethnic Polish population, Chicago gets Casimir Pulaski day off. I know of a small community with a large Swedish population that takes the King of Sweden's birthday as a holiday. And in greater Detroit area a lot of businesses do close for the end of Ramadan.

Finally, if you're your own boss, then no one is forcing you to take off Jewish holidays and no one is telling you not to take of Islamic ones.

I don't know what small hick town you are from but most metropolitan cities I have visited in the U.S observe them!

and yes Muslims outnumber Jews period.. a bit of common sense needs to be used here, any small percentage of Muslims is greater than any small percentage of Jews in any country!

I am not sure why you find common sense daunting?
Thus, I don't need all the rest of the colorful details. If two allegedly Abrahamic religions get their holidays off as national holidays, then the third should too and the fact that Muslims are that much more, would make it hypocritical at best to celebrate either christian holidays or Jewish ones while neglecting Islamic holidays given that it is basically two days out of the entire year!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

Naidamar, I don't recall ever having said anything negative about Indonesia when speaking about intolerance. I won't be rude and call you names or ask you to shut your trap as you did to me, but I would ask that you actually read my posts before getting upset and responding with posts that have nothing to do with what I posted.



Using that logic then I guess that black people were never treated poorly in the United States, nor were the Native Americans since there are so many still here, nor are the Palestinians today treated poorly.



The longevity of a group in an area is not the prime factor in how the government treats them. Nor is it in any way relevant to how they are treated currently, or 500 or 1000 years ago.

I like the way your moving away from europe now and to the US which is based on the idea of tolerance - europe has never been tolerant of minorities period until the last 50 to 100 years. So all your arguments preety much fall short. It is a new thing for europe thats why most americans (i repeat) ran away from europe in the first place.

Ofcourse it is - You couldnt be a muslim in the UK in the 19th century as it was against the law - However you could still exist as a christian in Egypt - a Jew in Iran or Persia and a Hindu in Mughal india. We're not talking about having a great life or being treated well (whatever that can mean) but simply the idea of being allowed to live in a place.

 

[Grace Seeker]

and yes Muslims outnumber Jews period.. a bit of common sense needs to be used here, any small percentage of Muslims is greater than any small percentage of Jews in any country!

But the case you cite of Jewish holidays being recognized and Muslims one's not recognized is not something that is occuring throughout the country. It is occuring where you live. So, common sense would say that you have no point in comparing the size of the two populations nationwide.

What is the relationship between their respective local populations?

New York County Christian 702,459 Jewish 314,500 Muslim 37,078
Bronx County Christian 651,519 Jewish 83,700 Muslim 12,164
Queens County Christian 772,045 Jewish 238,000 Muslim 52,038
Kings County Christian 1,111,396 Jewish 379,000 Muslim 57,897
Richmond County Christian 290,246 Jewish 33,700 Muslim 8,082
Nassau County Christian 792,148 Jewish 207,700 Muslim 11,164

Entire NYC Metro area (including NJ & CT) Christian 9,213,262 Jewish 1,932,400 Muslim 289,358

New York State Christian 9,492,859 Jewish 1,653,870 Muslim 223,968


(source: Religious Congregations & Membership - Denominational Groupings, published by Church of the Nazarene Research Center, data represents populations in the year 2000.)



You probably have a point that Muslims should be able to take off their holidays. But your argument is that Jews are getting favored when they have less population. That simply isn't true in the areas where you have identified this favoring to have occurred.

BTW, Christians are the dominant religion in the USA, we have three major religious holidays -- Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost -- yet you will note that Christmas is the only federally recognized holiday.


But again, your biggest problem is that you don't argue from facts:

and yes Muslims outnumber Jews period

That is evidently your opinion. Now for the facts: Jews outnumber Muslims in the USA.
Jews 2,680,000 (1.2% of total population) Muslims 1,349,000 (0.6% of total population)

source: American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS 2008)

 

[جوري]

But the case you cite of Jewish holidays being recognized and Muslims one's not recognized is not something that is occuring throughout the country. It is occuring where you live. So, common sense would say that you have no point in comparing the size of the two populations nationwide.

What is the relationship between their respective local populations?

New York County Christian 702,459 Jewish 314,500 Muslim 37,078
Bronx County Christian 651,519 Jewish 83,700 Muslim 12,164
Queens County Christian 772,045 Jewish 238,000 Muslim 52,038
Kings County Christian 1,111,396 Jewish 379,000 Muslim 57,897
Richmond County Christian 290,246 Jewish 33,700 Muslim 8,082
Nassau County Christian 792,148 Jewish 207,700 Muslim 11,164

Entire NYC Metro area (including NJ & CT) Christian 9,213,262 Jewish 1,932,400 Muslim 289,358

New York State Christian 9,492,859 Jewish 1,653,870 Muslim 223,968


(source: Religious Congregations & Membership - Denominational Groupings, published by Church of the Nazarene Research Center, data represents populations in the year 2000.)



You probably have a point that Muslims should be able to take off their holidays. But your argument is that Jews are getting favored when they have less population. That simply isn't true in the areas where you have identified this favoring to have occurred.

BTW, Christians are the dominant religion in the USA, we have three major religious holidays -- Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost -- yet you will note that Christmas is the only federally recognized holiday.


But again, your biggest problem is that you don't argue from facts:


That is evidently your opinion. Now for the facts: Jews outnumber Muslims in the USA.
Jews 2,680,000 (1.2% of total population) Muslims 1,349,000 (0.6% of total population)

source: American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS 2008)

I don't think you quite know how statistics and epidemiology works-- rather than giving you a lesson where I haven't the time nor the interest, let's have an analogy.
You google as you so handily like to demonstrate and come up with a neat statistic that there are only 800 cases of TB in the U.S and you boast of how the rudy made it almost illegal to have TB, that you have to be in solitary confinement and getting treatment against your will etc. treat anyone even if not sick to save everyone as compared to say a third world country. Now, how does the govt. or the CDC find out about those cases of TB, you know it is a reportable disease.. do they knock door to door and screen everyone? do people with TB also have insurance and thus go and seek treatment knowing what it entails? Does everyone have insurance? is everyone in the country legal? is everyone in the country screened? what about those who have latent TB and no symptoms?
Well a smart fellow like you, only goes by the reported cases and that is pretty much how you like to make your point any point (I have no idea why abstract concepts are hard for you to grasp) so please allow me to be the first to burst that bubble by letting you know, that NOT EVERY CASE OF TB is reported nor found out about. In fact it is only mandatory to get TB testing for those who are HIV pts. prison populations, health-care workers. and anyone has the right to go against medical recommendation. In other words if you are a known TB you will have to by law receive treatment. but that same law also protects you from having a PPD test if you have no desire to have one done!
Try to carry that thought now to the reported Muslim population, take into account the 20,000 that convert yearly, as compared to say Judaism who takes no converts and evolve it in your mind to reflect the world population and how much of that population is of a particular creed. You'll find out, whether or not you use that abstract thought that you already entered with your handy 'american survey' website with a few confounders!

have a wonderful day =)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Try to carry that thought now to the reported Muslim population, take into account the 20,000 that convert yearly, as compared to say Judaism who takes no converts and evolve it in your mind to reflect the world population and how much of that population is of a particular creed. You'll find out, whether or not you use that abstract thought that you already entered with your handy 'american survey' website with a few confounders!

have a wonderful day =)

So, you are asserting that Muslims would not identify themselves as Muslims in these surveys, but that other groups would self-identify, or that Muslims are somehow more likely to be missed and not counted than other groups. Thus you doubt the integrity of the survey because it disagrees with your pre-formed conclusion. Then you probably doubt that they report Islam to have more than doubled in the last 20 years, as well.

In a society, like the US, that governs itself by the population voting or otherwise making its collective voice known, if Muslims really are hiding their presence and thus reducing their apparent numbers below reality, then your complaint about Jews being favored over Muslim when there are more Muslims is going to repeatedly fall on deaf ears until the true numbers of Muslims are more than just and assertion but substantiated by census.


BTW, I was an economics major, I know very well how statistics work. Your objection is not to the statistics themselves, but the validity of the manner in which the sampling was done. If Muslims are under reported, exactly whose fault is that?

Muslim advocacy groups such as the Council on American Islamic Relations routinely cite a span of 6 million to 8 million people in describing the size of Islam in America.
That would be between 2 percent and 3 percent of the U.S. population and make Muslims greater in number than Mormons or Jews.

(source: Islamic Society of North America)

That's a huge difference between these asserted numbers and even the largest numbers report by any group who has surveyed religious populations in America. It's unlikely that every group is utilizing that bad of methodology. So, either the numbers really aren't there, or people that mosques are counting as Muslims are reporting their religious affliation differently to surveyors. Either way, this would explain why Muslims don't yet have recognition of Islamic holidays by the population as a whole. Personally, I actually wish there was more recognition. I couldn't find a card for Ramadan or Eid this year even after checking at more than half a doxen card shops.


The good news is that "Muslim organizations have taken it upon themselves to start an ambitious new census: an attempt to account for every mosque and Muslim in America."

 

[جوري]

So, you are asserting that Muslims would not identify themselves as Muslims in these surveys, but that other groups would self-identify, or that Muslims are somehow more likely to be missed and not counted than other groups. Thus you doubt the integrity of the survey because it disagrees with your pre-formed conclusion. Then you probably doubt that they report Islam to have more than doubled in the last 20 years, as well.

That is not at all what I am saying. I am asking for the methodology of the headcount of the site you so graciously shared!

In a society, like the US, that governs itself by the population voting or otherwise making its collective voice known, if Muslims really are hiding their presence and thus reducing their apparent numbers below reality, then your complaint about Jews being favored over Muslim when there are more Muslims is going to repeatedly fall on deaf ears until the true numbers of Muslims are more than just and assertion but substantiated by census.

Here is one method that fails to give you an adequate headcount. The majority of observant Muslims don't vote!

BTW, I was an economics major, I know very well how statistics work. Your objection is not to the statistics themselves, but the validity of the manner in which the sampling was done. If Muslims are under reported, exactly whose fault is that?

Yours I believe-- since you are either being dishonest in the reporting but mum at best to the confounders until pointed out or boast about accolades you don't actually possess!

That's a huge difference between these asserted numbers and even the largest numbers report by any group who has surveyed religious populations in America. It's unlikely that every group is utilizing that bad of methodology. So, either the numbers really aren't there, or people that mosques are counting as Muslims are reporting their religious affliation differently to surveyors. Either way, this would explain why Muslims don't yet have recognition of Islamic holidays by the population as a whole. Personally, I actually wish there was more recognition. I couldn't find a card for Ramadan or Eid this year even after checking at more than half a doxen card shops.

You said above one of the methods of identifying religious affiliations is voting, that is already out. Try to find other avenues and we'll see why there is no reflection to the actual numbers there either

The good news is that "Muslim organizations have taken it upon themselves to start an ambitious new census: an attempt to account for every mosque and Muslim in America."

Even with that bit of good news, how many Muslims actually attend mosques? I don't and haven't and I am sure I am not alone as there is no obligation for me to go!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

You said above one of the methods of identifying religious affiliations is voting,

No, I did not. Read again.

 

[جوري]

No, I did not. Read again.

I'll try to approach all your posts with your same linear style!

all the best

 

[titus]

I'll try to approach all your posts with your same linear style!

You should try and understand them also, or maybe even admit when you were mistaken in instead of trying to deflect.

While you are asking for the methodology for his numbers maybe you can explain CAIR's numbers, which are immensely higher than any other scientific poll I have ever seen.

And going back to your TB analogy, you are correct that not every case of TB is reported. Nor is every case of the flu. We can, though, by looking at the reported cases give an extremely educated guess as to which is more prevalent.

Even with that bit of good news, how many Muslims actually attend mosques? I don't and haven't and I am sure I am not alone as there is no obligation for me to go!

Again, read the post. He mentioned counting every mosque and Muslim. Not every Muslim that goes to mosque.

I think the term "straw man" is used too often here, but your post is a great example of it. You keep arguing about things that he did not even say.

 

[جوري]

You should try and understand them also, or maybe even admit when you were mistaken in instead of trying to deflect.

While you are asking for the methodology for his numbers maybe you can explain CAIR's numbers, which are immensely higher than any other scientific poll I have ever seen.

And going back to your TB analogy, you are correct that not every case of TB is reported. Nor is every case of the flu. We can, though, by looking at the reported cases give an extremely educated guess as to which is more prevalent.

Why should I strain to accommodate tortured attempts at common sense? Clearly you have missed the bigger picture when coming to the rescue. I believe it is presented to you in pie form.. and if we are to divide up TB'S and Flu's as Jews vs. Muslims (reported or not) we outnumber them by hundreds of millions.. Perhaps you should have a paradigm shift before you present us with faulty stats?

Again, read the post. He mentioned counting every mosque and Muslim. Not every Muslim that goes to mosque.

This changes things how?

I think the term "straw man" is used too often here, but your post is a great example of it. You keep arguing about things that he did not even say.

Coming from you, and reflecting on your faulty analogies above, I'll surely take that with a hearty guffaw and a grain of salt.. BTW, don't you want to go save the day for some other under-dog whose logic or lack thereof is failing somewhere else on this forum?

all the best as usual

 

[titus]

we outnumber them by hundreds of millions.

He specifically refers to the population in the US, not the world. Maybe you missed that part, or forgot.

This changes things how?

If you cannot answer that question then I can fully understand why are having difficulty with the other posts.

BTW, don't you want to go save the day for some other under-dog whose logic or lack thereof is failing somewhere else on this forum?

There is a flaw in logic on this thread, but not with Grace Seeker. Your attempt to show a flaw in his numbers did just the opposite.

 

[Zafran]

Nobody actually knows how many muslims there are in the US anyway - Grace seeker did give bias stats.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_numb.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-08-05-muslim-jew-census_N.htm

 

[titus]

The first link gives some known estimate. Most of the higher numbers are from Muslim, not unbiased, sources.

Grace Seekers link actually provided concrete numbers at least. If anything I would say that his numbers were more unbiased since they were derived scientifically and not by people guessing "based on personal experience in the Muslim community" or other extrapolations based on non-scientific means. If the actual numbers are not accurate the ratios, at least, are probably close.

The second link provides no insight that I could see on Muslim numbers in the US.

Another issue, when counting Muslims, is whether or not to count non-practicing Muslims or those who have left the religion. Some of the higher population estimates include family members of Muslim families that no longer consider themselves Muslim and look at Islam as more of a cultural thing than a religious one. The same issue also occurs when trying to count Jews in the United States as many who are called Jewish do not actually practice the religion.

 

[جوري]

If you desire to introduce biases then back them up. I don't go at face value, and know you to desire saving face when the odds and common sense are stacked up against you..
if you want to use practicing vs. non-practicing, then you'd be better off counting the annual one percent decrease in Christianity, the state of inertia in Judaism vs. the 20,000 plus conversions to Islam yearly..

come and post the numbers you've crunched, once your piece is accepted as a national consensus

all the best

 

[titus]

I don't go at face value, and know you to desire saving face when the odds and common sense are stacked up against you..

You are more than welcome to provide "facts" that refute anything I have said.

As for me introducing bias, if you read carefully I specifically said that same bias applies to Jews and Christians.

hen you'd be better off counting the annual one percent decrease in Christianity, the state of inertia in Judaism vs. the 20,000 plus conversions to Islam yearly..

If we wanted to change the subject to the populations of those religions in the future then yes. In this discussion we are concerned with the present day.

 

[جوري]

You are more than welcome to provide "facts" that refute anything I have said.

What is there to refute? your opinion?
Anyone should be able to look at the latest chart of world religions and come up with a very educated conclusion!

As for me introducing bias, if you read carefully I specifically said that same bias applies to Jews and Christians.

The point of introducing bias isn't to end up with the original faulty conclusion but to re-work it!

If we wanted to change the subject to the populations of those religions in the future then yes. In this discussion we are concerned with the present day.

These are the stats as of current day. Although I believe the number to be actually less than thought, a few millions Jews don't over number more than a billion and a half Muslims in any given population not even 'Israel'

all the best

 

[Athrun66]

huh ?
The Four Great Powers [Britain, France, Italy and the United States] are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, and future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land. In my opinion that is right.
Arthur James Balfour

how do you even argue the right of any Israeli living their ? , the land belongs to the Palestinians the choice of peace or war is only theirs to make and any talk about blame or fault went out of the window when you threw hundred of thousands of indigenous people out of their homeland to suite your own purposes and agenda .