People that don't believe in Hadiths ? what should I do

D

DAWUD_adnan

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I'm in a discussion with someone who doesn't believe in Ahadith. Is there a scholarly manner in which I can refute him?

Please, help is appreciated :D
 
http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-divisions/1399-sectarian-article-quranites.html

heres a article from our very own Li :D

just ask them this! do you believe in the dajjal ?they should say yes, say show me from the Quraan, where he is mentioned? ask them about various things, like is the lizard dhab thingy halaal? show us from Quraan and many verses from the Quraan like take what the messenger gives you, and stuf

but i would say this month be a bit selfish and forget the person and focus on yourself and try to get rewards and then after ramadan, pow wow bish bosh bash em down!
 
How do they pray? how do they know the different rulings for prayer? How do they follow the Quran ayah of following Muhammed :arabic5: if you love Allah?
 
amani said:
How do they pray? how do they know the different rulings for prayer? How do they follow the Quran ayah of following Muhammed :arabic5: if you love Allah?
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I already asked him this, he said " I pray how I want to pray"
 
I do not know what God will or will not accept. The only one who does know what God will or will not accept is God himself. And we will find out what that is after we die.
Nothing for certain because what we know of the Prophet (pbuh) comes from fallible and imperfect human history filtered through the mutterings of more than a century of fallible and imperfect human scholars. The Quran on the other hand is of divine source (I believe).

Complexity is not an indication of accuracy or rigour. What are these comprehensive steps? Who takes them? As determined by who?

Considering that the family and companions of the Prophet Muhammad started disagreeing with each other right after the Prophet died I am not very impressed by that. Some give more credence to the indirectly transmitted traditions of Ali, some give more credence to the indirectly transmitted traditions of Aisha. I'd rather give no credence to any of it as a basis of religion.
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That's what he said.

Really difficult.
 
some questions for him..

in the Quraan says men can hit their wifes, but this is meant to be like a light tap or somethin as it says in hadiths, where do you quraanites stop the limit seein as you have no hadiths to guide you:p

in the quraan we are told we can shorten the prayer, again tell me how long do i neeed to travel in order for me to be able to shorten the prayer, and how much do i need to cut the prayer, and while your at it, show me from the Quraan, how do i pray?

in surah al ahzaab, it says in the messenger you see a good example to follow, innaay? so where do we find examples and again in surah al qalam, it says you are of exalted character, so where can we find info about the Prophets example and his character, which the Quraan says is a good example to follow?

ask him these and say i want answers not questions answered with questions, answer these questions :D
 
DAWUD_adnan said:
I already asked him this, he said " I pray how I want to pray"
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that strange and indicates he doesnt have any real answers.

is he a Quranite?

and the paragraph you posted is full of contradiction because on the one hand he believes the Quran was revealed to Muhammed :arabic5: as a Book of Truth and transmitted to us from centuries before and on the other, he believes Muhammed :arabic5: was not capable of showing us how to follow the Quran and how in the Quran it says

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire
53:3

and that the scholars were not capable of collecting narrations. That is why we have undisputable sahih collections and other collections which may not be sahih and have been addressed

He follows his desires when he 'prays how he wants to pray' he is as a result not following the Quran which told us to follow Muhammed :arabic5: and that is through both his words and actions.
 
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,
Wa Salaatu Wa Salam Ala Habibuna Wa Nabiyuna Muhammad.

First in discussing with him I would advice you to purify your intention as I advise myself, insha'Allah.

I would ask you to remind him that we are all humans with a common goal, i.e. to worship God, so when we discuss this matters, we should start from a point of wanting to gain knowledge and clarify matters and not score points.

Next step I would exhort you to record and take things step by step with the individual, for example, with this statement that you have poster dear brother, analyse it and put forth your observation, these are mine;

First here is his statement:

DAWUD_adnan said:
I do not know what God will or will not accept. The only one who does know what God will or will not accept is God himself. And we will find out what that is after we die.
Nothing for certain because what we know of the Prophet (pbuh) comes from fallible and imperfect human history filtered through the mutterings of more than a century of fallible and imperfect human scholars. The Quran on the other hand is of divine source (I believe).

Complexity is not an indication of accuracy or rigour. What are these comprehensive steps? Who takes them? As determined by who?

Considering that the family and companions of the Prophet Muhammad started disagreeing with each other right after the Prophet died I am not very impressed by that. Some give more credence to the indirectly transmitted traditions of Ali, some give more credence to the indirectly transmitted traditions of Aisha. I'd rather give no credence to any of it as a basis of religion.
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That's what he said.

Really difficult.
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First Observation;

The Quran on the other hand is of divine source (I believe).​

The Sunnah or path of the Prophet is of divine source too, does he not know that the Qur'an, which he takes as divine, states, translation of the meaning taken from Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an;

<<And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Remembrance, so that you may clearly explain to mankind what has been revealed to them, and so that they may give thought.>>16:44​

And who is the source Muhammad will use to explain the Qur'an;

Then it is for Us (Allah) to make it clear (to you)75:19​

Muhammad was not a creator of the religion,he did not come up with explanations of himself. Allah makes it clear to Him, and thus the Sunnah, the way of Muhammad is of a divine source. Just like the Qur'an.

Observation Two

The Quran on the other hand is of divine source (I believe).​

The second point is from this statement also, it is a question, it seems you assume that due to the divine origin of the Qur'an it is somehow preserved, just because something is originally from God does not mean it is guaranteed preservation. If you believe it does then please show us why. If you believe the Qur'an was preserved please show us the method through which God, throughout history has preserved the Qur'an.

It is my understanding that when one studies history he finds the Qur'an was preserved, by God, with the same means as the Sunnah. Individuals who lived, breathed, studied and dreamt about Islam, individuals who fought and sacrafised for Islam, preserved both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. They were, as it is clear from history, the tools that God utilised in the preservation of these sources.

Third Observation

This observation stemms from this statement:

Nothing for certain because what we know of the Prophet (pbuh) comes from fallible and imperfect human history filtered through the mutterings of more than a century of fallible and imperfect human scholars.​

Whilst I do agree that fallible humans cannot produce something perfect like the Qur'an for example, this is not what you are stating nor the point being discussed. What the real point is, can fallible humans preserve a text which is infallible? I don't see why they cannot.

All these humans done was take what was given by Muhammad, and preserve it. Like for example, if I took a letter from someone, and kept it in a safe, and passed the keys down in generation to my children, after a thousand years, if you open the safe the letter will have been preserved, so I and my infallible children will have preserved a text 100%.

I will insha'Allah speak on the rest another time if I can.


And Allah knows best.
 
As an outsider looking in an new to Islam, I can tell you that I have struggled to understand Musilm strict adherence to the hadith many of which are bizarre.

I use the word bizarre because many here see the opposite of something which to me appears so obviously clear. I put that down to the fact that many of you have been steeped in it so deeply for so long you can’t see the ‘wood for the trees.’

Even the arguments you use as proof that the hadith are as valid as the Qur’an to me appears to defy logic. Your ‘proof’ seems to rely upon the point that because something is not clearly explained in the Qur’an is clarified elsewhere (how you pray for example) that God planned for the hadith that explains how you should pray and so all hadith were pre-planned by God and consequently consecrated by God. That is simply illogical. It’s possible that God doesn’t really mind which way your hands are raised or crossed whilst you pray. In fact it would seem reasonable to presume that if He did He would have dictated the detail to Mohammed who would have recorded it in the Qur’an.

As an outsider I see nothing wrong in looking at how Mohammed led his life and taking from it whatever appears beneficial but it seems madness to try to copy every detail of how a person lived their life in a world which was massively different than the world we live in. And it seems double madness to adhere to a set of texts which are of questionable origin, accuracy and value just because you follow one set of instructions on how you pray.

Just my humble non Muslim opinion.
 
All you ever seem to do here is to mock and distort. Average Muslim is not a Muhaddith as such he lives (or should) by the rules of his imaam's/teacher's mazhab

No one is supposed to copy every detail of Last Prophet's life and live it out.
it would, indeed, be very bizarre even impossible to do.

Besides that, every thing attributed to him is not quite true. in this century alone an albanian scholar, found over 4 thousand in-authentic or fabricated hadiths. then there are outright works of fiction (like al-kafi and hundreds more) which are like gospel to party of Ali (R.A) and since those people are/have infiltrated throughout the Muslim world, many people believe in what they say and indeed can't tell wood from the trees

Definition of Sunnah
 
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Thinker said:
Even the arguments you use as proof that the hadith are as valid as the Qur’an to me appears to defy logic. Your ‘proof’ seems to rely upon the point that because something is not clearly explained in the Qur’an is clarified elsewhere (how you pray for example) that God planned for the hadith that explains how you should pray and so all hadith were pre-planned by God and consequently consecrated by God. That is simply illogical. It’s possible that God doesn’t really mind which way your hands are raised or crossed whilst you pray. In fact it would seem reasonable to presume that if He did He would have dictated the detail to Mohammed who would have recorded it in the Qur’an.
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This is nothing but unfounded speculation. We follow the hadith because Allah told us in the Quran to obey the Messenger, Muhammad pbuh. And the hadith are recordings of things he commanded us to do - amongst other things, such as the way he lived his life, Islamic history etc.

The Quran was never meant to be all that Muslims had to rely on - otherwise, what was the point of sending a Prophet?

And no it is not at all reasonable to presume that every single detail of the religion should be in the Quran! How long would the Quran be then?? Ten times as long as it is now! How would such a long book ever have the same relevance to Muslims as the Quran does? How would we memorise it, and recite it? The Quran is a book of guidance that can be recited by the young and the old, the common man and the scholar alike. To include every detail of the faith in it would be to change it in such a way that it is no longer the Quran as we know it.

And it seems double madness to adhere to a set of texts which are of questionable origin, accuracy and value just because you follow one set of instructions on how you pray.
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That is just ignorance - we don't follow everything that someone claims is from the Prophet! Hadiths are classified using very strict guidelines - some have been classified as authentic, some as acceptable, some as weak, some as fabricated etc.
 
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Howdy Thinker.

Thinker said:
I put that down to the fact that many of you have been steeped in it so deeply for so long you can’t see the ‘wood for the trees.’
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Or maybe that there is a different menthod of understanding/interpretation going on?

Thinker said:
In fact it would seem reasonable to presume that if He did He would have dictated the detail to Mohammed who would have recorded it in the Qur’an.
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It may seem reasonable to assume many things, but I don't see a more practicle method than the one employed by God. Furthermore, what is reasonable to you or me may have some complications which we have enever and may never imagine(d).

Thinker said:
As an outsider I see nothing wrong in looking at how Mohammed led his life and taking from it whatever appears beneficial but it seems madness to try to copy every detail of how a person lived their life in a world which was massively different than the world we live in.
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I don't think many muslims do try copy every detail, for example, every Muslim whom's house I have visited has a refrigerator, somethingthat Muhammad, sallahu alayhi wa salam, did not have, most Muslims I know have mobile phones or watches, again something Muhammad did not have, some drive cars or/and ride buses, guess what...


Thinker said:
And it seems double madness to adhere to a set of texts which are of questionable origin, accuracy and value just because you follow one set of instructions on how you pray.
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Well I guess the Muslims would argue with you on your presumption that they are texts of 'questionable origin, accuracy and value', maybe you can explain why you feel they are.

Regards,

Eesa.
 
Obey Allah and obey His messenger; but if ye turn away, then the duty of Our messenger is only to convey (the message) plainly. [Quran: 64:12]

The Quran explicity puts obeying Allah and Obeying his messenger together. It does not say follow the messenger but to OBEY.

Thinker said:
to adhere to a set of texts which are of questionable origin, accuracy and value just because you follow one set of instructions on how you pray.
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On the issue of prayer the prophet (saw) said “Pray as you see me praying.”

So no, we cant just do things how we wish when we are taught how to do something a specific way.

The hadith are not of questionable origin, if you even look into the science of collecting and preserving hadith. You will find Islam has a unique system in which narrations of our prophet are recorded. The hadith have then further been classified into various categories of 'strongness'.
 
Brother_Mujahid said:
On the issue of prayer the prophet (saw) said “Pray as you see me praying.”
So no, we cant just do things how we wish when we are taught how to do something a specific way.
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So when someone asked “how shall we pray” and he replied, “pray as you see me praying,” could it not have been simply a helpful suggestion rather than an edict from God. I am sure if you asked any leader of any religion at any point in history, “how should we pray” they would give a specific answer. If the answer includes a state of mind like “before praying rid yourself of any malevolent thoughts” I can see how that might validate or invalidate a prayer but raising your arms or folding your arms etc., that’s just a ceremonial ritual or routine It surely cannot follow that because you follow a different routine the prayer is invalid or of lesser value?
 

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