Personal Encounters with God!

[Nicola]

how did you decide between islam and christianity!
i dont mean to b picky lol but your experience could easily have led to islam as well in my opinion so i wonder what made you choose christianity?
hope that is not an offensive question

Just thinking about this question again...someone wrote something somewhere else on this forum in another thread...
Not to do with my experience...well here goes..he said according to Mohammeds teachings he was the last person who would recieve a message from God...since I've had mine...I've researched alot...and many Muslims also are now beginning to receive messages from Jesus...yet we are all liars?...

http://www.jesusvisions.org/index.shtml

All I can say is I know the truth, I know it was real..and I am not a liar...like all these other people who recieved messages...we really don't need to prove to man..it is between God an us...we know what was placed in our heart and the messeges where true.

So this means any message that come from God to man-kind cannot be accepted in your religion?
and the messages would not be true anyway?

IMO this is totally nonsence because we have so much evidence that different people have been given prophecies and they have come true since the time of Mohammed.

Even Jesus tells us to ask him.. he will give us what we ask for...he will show us things we want to know etc......that would be a message he was giving us wouldn't it?...and I know for a fact Jesus keeps his word...and he will give us these answers and things we ask for.

 

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Greetings Nicole!,Hope your well-

You Said

“So this means any message that come from God to man-kind cannot be accepted in your religion?
and the messages would not be true anyway?”


Inshiallah I would like to address your response in two parts

First of all we Muslim believe that the Holy Quran is the Word of God-where it has been revealed

“Surah Maida 5:116-117

“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): ‘O ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ He will say: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).
117. ‘Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did command me to say: Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).


Surah Nisa 4:157

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

Surah Maryam 19:88-91

They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son


Now if I have an experience like yourself, which you claim to be sacred, and in this experience I am been told the complete opposite to the holy scriptures in the Quran, which do you think would be more rational to follow-

Which do you believe is a more reliable source of Gods divine will, a personal experience which can be interpreted in different ways, or concise, clear evidence like the scriptures, if you believe its the former than why would God in his infinite wisdom decide to reveal his divine will through scriptures and prophets, why not pay a visit to the whole of mankind individually?

The second part is a question to you-

Do you feel your encounter is consistent with the bible- i.e. if in the encounter you have concluded without shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God, then where in the bible does Jesus Say “ I am god, worship me”?

Kind Regards

Qurab

 

[QURBAN]

Inshiallah! i will do some more reasearch into these sacred encounters and share it latern on this thread-

Kind Regards

Qurban!

 

[QURBAN]

another thing, when God revealed his message through a prophet so that he can convey it to the rest of the mankind, do you think everyone accepted him or his message, without some kind of evidence that he was a Prophet, i.e. Miracles-

i see so many faith healers like Benny Hinn, who say things like "last night God visitied me and told me this this and that", "God Spoke to me direct he told me he is the son of God, he is God " etc

whats to say that he is not a fraud?

Kind Regards

Qurban

 

[Nicola]

Now if I have an experience like yourself, which you claim to be sacred, and in this experience I am been told the complete opposite to the holy scriptures in the Quran, which do you think would be more rational to follow-

Yes I do understand that it is totaly opposite to what the Koran teaches...but the Bible teaches the complete opposite to the Koran on this issus also..
Jesus tells us that many people will come to profess the words of God that they are prophets after he has left us in this world..

Jesus tells us we must test these prophets firstly against his own teachings...Jesus gives us complete instrustions how we must do this. To see where these messages are coming from and only except them from God if they follow Jesus teachings as given to us in the Bible..from this we cannot go wrong..but sadly still many people do. Because of Satan twisting Gods words with some of the truth mixed in with lies. Misleading Gods people onto the wrong path.
So bacisly this is how we tell who the message is really from.

Which do you believe is a more reliable source of Gods divine will, a personal experience which can be interpreted in different ways, or concise, clear evidence like the scriptures,

This is why we have Jesus' instruction set out in the Bible and if the evidence you are given acknowlges those scriptures etc then your message is geniune and from God and cannot be misinterpreted...in any other way..
For God is truth and is never misleading and can never lie...only demonic spirits lie to us, and mislead.

Do you feel your encounter is consistent with the bible- i.e. if in the encounter you have concluded without shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God, then where in the bible does Jesus Say “ I am god, worship me”?

Yes my message was consistent with the bible...


John 10
30 I and my Father are one.

For non Christians...and even some Christians they do not understand how the trinity works is made up....for what reason is there an Holy Trinity..
I know the trinity word was made up after the bible...But Jesus gives us so many indications clues of who he actually is...and how God works etc...

For instance the three are not all different Gods...but one God only...that we serve...we do not serve Jesus we do not serve the Holy Spirit only God... God is all three things but He acts in different ways... for instance God gives us the gift of his Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of truth. Who is clearly shown in Genesis 1. It cannot lie...everything it gives us is the truth from God. If we choose to recieve the Holy Spirit we are most definatly only recieving the truth from God...it gives you gifts of revelation about God and revelations that always correspond with the Holy Bible, of Jesus' teachings and it gives nothing of any other Holy book.
It will give revelations truth about other religions though.

People can only ever truly understand the trinity, Holy Bible or what Jesus teaches us..to fully understand the messages he gives us, if they are lead by the Holy Spirit for He alone will teach us, He makes it so clear and easy to understand.

Jesus also tells us that some people will not understand the words he teaches, he tells us he was with God since the very beginning, he gives us an insight to what God is like, what God requires from us..and how to pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to indwell in us.. the Spirit of truth, how to test the spirits firstly..but unforunitly he also tells us some will not fully understand the words (the meanings) he speaks..Jesus also gives the reasons why some do not understand the message from God. There are lots of different reasons.

All the Chrisitians that are being lead by the Holy Spirit fully understand the meanings and the Holy Spirit teaches always teaches the same everytime.

This is how the rest of the Bible was written after Jesus asended back to the Father....and the OT ...The Holy Spirit lead in most of the writings that proceed the gospels..

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit thoughout his ministry the day he became baptisted

 

[Nicola]

another thing, when God revealed his message through a prophet so that he can convey it to the rest of the mankind, do you think everyone accepted him or his message, without some kind of evidence that he was a Prophet, i.e. Miracles-

i see so many faith healers like Benny Hinn, who say things like "last night God visitied me and told me this this and that", "God Spoke to me direct he told me he is the son of God, he is God " etc

whats to say that he is not a fraud?

Kind Regards

Qurban

Good question this is why Jesus gave us instructions to test them..
the Holy Spirit gives many gifts to us..some are healing gifts..some prophecy..

with healing...i've known people be healed from cancer and serious injuries...but not every person is healed.

God does still talk to many people thoughout the OT God always gave warnings when him was going to send his wrath for instance...this is still the case today.
There have always been alot of good prophets out there and still today...

It is something you need to research...we won't find these prophecies on the news or any kind of secular media outlets...there is a reason for this...

The secular world isn't working for God!

 

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to thos who follow the Guidance!

Hi Nicola,

From past experience this types of dialogues does spiral out of control, before we know it, we are exchanging large amount of information, covering broad range of subjects, which does no good to man or beast!

so i hope me and you can just address one issue at a time,

Now i asked you

Do you feel your encounter is consistent with the bible- i.e. if in the encounter you have concluded without shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God, then where in the bible does Jesus Say “ I am god, worship me”?

Your Response was long, i was hoping we can address the one of them at a time!

Yes my message was consistent with the bible...
John 10
30 I and my Father are one.


in what way do you feel that in this verse Jesus (PBUH) was reffering that he was God- i.e. one in essence-
It could easily be interpreted as one is purpose

Kind Regards

Qurban

 

[Nicola]

Hi Nicola,

From past experience this types of dialogues does spiral out of control, before we know it, we are exchanging large amount of information, covering broad range of subjects, which does no good to man or beast!

so i hope me and you can just address one issue at a time,

I agree...I hope so also...sorry I get carried away..your suggestion will be much better...

Now i asked you

Do you feel your encounter is consistent with the bible- i.e. if in the encounter you have concluded without shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God, then where in the bible does Jesus Say “ I am god, worship me”?

Your Response was long, i was hoping we can address the one of them at a time!

Yes my message was consistent with the bible...
John 10
30 I and my Father are one.


in what way do you feel that in this verse Jesus (PBUH) was reffering that he was God- i.e. one in essence-
It could easily be interpreted as one is purpose

Kind Regards

Qurban

I agree that could be interpreted a different way ..but Christians do have many other scriptures to compare God with Jesus with...These are what confirm to Christians that God and Jesus are one of the same....so maybe I should list these down to show here.


They shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
Matthew 1:23

God never changes.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Saviour.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12
God our Saviour. Titus 2:10
...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10
God my Saviour. Luke 1:47

Jesus is the only Saviour.
...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18
...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42
...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12
...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10
...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
-- Heb 2:10
[Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
-- Heb 5:9

God created the universe and earth by Himself.

I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.

Unto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10

By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3

God is the Word.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1

Jesus is the Word.
...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14

God is the first and the last.

I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

God forgives sins.

The Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3
Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

God is our redeemer.
Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16

Jesus redeemed us.
The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14

God is one.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus and God are one.
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

God has a Son.

The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7

Jesus is God's Son.
[Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18

God is the Holy One

Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)

Jesus is the Holy One.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Only God is worshipped.
... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10


Jesus is worshipped.
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18

And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6

And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

God is Messiah.

...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6

Jesus is Messiah.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26

God is from everlasting.

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2

Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2

Only God is glorified.

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8


God glorified Jesus.


And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

God is 'I am'.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14

Jesus is 'I am'.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

God heals all diseases.

Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2


Jesus heals all diseases.

Jesus healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16

God is the Judge of the whole earth.

O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2

Abraham to God...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25

Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.

The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22

God has life in Himself.

The Father hath life in himself; John 5:26

Jesus has life in Himself.

so hath God given to the Son to have life in himself;

In Jesus was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

God raises the dead.
[T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.

The Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21
(Makes alive)

Long post again...lol sorry
But there is no need to go into debate details etc...about my post concerning all this I just thought it was important for you to see why we Christians believe that God and Jesus are one of the same essence..that it really isn't just because of a couple of scriptures..there are more but I think this is long enough..lol

and your question was one about misinterpating what Jesus said..about the Father and I are one.


Nic

God Bless

 

[------]

I didn't go into that much detail of my encounter because I didn't want to offend people here either..
The reason I choose Chrisianity..because there really is no choice...firstly you know in your heart as soon as his presence came, I knew..the whole truth is comes so clearlyand also.. I was able to ask questions and I did.

Before my encounter I'd never owned a Bible only knew a few stories from school..I didn't know if they where true or not and I didn't know a thing about the Koran.

So what if u had known about the Qur'an? Would that have made you think a lot more?

 

[Nicola]

So what if u had known about the Qur'an? Would that have made you think a lot more?

Some of the things, that I was being told about and also shown me in visions..

These things I was instructed to seek and learn these things out for myself, In that way I would know that I was being told the truth...this not only included Islam but also the state of the Christian Church all to do with Gods anger.

Somethings where things to do with the future which I can not learn.

 

[renak]

No just ask him for the truth and he will give it.

Do you think that God will provide the truth to each of us, but our own personal experiences and cultural influences will direct us to different religions? For example, if he provided the truth to a person in Tennessee, they would have a greater chance of experiencing the truth via Christianity. However, if he provided the truth to someone in Syria, they would have a greater chance of experiencing the truth via Islam?

 

[Nicola]

Do you think that God will provide the truth to each of us, but our own personal experiences and cultural influences will direct us to different religions? For example, if he provided the truth to a person in Tennessee, they would have a greater chance of experiencing the truth via Christianity. However, if he provided the truth to someone in Syria, they would have a greater chance of experiencing the truth via Islam?

I have thought about that myself but

From what I am hearing about and also reading about...many many Muslims in the Middle East amd East and other non Christians are receiving visions from Jesus...

It tells us many times about the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit to come in Joel for instance.

Joel 2:28-32
28Then afterwards I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions

29Even on the male and female slaves, in those days, I will pour out my spirit

Daniel 12:4,9).
4But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end. Many shall be running back and forth, and evilc shall increase."
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and two others appeared, one standing on this bank of the stream and one on the other.
6One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was upstream, "How long shall it be until the end of these wonders?"
7The man clothed in linen, who was upstream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven. And I heard him swear by the one who lives forever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time,d and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things would be accomplished.
8 I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?"
9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end.
10Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked shall continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

I believe this outpouring as began.

 

[QURBAN]

I agree...I hope so also...sorry I get carried away..your suggestion will be much better...

No need to apologise, you were just putting forward your evidence to support your case- I have to done it the past before, I am glad you understand that it will be better to address them on at a time- I will read through your response soon and try an compile a response to it,

Thank you for your patience

Kind Regards

Qurban

 

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance

Hi Nicole- Hope your OK

First of all, you agree that the first one can be interpreted as Jesus and God are one in purpose and not in essence, to me its quite clear that he is referring oneness in purpose- if not then his disciples can also be classified as GOD-

You see if you read John 10:30 in context specially the next six verses you will find Jesus explaining that his enemies were wrong to think that he was claiming to be God. What Jesus obviously means here is that he is one with the Father in purpose. Jesus also prayed that his disciples should be one just as Jesus and the Father are one. Obviously, he was not praying that all his disciples should somehow merge into one individual (see John 17:11 and 22).

17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

17:22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


And when Luke reports that the disciples were all one, Luke does not mean that they became one single human being, but that they shared a common purpose although they were separate beings (see Acts 4:32). In terms of essence, Jesus and the Father are two, for Jesus said they are two witnesses (John 8:14-18). They have to be two, since one is greater than the other (see John 14:28).

14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Would you like to discuss these further before we move on?

Kind Regards

Qurban

 

[Nicola]

Hiya Qurban


I missed your post sorry, just came across it.

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

First of all, you agree that the first one can be interpreted as Jesus and God are one in purpose and not in essence, to me its quite clear that he is referring oneness in purpose- if not then his disciples can also be classified as GOD-

You see if you read John 10:30 in context specially the next six verses you will find Jesus explaining that his enemies were wrong to think that he was claiming to be God. What Jesus obviously means here is that he is one with the Father in purpose. Jesus also prayed that his disciples should be one just as Jesus and the Father are one. Obviously, he was not praying that all his disciples should somehow merge into one individual (see John 17:11 and 22).

You are correct in your understanding...all born again-Christians are one.
We all have the same purpose but that would be impossible without the Spirit of God indwelling in us making us Christ-like.

Joh 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Joh 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,


But in the case of Jesus and God...Jesus is God+word =turned into human flesh. You could look at it your way of..(One in purpose) but usally when we are one in purpose...they are differences even if small ones...but God+word would have no differences whats so ever...

Gods purpose for turning his word into flesh..was to come to his people, to show how He really wanted us to behave to one another and that was love each other..and how we must worship the Father, how we should live our life and that would lead to spending eternity in heaven with the Father..

God being the only sinless one...his word is also sinless. Jesus
So Gods word in (flesh) became the only sacrifice that could possiblely pay for our sins.

And when Luke reports that the disciples were all one, Luke does not mean that they became one single human being, but that they shared a common purpose although they were separate beings (see Acts 4:32). In terms of essence, Jesus and the Father are two, for Jesus said they are two witnesses (John 8:14-18). They have to be two, since one is greater than the other (see John 14:28).
14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

I believe God is one in essence and three in person. each distinct Persons, each Person is fully God, there is only one God.
One being God
One being Gods Spirit
One being Gods word Jesus.

I believe God is the greatest also, but his Spirit and Word(Jesus) are parts of God.





Would you like to discuss these further before we move on?

Kind Regards

Qurban

Sorry again for missing your post

 

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace To Those Who Follow The Guidance!

Greeting Nicola!

No need to apologise, thanks for getting back to me!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:1

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

One of the Christian members in another forum put forward the following he said is the Greek version of John 1:1and the term used to describe God is highlighted and underlined.

᾿Εν ἀρχῇἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.


But if you look at it carefully the underline scriptures, you will see that the words used to describe God are of two different Kinds-

one is Θεόν and the other is Θεὸς

The First time the word God is used in the verse John 1:1 is the definite form hotheos, meaning ‘The God’.

However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form tontheos which means ‘a god’

Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

But if you insist that the indefinite form tontheos to be the main God, then that would mean that you have two Gods- for example

3-“and the Word was God”--- this means, you take Word to be the definite form of God (Word = GOD)

Now if you substitute Word with GOD and apply it to the previous two verses for example….

1- In the beginning was the Word,
2- and the Word was with God,

You get

In the beginning was the GOD
And the GOD was with GOD

GOD was with GOD… clearly shows that there are two Gods,

You see in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ (god in the indefinite form i.e. a god)
is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4,

“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.”

Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1,

“And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

So if you insist that the indefinite form of god (a god) to be The God, then you will have to accept the Devil to be God- and also Moses (PBUH)- which is impossible-

Going back to the initial topic we were discussing, (how your personal encounter with God is consistent with the scriptures of the bible)

You have kindly put forward several verses from the bible to support your case- the first one we were discussing was John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”, which you agree can be interpreted as one in purpose and not in essence, otherwise we will have to agree that his disciples are one in essence with God as well-

I agree that we need to look at the evidence collectively before we reach a conclusion, but we also need to examine them properly- the next one on the list of verses you have put forward was to prove the divinity of Jesus was

God Never Changes
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus Never Changes
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Can I ask you what is your understanding of the phrase God never changes- in what respect does god does not change, what qualifies as a change?

Looking forward to your response!

Kind regards

Qurban

 

[Nicola]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!


Peace To Those Who Follow The Guidance!

Greeting Nicola!

No need to apologise, thanks for getting back to me!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:1

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

One of the Christian members in another forum put forward the following he said is the Greek version of John 1:1and the term used to describe God is highlighted and underlined.

᾿Εν ἀρχῇἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.


But if you look at it carefully the underline scriptures, you will see that the words used to describe God are of two different Kinds-

one is Θεόν and the other is Θεὸς

The First time the word God is used in the verse John 1:1 is the definite form hotheos, meaning ‘The God’.

However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form tontheos which means ‘a god’

Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

But if you insist that the indefinite form tontheos to be the main God, then that would mean that you have two Gods- for example

3-“and the Word was God”--- this means, you take Word to be the definite form of God (Word = GOD)

Now if you substitute Word with GOD and apply it to the previous two verses for example….

1- In the beginning was the Word,
2- and the Word was with God,

You get

In the beginning was the GOD
And the GOD was with GOD

GOD was with GOD… clearly shows that there are two Gods,

You see in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ (god in the indefinite form i.e. a god)
is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4,

“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.”

Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1,

“And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”

So if you insist that the indefinite form of god (a god) to be The God, then you will have to accept the Devil to be God- and also Moses (PBUH)- which is impossible-

Very interesting...I don't understand greek but would enjoy doing some searching on this..
i've been looking so far I've found a little bit I'm reading...do you still have the link (forum) where this Chrisitan man wrote this at all...is this Christian Greek or did he find it?

about different gods...I believe their is only one true Almighty Holy God but there are many gods...
for Gods first commandment is
I am the Lord thy God ,
who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt (Mizrahim), out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt not have any other gods besides me.

Going back to the initial topic we were discussing, (how your personal encounter with God is consistent with the scriptures of the bible)

You have kindly put forward several verses from the bible to support your case- the first one we were discussing was John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”, which you agree can be interpreted as one in purpose and not in essence, otherwise we will have to agree that his disciples are one in essence with God as well-

I should say my encounter wasn't exactly going through scriptures of the Bible with Jesus..At that time I didn't know the Bible except Jesus was born in a stable by Virgin Mary the cross etc...But I didn't understand any of it..My experience was more to do with Jesus telling me which was the right path, how I should lead my life, not to worry about money and material things..because what was to come was far better...i do not have words to describe..how it is going to feel...but I felt it! Also I was told about Gods anger at certain (peoples) also including the church, and was told to seek for myself...about the True Word of God and that it is not being preached today in some churches...I was told about his love for all people..and some things of the future that is to come.

I began studying the Bible and visiting Churches..and did infact find out that the churches I visited where not teaching the words of God, but there own words...they every so slighty changed Gods words..but now I can understand, what I was been told to go out and seek....after 16 months of going to these Churches...I was called out...for 4 weeks I ignored the calling I was receiving...and I found a true Christian Church...one where I attend now. I am still studying that will never end...because the more I study the more the Holy Spirit is opening up my eyes to truths about God and his word.
God will only show things when he thinks you are ready.

I agree that we need to look at the evidence collectively before we reach a conclusion, but we also need to examine them properly- the next one on the list of verses you have put forward was to prove the divinity of Jesus was

God Never Changes
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus Never Changes
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Can I ask you what is your understanding of the phrase God never changes- in what respect does god does not change, what qualifies as a change?

Looking forward to your response!

Kind regards

Qurban

Hard to express really, something or someone who never changes...is someone you can rely on because you know where you stand.
In terms of God..a couple of examples I would say..his laws for me today are the same they where when he gave them to Moses. If we follow these 10 commandments Jesus said "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." ..so the other 9 commandments are covered with just 1 law of loving our neighbor. No change there.

God aked for blood for the atonement for sin in the OT in the NT he still used blood atonement for sin...with Jesus


God Bless
nic

 

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to Thos Who Follow The Guidance!

Greetings Nicola

First of – here are the links that you have requested

The Forum Link = http://www.churchoftheholytrinity.org/forums/apologetics/4967-alah-christian-god-same-god.html

Also check out http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B43C001.htm

Now inshiallah moving onto the subject.... the second evidence you put forward to support the divinity of Jesus (PBUH) was comparing Jesus with the immutable nature of God-

God Never Changes

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus Never Changes

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

i dont feel Hebrew 13:8 its not a strong enough evidence to prove the divinity of Jesus (PBUH) as you said yourself, you understanding of immutable nature of God is

“Hard to express really, something or someone who never changes...is someone you can rely on because you know where you stand”

The Jews could have said the same about Moses (PBUH), same for the Muslim with Muhammad (PBUH)..

But I am sure we both can agree that they were not God!

Again Hebrews 13:8 could mean that he never changes in his purpose! conistance in his teachings etc...

looking forward to your response!

Kind Regards

Qurban

 

[Nicola]

Thanks for the links

God Never ChangesMalachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus Never ChangesHebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

i dont feel Hebrew 13:8 its not a strong enough evidence to prove the divinity of Jesus (PBUH) as you said yourself, you understanding of immutable nature of God is

The scriptures I gave you are really has a whole ...When we break them down each one at a time...and say there really isn't enough evidence with just this one verse, well I'd agree, I don't believe that would give enough evidence for anyone at all..but all together that is difference..there is much evidence supporting Jesus' sovernity


The Jews could have said the same about Moses (PBUH), same for the Muslim with Muhammad (PBUH)..

But they didn't because it wouldn't have been true in either case. See Christians believe only Jesus was ever sinless from the beginning...no other human ever was..
Where Muslim I believe...believe all prophets where sinless? We have no evidence to support this fact. for instance Moses murdered someone..that would make him far from sinless..But I believe again..Muslims believe these history stories of the prophets in the Bible are lies..to boost Jesus' image up...yet these scripts of the OT where written way because Jesus was born.
Why would Jewish leaders want to do that?

But I am sure we both can agree that they were not God!

God no... but god it's possible some people would worship these men, whether they believe they are or not...and God does tell us their are other gods.

Again Hebrews 13:8 could mean that he never changes in his purpose! conistance in his teachings etc...

It means never changes in any area.


Gods purpose, ways, never change either though does it?...not in the Bible at least,..and neither does Jesus' ways or purpose change he wants the same.

Gods main purpose is to bring people to salvation and Jesus' is the same.


Peace
nic

 

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace To Those Who Follow The Guidance!

Greetings Nicole

The scriptures I gave you are really has a whole ...When we break them down each one at a time...and say there really isn't enough evidence with just this one verse, well I'd agree, I don't believe that would give enough evidence for anyone at all..but all together that is difference..there is much evidence supporting Jesus' sovernity

You agree that if you look at it individually it’s not conclusive-
But if you study it collectively your saying that it proves that the Jesus = God

unfortunatley this causes contradictions in the bible- as God is All Powerful, infinite in Wisdom and is All Good-

John 5:30 contradicts 1 Chronicles 29.11, Matthew 19.26 and Luke 1.37.

Mark 13:31-32 and Mark 11:12-13 Contradicts Psalm 147.5, Psalm 104.24, Acts 15.18, Hebrews 4.13 and Romans 11.33.

And Finally Luke 18:18-19 Contradicts Psalm 33.5 and Psalm 136.1.

I have discussed this on another thread, on this forum, also on another forum for which I have given you links to earlier-

Just to give you 1 example..

Mark 11:12-13

“The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.”


1-He went to find out- which means he did not know if the tree had any fruits, hence not all-knowing

2-When he reached it he found nothing but leaves- basically he learnt, hence it contradicts infinite wisdom

With God….

“With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read)."

Holy Quran 6:59

Kind Regards

Qurban

PS - Do you know where i can find a list of all the things Jesus (PBUH) himself has said in the Bible, kind of like a red letter edition of the bible, where everything Jesus (PBUH) has said is highlighted... anything available on the internet?

:thankyou: