Police raids target 'terror plot' in UK

[Keltoi]

According to news I've heard, the plot involved kidnapping an active duty British soldier and torturing and beheading him on videotape for release on the internet. Disgusting plot indeed. With all the details coming out about this, I would say the evidence is probably there. We'll see what happens.

 

[FBI]

We all know what happend to the 'Boy who cried wolf'.

 

[Keltoi]

We all know what happend to the 'Boy who cried wolf'.

We also know what happened when they didn't listen....

 

[Malaikah]

According to news I've heard, the plot involved kidnapping an active duty British soldier and torturing and beheading him on videotape for release on the internet. Disgusting plot indeed. With all the details coming out about this, I would say the evidence is probably there. We'll see what happens.

Disgusting, yes. But I wonder, if the people involved weren't Muslims, would this ever have made international news, or even been labelled as a terrorist plot?

Typically it would have just been called murder or something...

That is assuming it is true anyway.

 

[Cognescenti]

Disgusting, yes. But I wonder, if the people involved weren't Muslims, would this ever have made international news, or even been labelled as a terrorist plot?

Typically it would have just been called murder or something...

That is assuming it is true anyway.

You do have a point there Malaikah. Where I come from kidnap/beheadings are way, way up this year. Heck, a car chase gets live helicopter feeds and breathless commentary from newscasters, but really, when was the last time you heard a news agency cover a Mormon kidnap/beheading story? Its media bias, pure and simple.

 

[Malaikah]

Are you being sarcastic? ^o)

I'm not British- I live half way across the world and yet the news here is talking about a beheading attempt all the way over in the UK, calling it a terrorist attack, whereas we have horrible murders happening in our own backyard, in fact an elderly man was behead in his own house a few weeks ago, and yet they never get labelled as terrorist attacks, and I doubt that they make international headlines either.

 

[Cognescenti]

....snip....

i.e same as theo van gogh, permissable for the muslims as a whole to kill him? yes according to scholars who have said the one who insults Allah and his messenger like he did.

but permissable for the moroccan immigrant that did it? obviously most scholars gonna say no because he was an immigrant to netherlands so should have stuck to the covenant even if the nation in question breaks the covenant first.

Abu Abdullah

Dawud;

Am I missing something? Was Theo Van Gough Muslim? Are you talking about a retrospective "religious ruling" on Van Gough's murder or are you talking about some fatwa issued beforehand?

I can at least understand a scintilla of justification if he had converted to Islam as an adult and then went against the faith, but someone is going to have to explain to me how one could possibly justify his murder for insulting a faith he did not ascribe to.

I am genuinely interested in your answer. No kidding.

 

[Bittersteel]

I am confused.who was to be murdered?a cultural non-practicing Muslim or a recent convert and apostate.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Dawud;

Am I missing something? Was Theo Van Gough Muslim? Are you talking about a retrospective "religious ruling" on Van Gough's murder or are you talking about some fatwa issued beforehand?

I can at least understand a scintilla of justification if he had converted to Islam as an adult and then went against the faith, but someone is going to have to explain to me how one could possibly justify his murder for insulting a faith he did not ascribe to.

I am genuinely interested in your answer. No kidding.

no he wasnt a muslim.

someone may disagree with islam, but in the time of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) people disagreed with God's messenger (pbuh) all the time but when they are very insulting then yes it is permissable according to the scholars of islam to kill that person as the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) send mujahadeen to kill certain individuals at that time for insulting him and lying against him.

Abu Abdullah

 

[Malaikah]

the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) send mujahadeen to kill certain individuals at that time for insulting him and lying against him.

Can you be more specific please? The case I remember, he wasn't only insulting him, he was being extremely insulting in a very public way and was trying to start a war between the kuffar and the Muslim, right?:?

 

[Dawud_uk]

Can you be more specific please? The case I remember, he wasn't only insulting him, he was being extremely insulting in a very public way and was trying to start a war between the kuffar and the Muslim, right?:?

assalaamu alaykum sister,

i do not believe the ruling is that specific, please check with the scholars but from what i have read if someone is being very insulting such as theo van gogh then it is allowable for an amir to send a mujahid to kill him and i have never read about the issue of trying to start a war, that may be one scholars particular understanding that you have read.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

when people enter islam they enter understanding what is required of them and they should enter knowing the view of islam if they ever leave. The rule in islam is to first be gentle and try to revert an apostate back to islam, thats the mercy, then its to kill them if they still refuse, thats the punishment.

Also what must go through a muslims head for him to help the government at a time like this when it seems as though the whole world is against muslims!

 

[Dawud_uk]

here is a letter i am sending into the papers today, insha'allah for inclusion in their letters from readers section which is a good way for us to get our message across.

Dear Editor,

Regarding the so called ‘Muslim soldier’ the alleged Birmingham terror suspects were said to be plotting to kidnap and kill – if it is true he has served in the British Army in Afghanistan then he has committed an act of apostasy and as such I hope he repents to God sincerely because his actions in fighting against his brothers are the actions of a disbeliever.

But as Muslims living in Britain most Islamic Scholars will tell us we have to live by the laws of the land and cannot take matters into our own hands. So we should encourage this man’s wife and children to leave him as his marriage would be a sham and no longer be valid in Islam, others should boycott him other than to warn him he has committed clear acts of apostasy in siding with the disbelievers and fighting against Islam.

Whether this plot turns out to be true or not I hope that a little good may come out of this if it forces other Muslims who were thinking of joining the army to think again and value their faith over and above love for this country and to value the pleasure of God over a pay cheque in the army.

Daw’ud *********,
Sheffield, UK

 

[Keltoi]

when people enter islam they enter understanding what is required of them and they should enter knowing the view of islam if they ever leave. The rule in islam is to first be gentle and try to revert an apostate back to islam, thats the mercy, then its to kill them if they still refuse, thats the punishment.

Also what must go through a muslims head for him to help the government at a time like this when it seems as though the whole world is against muslims!

I find that to be disturbing.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I find that to be disturbing.

i guess it would be better to understand in the national way. imagine a person who dedicated himself to his country, then he goes against his country and helps to kill the women and children of the country he once swore to defend.

What do you think this man deserves?

 

[Keltoi]

i guess it would be better to understand in the national way. imagine a person who dedicated himself to his country, then he goes against his country and helps to kill the women and children of the country he once swore to defend.

What do you think this man deserves?

It isn't a good analogy because he is actually serving his country. Islam isn't a nation its a religion. I know many Muslims like to equate the whole of Islam as a nation-like entity, but the United Kingdom is not a Muslim nation. If Muslims want to create a nation where they kill each other for not being Muslim enough that is okay for them I guess, but that is hardly some kind of justification for this act. I'm not saying you were justifying the motivation behind this.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

It isn't a good analogy because he is actually serving his country. Islam isn't a nation its a religion. I know many Muslims like to equate the whole of Islam as a nation-like entity, but the United Kingdom is not a Muslim nation. If Muslims want to create a nation where they kill each other for not being Muslim enough that is okay for them I guess, but that is hardly some kind of justification for this act. I'm not saying you were justifying the motivation behind this.

it doesnt matter which country we belong to for muslims, as long as we accept islam as our faith we are suppose to act as one group.

i guess you just wont understand it...

 

[Keltoi]

it doesnt matter which country we belong to for muslims, as long as we accept islam as our faith we are suppose to act as one group.

i guess you just wont understand it...

No, I don't. If you immigrate to a non-Muslim country you accept the laws of that country. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it is a social contract. Doesn't mean you can't be Muslim, as I suspect the first generation of Muslim immigrants would never have considered such a thing justifiable. In any event, it is against British law to murder people. They're old fashioned that way.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No, I don't. If you immigrate to a non-Muslim country you accept the laws of that country. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, it is a social contract. Doesn't mean you can't be Muslim, as I suspect the first generation of Muslim immigrants would never have considered such a thing justifiable. In any event, it is against British law to murder people. They're old fashioned that way.

the british muslim soldier didnt HAVE to fight in the army did he? he chose to do that. If the law was enforced on him that would be different. He would be forced under oppression and we could forgive that!

 

[Malaikah]

Keltoi, you totally missed the point that execution must be done by the Islamic state.

Obviously it doesn't apply in Britain!