Police raids target 'terror plot' in UK

[Cognescenti]

Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, a successor and companion of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) allowed an old jewish man freedom from paying jizya because he was too old and too poor to pay the jizya. He said similar about other old, poor non muslims living in the islamic state. Yet they were still under muslim protection.


Peace.

Fi_Sabilillah;


You do seem like the peacemaker. Good to speak with you. I wonder what would happen to the same poor, old Jewish man were he to be wandering around Medina or Mecca today?

Speaking of tolerance of other religions in an Islamic state...are you aware that US military chaplains accompanying US Army and Marine troops to Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War, in order to save one Islamic state from their murdering bretheren. were required to remove their symbols indicating their Jewish or Christian faith from the lapels of their uniforms?

We might also want to talk about the Chaldeans under SH or the few Jews foolish enough to stay in Iran. Or we could talk about the Pope's friendly reception in Turkey.

It seems the dictates of the Quran are not universally applied.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Right. I understand the theological concept of "submission". In fact, it is not entirely unique to Islam, but is perhaps more central in Islamic thought.

But, the problem here is really a catch-22. If a non Muslim is troubled by what appears to be a somewhat arbitrary system for issuing death edicts from thousands of miles away by a person whom he has never met and whom would likely not accept his protestations in the unlikely event that they were to meet he need only "submit" to the religion which he finds troubling in the first place and everything will be fine???:uuh:

Saying that a believer must not question is one thing (a mistake if you ask me but at least understandible as there was apparentlya voluntary acceptance of the religion)...saying that a non-believer may not question is quite another.

I can understand economic boycott or shunning or even social shame directed towards an odious critic, but murder??? Note that the Catholic Church engaged in Heresy trials 500-600 yrs ago. It didn't stop Calvin or Luther or other reformers and now is a serious embarrassment.

questioning is fine, questioning is good as it shows enthusiasm to learn what we dont like is jumped up fat failures of humanity continually making remarks like referring to all Muslims as XXXXXXXX in national dutch daily newspapers and making fun of Allah and his messenger saws. we get a bit touchy about that sort of stuff.

even for muslims islam allows a lot of leeway before takfir, a declaration of someone being non muslim is made by the scholars. this is very rare.

Abu Abdullah

 

[Dawud_uk]

Dawud;

But virtually nobody in the West, except perhaps a very small literary crowd, ever heard of Rushdie before the issuance of a fatwa against him. As far as I can tell from interviews, the guy is an insufferable pedant and I don't think I would read one of his books if I were stuck on a desert isle for 30 years. Before 9-11, it was funny, and it was hard to have any sympathy for the guy. Of course, it isn't funny any more, but I don't think the West is learning the lesson you want them to learn. You can't condone such idiocy as the murder of Van Gough and, at the same time complain when MI5 starts looking for a terrorist in every mosque. The Dutch were a bastion of multi-culturism. Not any more. If Islamic hard-liners push the Western Europeans hard enough, you will have a crop of leaders that make Bush look like a peacenik.

A good example was the recent Danish production of a Mozart opera which was cancelled because of Muslim opposition to the depiction of the Prophet. Those cancelling the performance were labled as cowards and back it comes.

It might be good to counsel restraint before you have 600 million people in charge of 3/4 of the world economy mad at you. I don't think anything good will come of it. Better would be a western-style campaign of education. In general, human beings don't purposely offend other human beings if the offended party can communciate what they find offensive without the use of a death threat.

i believe the mozart production was in germany not denmark, and the depiction of the heads of Mohammad, Jesus (peace be upon them both), as well as posiden and budha are late additions to the opera made only in the 1980's i believe and seem more about stiring a sensationalist response than anything else.

Abu Abdullah

 

[- Qatada -]

It seems the dictates of the Quran are not universally applied.

That's the problem, we don't have no islamic state in the world today. No country in the muslim world runs fully according to the way of the Messenger of Allaah or his companions. That's why we see all the corruption in the muslim world today.

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:​

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.



Peace.


​

 

[Cognescenti]

questioning is fine, questioning is good as it shows enthusiasm to learn what we dont like is jumped up fat failures of humanity continually making remarks like referring to all Muslims as XXXXXXXX in national dutch daily newspapers and making fun of Allah and his messenger saws. we get a bit touchy about that sort of stuff.

even for muslims islam allows a lot of leeway before takfir, a declaration of someone being non muslim is made by the scholars. this is very rare.

Abu Abdullah

Right. I can understand the anger, but he was living in a more permissive society. Muslims living in the Netherlands need to be a bit more thick-skinned if they are to live there. Other than perhaps making you feel good in the short term...nothing has been accomplished. Unless he had caused directly or incited others to physically harm Muslims, then I can see no moral jsutification for takfir.

 

[Cognescenti]

That's the problem, we don't have no islamic state in the world today. No country in the muslim world runs fully according to the way of the Messenger of Allaah or his companions. That's why we see all the corruption in the muslim world today.

Well....fix that, would you? :happy:

 

[Muezzin]

Yeah, anyway, can we get back to the matter at hand please? Thanks.

 

[England]

It is not a war against Islam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


'Key Part Of Armed Forces'
Updated: 15:50, Wednesday January 31, 2007
The intended victim of the alleged kidnap and beheading terror plot in the UK was reportedly a British Muslim soldier.

Jabron Hashmi: 'A Hero'

Muslims account for a small but significant part of Britain's armed forces.

There are 330 altogether, 250 of them in the Army, according to the Ministry of Defence.

With just over 180,000 personnel in the armed forces, it means they make up less than 0.2% of the total.

But they are nonetheless cited as proof the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not specifically against Islam.

Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi, who died in Afghanistan last July, was the first British Muslim soldier to be killed in the "war on terror".


His family said he had hoped to use his Islamic background to foster greater understanding in the Army.

His uncle, Mohammed Javed, said his nephew was a "hero of Islam, Pakistan, Britain and the international community".

Dozens of Pakistani tribesmen attended a service for L/Cpl Hashmi in the north-western city of Peshawar, where he was born.

The highest-ranking Muslim officer is currently Pakistan-born Royal Navy Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain.

When appointed last August, he said: "The whole fabric of our country relies on us all doing what we're meant to do.

"If you disagree with foreign policy then there is an obvious route to voice your concerns.

"You can demonstrate, write to your MP, write to the media... but it's in the political and media domain where this can be taken forward."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,15410-1249703,00.html

 

[Cognescenti]

Yeah, anyway, can we get back to the matter at hand please? Thanks.

Yes sir. I susect you are referring to me. I am sorry for the short detour conversation with Fi_Sabilillah, who seems like a very sensible chap, and, in fact, seems to be able to teach things to non Muslims in a very non-threatening way. You can understand my confusion as he is a "super-moderator" which implies some type of hierarchy to me.

An any event, as you say, back to the matter at hand.


The prevailing feeling seems to be the whole matter has been cooked up by some racial-profiling cabal at Scotland Yard. That is good enough for me. The very idea that a bunch of hotheads would want to punish a wayward brother is so preposterous as to be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Right. I can understand the anger, but he was living in a more permissive society. Muslims living in the Netherlands need to be a bit more thick-skinned if they are to live there. Other than perhaps making you feel good in the short term...nothing has been accomplished. Unless he had caused directly or incited others to physically harm Muslims, then I can see no moral jsutification for takfir.

i think you misunderstand,

takfir is something that is only ever done on a muslim, the rest of you are already disbelievers so why need a scholar to declare it?

and i agree it was incorrect for the person who killed him to have done it. but the teachings of islam are clear on the principle here and it is the means that were incorrect.

Abu Abdullah

 

[Dawud_uk]

It is not a war against Islam.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


'Key Part Of Armed Forces'
Updated: 15:50, Wednesday January 31, 2007
The intended victim of the alleged kidnap and beheading terror plot in the UK was reportedly a British Muslim soldier.

Jabron Hashmi: 'A Hero'

Muslims account for a small but significant part of Britain's armed forces.

There are 330 altogether, 250 of them in the Army, according to the Ministry of Defence.

With just over 180,000 personnel in the armed forces, it means they make up less than 0.2% of the total.

But they are nonetheless cited as proof the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not specifically against Islam.

Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi, who died in Afghanistan last July, was the first British Muslim soldier to be killed in the "war on terror".


His family said he had hoped to use his Islamic background to foster greater understanding in the Army.

His uncle, Mohammed Javed, said his nephew was a "hero of Islam, Pakistan, Britain and the international community".

Dozens of Pakistani tribesmen attended a service for L/Cpl Hashmi in the north-western city of Peshawar, where he was born.

The highest-ranking Muslim officer is currently Pakistan-born Royal Navy Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain.

When appointed last August, he said: "The whole fabric of our country relies on us all doing what we're meant to do.

"If you disagree with foreign policy then there is an obvious route to voice your concerns.

"You can demonstrate, write to your MP, write to the media... but it's in the political and media domain where this can be taken forward."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,15410-1249703,00.html

i think it was really bad when a 'muslim' soldier dies fighting his brothers and sisters in afghanistan and other places because he has aposticated and left his faith in principle also.

hence why it is important that a message needs to go out discouraging as many people as possible from following that example, they are not heroes but apostates.

Abu Abdullah

 

[Keltoi]

Perhaps this soldier believes people like the Taliban are apostates. His opinion is just as valid as yours.

 

[MTAFFI]

i think it was really bad when a 'muslim' soldier dies fighting his brothers and sisters in afghanistan and other places because he has aposticated and left his faith in principle also.

hence why it is important that a message needs to go out discouraging as many people as possible from following that example, they are not heroes but apostates.

Abu Abdullah

it is funny you say that, if you were in Iraq who would you fight the Shi'a or the Sunni? Either way it is a Muslim brother or sister, right? So who is the apostate? If you want my opinion, none of them are any good, which might be why this man went to fight, to try and preserve whatever decent perception of Islam there is left, and show that not all Muslims are bad or hate all of the "Kuffar". Personally I have a lot of respect for this man and I am sure that Allah or God or whatever you want to call him does as well

 

[Dawud_uk]

it is funny you say that, if you were in Iraq who would you fight the Shi'a or the Sunni? Either way it is a Muslim brother or sister, right? So who is the apostate? If you want my opinion, none of them are any good, which might be why this man went to fight, to try and preserve whatever decent perception of Islam there is left, and show that not all Muslims are bad or hate all of the "Kuffar". Personally I have a lot of respect for this man and I am sure that Allah or God or whatever you want to call him does as well

i would fight for the islam, against the kuffar who comes and takes muslim lands, lives and honour

and also against those who aid them, fight for them, those people who love innovations and blind obedience to men whose only qualification is the blood that runs through their veins.

check the Quran, i am not going to debate islamic law and docterine with you because you are coming from a position of not knowing, but if you check the Quran you will see there are verses which condemn this man but here are some of them...

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). (Quran 5:57)

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (Quran 5:51)

there are other simular verses, as well as many sayings of the prophet Muhammad (saws) that show that a person who sides with the disbelievers against the believers is from them and not from the believers.

May Allah swt guide us, strengthen us and remove from our hearts the weaknesses that make us turn to the disbelievers against our brothers and sisters.

Abu Abdullah

 

[SilentObserver]

i would fight for the islam, against the kuffar who comes and takes muslim lands, lives and honour

It's funny, because there are some in the UK that say they would fight for Britain against the muslim who comes and takes british lands, lives and culture.

 

[Dawud_uk]

It's funny, because there are some in the UK that say they would fight for Britain against the muslim who comes and takes british lands, lives and culture.

silent observer,

i would ask you to stop looking at this emotionally, look at the docterine of islam, what does islam say about the person who sides against the muslims with the disbelievers?

there is your answer on whether this person was right to do this in islam, if you agree according to islam what he did is wrong then it therefore follows that what he was doing was coming from outside the teachings of islam?

Abu Abdullah

 

[SilentObserver]

silent observer,

i would ask you to stop looking at this emotionally, look at the docterine of islam, what does islam say about the person who sides against the muslims with the disbelievers?

there is your answer on whether this person was right to do this in islam, if you agree according to islam what he did is wrong then it therefore follows that what he was doing was coming from outside the teachings of islam?

Abu Abdullah

No emotion involved for me, that is the truth. I personally do not believe that islam is correct, so this means little to me. The post about the muslim british solider I found to be arrogant on your part. Who are you to judge and think you know his intentions?

 

[Dawud_uk]

No emotion involved for me, that is the truth. I personally do not believe that islam is correct, so this means little to me. The post about the muslim british solider I found to be arrogant on your part. Who are you to judge and think you know his intentions?

a muslim who fights for the kuffar against his brothers is in principle an apostate and with all the rulings on that.

what i am saying is the islamic position on this issue, no muslim here has really been able to disagree because they would be on shaky ground if they tried.

so if what he has done is not correct according to islamic law and docterine then what he is doing is from outside islam but you argued he could still be a good muslim and i shouldnt judge but all i have stated is the islamic position.

Abu Abdullah

 

[SilentObserver]

a muslim who fights for the kuffar against his brothers is in principle an apostate and with all the rulings on that.

So then Dawud_uk is of the opinion that the members of Hamas and Fatah are apostates. All the shhia and sunnis fighting against each other in Iraq, apostates too. Darfur fighters, all apostates.

 

[Dawud_uk]

So then Dawud_uk is of the opinion that the members of Hamas and Fatah are apostates. All the shhia and sunnis fighting against each other in Iraq, apostates too. Darfur fighters, all apostates.

i am finding it hard to have a discussion with you as either you are not actually reading my posts or just totally misunderstanding them.

i will try again...

if a Muslim fights on the side of the disbelievers against his brothers and sisters in islam then in principle he is an apostate.

apply that principle to the situations you state above and you see it doesnt apply to all at all.

hope that helps,

Abu Abdullah