Polytheism: Whats the snags?

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???
analogies are used to make it easier for others!

In the case of the captain of the ship, true enough. The important bit is your quote from the Qur'an;

Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others

Does that verse not say, or at least imply, that it is in the nature of gods (any more than the one being purely hypothetical, of course) to 'champion' their creations and attempt to 'overcome' others? Both of those are human concepts, and might apply to human rulers, but why a god would need or might want to do either is unclear - at least to me. Either God/gods actually have those characteristics or they are being anthropomorphically assigned to Him/them. If the scenario is an analogy (?) then what is it an analogy of?
 
This thread is full of analogies and big words. I fail to see what can be proven/dis proven in this way.

We will never see eye to eye on this so why waste your breath? Be happy with what you know for indeed in time you will know the truth.
 
In the case of the captain of the ship, true enough. The important bit is your quote from the Qur'an;

Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others

Does that verse not say, or at least imply, that it is in the nature of gods (any more than the one being purely hypothetical, of course) to 'champion' their creations and attempt to 'overcome' others? Both of those are human concepts, and might apply to human rulers, but why a god would need or might want to do either is unclear - at least to me. Either God/gods actually have those characteristics or they are being anthropomorphically assigned to Him/them. If the scenario is an analogy (?) then what is it an analogy of?


'might or need to do either' meaning what? I don't understand...
Your Q is using a general principle and applying it where it doesn't fit; or supported by fact and by fact here I mean from the Quran since that is what I assume you originally used to speak of 'wanting to do either'.

Lastly I don't know of any Gods who have called dibs on anything in creation, and I don't know of a battle between the Gods save in fairy tales.

Given you are most likely to wonder why Islam is less of a fairy tale than others, and rather than draw this out, where I haven't the time to dedicate to a long drawn out theological debate, I'll sum it down to a general rule used in psychiatry ..how do you distinguish one delusion from another from truth, when it all seems subjective,it is highly contingent on content...

If someone is having an actual organic disease manifesting in the form of a headache and I have no true scientific way to measure it, I can look at concomitant symptoms, sequelae, differentials and possibilities and use best judgment.. if someone says, they are seeing purple, green dots every time they drink cake juice, while maintaining they are lucid, chances are what they are experiencing is improbable as an actual palpable organic disease while there is still a list of differentials, it is unlikely that the symptoms they are experiencing are anything but an actual erroneous psychotic belief...

that is another analogy by the way, just to break things down to a low common denominator!

cheers
 
'might or need to do either' meaning what? I don't understand...

Meaning just what it said. Why would God or gods need to 'champion' anything' or achieve domination over other gods? I don't think I can explain it any more clearly.

Your Q is using a general principle and applying it where it doesn't fit; or supported by fact and by fact here I mean from the Quran since that is what I assume you originally used to speak of 'wanting to do either'.

What 'general principle' am I supposed to be misapplying? I followed you in quoting from the Qur'an, and commenting on that passage. I have said nothing that needs supporting by further 'facts'.

Let me attempt to clarify. According to that quote it is in the nature of gods to 'champion' their creation and attempt to 'overcome' any other gods. Whether such a conflict has ever happened is irrelevant, although presumably we can take it as given , there being only one God according the Qur'an, that the situation is a purely hypothetical one. Nonetheless, it makes clear that were there more than one God, the inevitable consequence would be conflict between them.

What are obviously human (and indeed unpleasant human, in the second instance) character traits are being assigned to gods, and by implication, God. Gods would need to fight for their corner and defeat others because their motivations and desires are the same as those of people. You can't get any more anthropomorphic than that! The idea of a supreme being, let alone an omnipotent and omnibenevolent one, having such character traits (or indeed any character traits, as we recognise such things) is ridiculous.
 
Meaning just what it said. Why would God or gods need to 'champion' anything' or achieve domination over other gods? I don't think I can explain it any more clearly.

Perhaps it has nothing to do with clarity, rather that it is a non-question. .. It comes down to the purpose of creation. What would a lesser God want with say creating the seas, or another for trees or another for mountains and another for skies, and another for stars, one life one death, one drought, one harvest.... Once you conclude purpose for each, perhaps you can see why they would want to 'champion' their cause? -- in layman's terms If I created the best greatest new Model and my company's name is Mercedes, firstly I have to answer why did I create it? secondly, why is it superior to say an Audi? thirdly, would I want some other company to take credit for my creation-- say it is Mercedes engineered and made but I stick an Audi emblem emblem? fourthly, would I want someone else to be in competition, and lastly how do I effectively market my engineered wonder to as many as possible, to get them to their home safely?

What 'general principle' am I supposed to be misapplying? I followed you in quoting from the Qur'an, and commenting on that passage. I have said nothing that needs supporting by further 'facts'.
you said

Does that verse not say, or at least imply, that it is in the nature of gods (any more than the one being purely hypothetical, of course) to 'champion' their creations and attempt to 'overcome' others? Both of those are human concepts, and might apply to human rulers, but why a god would need or might want to do either is unclear

Which I believe my first reply covers!

Let me attempt to clarify. According to that quote it is in the nature of gods to 'champion' their creation and attempt to 'overcome' any other gods. Whether such a conflict has ever happened is irrelevant, although presumably we can take it as given , there being only one God according the Qur'an, that the situation is a purely hypothetical one. Nonetheless, it makes clear that were there more than one God, the inevitable consequence would be conflict between them.
Actually it can't be taken as a given, it is a verse meant to highlight the variance and absurdity with reason that the world should have more than one God-- Divine sarcasm if you will!
What are obviously human (and indeed unpleasant human, in the second instance) character traits are being assigned to gods, and by implication, God. Gods would need to fight for their corner and defeat others because their motivations and desires are the same as those of people. You can't get any more anthropomorphic than that! The idea of a supreme being, let alone an omnipotent and omnibenevolent one, having such character traits (or indeed any character traits, as we recognise such things) is ridiculous.

And that is actually your take home message, God has no son ( as that would attribute a human quality (anthropomorphism) and Gods (plural) would surely fight amongst themselves as naturally conflict would arise, one wanting rain, one wanting drought, one wanting life the other death... and an example from pagan religions would be a struggle as such was between between Baal and Mot..


got it?

cheers
 
Not really. Your interpretation doesn't even come close to what the verse actually says. In particular "as that would attribute a human quality (anthropomorphism)" just isn't there either explicitly or implicitly. Maybe it's different in Arabic, I don't know.

Once you conclude purpose for each, perhaps you can see why they would want to 'champion' their cause?

Only if I assign them human motivations and character traits. I see no reason to do so, as they are, by definition, not human ("lesser" or not).

I agree that verse clearly expects listeners/readers to have a background knowledge of such mythical conflicts between (anthropomorphized) pagan gods. You no doubt won't be surprised I can think of a much more plausible reason for such a reference than "Divine sarcasm"!
 
Not really. Your interpretation doesn't even come close to what the verse actually says. In particular "as that would attribute a human quality (anthropomorphism)" just isn't there either explicitly or implicitly. Maybe it's different in Arabic, I don't know.

Perhaps the question is, what do you think the verse is trying to tell you? I can accept that even I whose mother tongue is Arabic will make linguistic and exegetical mistakes.. but I think the meaning of this verse is overt!

Only if I assign them human motivations and character traits. I see no reason to do so, as they are, by definition, not human ("lesser" or not).

But that is actually the case with many Gods.. I don't even need to be a theist to see that the action of one God would be at odds if not actually nullify the action of another.

I agree that verse clearly expects listeners/readers to have a background knowledge of such mythical conflicts between (anthropomorphized) pagan gods. You no doubt won't be surprised I can think of a much more plausible reason for such a reference than "Divine sarcasm"!

Sure.. I have seen you come up with multitudes of conjectures about many a verse..
I can say that I have been there, and that time of uncertainty is over for me, I found my niche and what makes most sense... I am sure like wise you've found reason and comfort with where you are and you are so entitled ...


cheers
 
Greetings,

This is a very interesting discussion, people. :)

In a strange way, I almost think Skye and the bit of the Qur'an she quotes have put their finger on it: if polytheism were true, then it's possible one of the gods could have become all-powerful and then monotheism would prevail.


How do believers know that this has not in fact happened?


I obviously come from the same perspective as barney, that all gods are man-made. I think one big reason that monotheism seems to be more popular than polytheism is that it's just simpler for people to understand. After all, simpler explanations are usually more immediately convincing than complex ones.

Peace


I suppose that just as God existed before the beginning, that many gods could have existed before the beginning and just as you have suggested that our God simply is the one that won out. But the key is that all of this would have had to have happened before the beginning. And since God has not shared any of that which was before the beginning with us, I am agnostic to it.

In the universe in which we actually live it appears that there are those who accept only that which they have knowledge of through their own 5 senses (or technologies employed to enhances their senses). These people are called atheists for they perceive no god and therefore assume that none exists. There are those who asume that their senses do not perceive everything and that there might be something/someone out there beyond themselves. These people are some type of theist, be it animist, ploytheist, _____ist of all varities. Among them are some who believe they have some sort of special revelation or knowledge. These too come in various forms gnostic, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, and others).

The question that Barney and CZ cause us to ask is do any of these folks really have some sort of special revelation or knowledge? Or is their special knowledge little different than the intoxicated hallucinations of the Peruvian shaman. If that is all they are, then the analogy to dolphins worshipping gods with flippers is probably right. The Greek gods being a good case in point. But not all gods fit that mold, or at least if they do the comparison to humanity is so sophisticatedly derived that I don't see.

But there is something even in the profligate profuseness of myths that makes me think that God is real. For I wonder what is it in mankind that leads us to create so many myths about a creator god that seeks to redeem its creation. Might there be at the core something real, something primeval within us that recognizes that we do in fact have a creator, an origin that is from other than random happenstance. Might those who believe that all that is real can be observed through the observation of created nature have shut themselves off from the not just the observation of, but even the perception of the very thing which brought the creation into being? Will it not take some other sort of sensing to perceive that which has made us. And if God (or whatever god/gods there might be) is not a part of the material world, then those sense we have which have been developed for the purpose of existing in the material world, will be no help to us in whatever other non-material world might exist alongside our universe. We than can live in a state of unknowing (the agnostic), denial (the atheist), or speculation (the many varities of theists), and one could not prove any of the other two wrong.

But what if there is a way to know the non-material world? What might that way be? It would not be the result of mere speculation and imagination, that would be man creating God. It would have to be the result of some type of observation, perception, experiencing of God. I see then only two sources for knowledge of God. One would be if God should make revelation of himself within the natural world. The other would be if God should leave within humanity some ability to sense things beyond those senses which are targeted to understanding the created world. Many religions make claim to some type of special revelation. Among them Christianity (there may be others such as Native American) affirms that the spiritual world may also be sensed by those who are blessed with the presence of God's Spirit within them.

These religions that rely on such special revelation of gifts of spiritual perception would be those that can encounter God quite apart from themselves. While those that rely on their own ability to sense things with their eyes, ears, touch are going to have to create God in their own image. Perhaps the epitomy of such behavior would be the scientists who, because he cannot perceive God denies that God or any god could even exist. His behavior fits the pattern described by Paul 2000 years ago: "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14, my own translation).
 
no offense, but didn't christianity do just that?


No. I don't believe we did. As I've said before. We believe that we are created in God's image, not we in his.

But (perhaps this deserves its own thread), I'll bite, in what ways do you see Christianity as creating God in the image of human kind?
 
in a nutshell and according to my humble understanding of christianity, God the father being unable to understand human sin, made part of himself human-like :jesus.
jesus was conceived then born, and went through what most humans go though.
if jesus experienced these feelings , then god as a whole did too, for the purpose of the son was just that; god feeling human.
and so god has been made into our own image.
behind this lies the need to perceive god in a form that's familiar and tangible ie. human form. but I agree, this does deserve it's own thread.
 
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in a nutshell and according to my humble understanding of christianity, God the father being unable to understand human sin, made part of himself human-like :jesus.
jesus was conceived then born, and went through what most humans go though.
if jesus experienced these feelings , then god as a whole did too, for the purpose of the son was just that; god feeling human.
and so god has been made into our own image.
behind this lies the need to perceive god in a form that's familiar and tangible ie. human form. but I agree, this does deserve it's own thread.


Ah, I get where you are coming from now.

Well, the only thing I would correct in your "nutshell" understanding of Christianity is that God the father made himself human-like to "understand" anything. It wasn't his understanding that was lacking. It was our obedience to his will. As a human Jesus could be perfectly obedient, not because he was God, but precisely because he was human (the scripture call him the second Adam) and could therefore live the perfect life that was lost and stained by sin in the first Adam. Now if you are simply talking about Jesus taking on human-form, I guess in that way you might speak of God in human image, BUT that is not the image we are talking about when we talk about mankind being created in the image of God.
 
I'll admit I don't know much about christianity, so I appreciate your answers:)

so the son became fully human, and then became part of the trinity again, or even if he was/were still part of it while human, still the creator was partially human for a period of time, thus in our image.
 
There never was a time when the Son did not exist or when the Son was not God, and hence God has always been triune.

It is also true that there are discreet periods of time when the Son was God but was not human and there was a period of time when the Son was human. When he was human he was known by the name Jesus. And he was then and still is now God's Messiah, the anointed one, specially chosen by the Father.

As to whether or not the Son still has a physical human body is debated even among Christians, some way he has a physical body since he was physically raised from the dead; others say that he has a spiritual body since that is what Paul says that Christians are to be raised with. I'm going to leave it at that unless you are really curious about it.
 
There never was a time when the Son did not exist or when the Son was not God, and hence God has always been triune.

It is also true that there are discreet periods of time when the Son was God but was not human and there was a period of time when the Son was human. When he was human he was known by the name Jesus. And he was then and still is now God's Messiah, the anointed one, specially chosen by the Father.
do go on if you don't mind,
so when the son was human he was jesus, a human but still part of the trinity.
so still god was partially in our image since a persona was in human likeness?
 
I'd disagree, (i know...please dont die of shock about that! :D )

God we are Told is a jealous God, he is a planner/schemer and likes the smell of burnt sacrifices to him/her/it. He feels hate, he feels love he feels anger, revenge and indignation. These are all human emotions, the emotions of sentinent beings shared by many animals. They are often morally based, curiously identical to the morals of 3000 year old desert dewelling tribes.
We have "In the eyes" of God, by the "Hand of God", Moses sees the "face of god" and the "back of god".

This leads us to two possibilities
1) Man made God in his image
2) God made man in his image
 
^^^ hope that is about the Judeo/Christian God..
In Islam God doesn't feel Jealousy, or hatred, or being in human image at all in fact I challenge you to bring me a verse from the Quran that says so :D

cheers
 
^^^ hope that is about the Judeo/Christian God..
In Islam God doesn't feel Jealousy, or hatred, or being in human image at all in fact I challenge you to bring me a verse from the Quran that says so :D

cheers

Mixture of both Gods.

As regards Allah:
Hate

The Children of Israel
[17.38] All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord.
The Ranks
[61.3] It is most hateful to Allah that you should say that which you do not do.

Love
The Family of Imrahm
[3.31] Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

The Elevated places
[7.55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.

Revenge
Volume 8, Book 81, Number 777:
Narrated Aisha:

Whenever the Prophet was given an option between two things, he used to select the easier of the tow as long as it was not sinful; but if it was sinful, he would remain far from it. By Allah, he never took revenge for himself concerning any matter that was presented to him, but when Allah's Limits were transgressed, he would take revenge for Allah's Sake.

Allah must need revenge or Mohammed wouldnt have taken revenge for him.


As for the others and indeed including the above, they apply to Yahweh and many other Gods. Zeus was supposed to be insanely Jealous and quick to anger.
 

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