pondering Judaism and Islam... :)

[Annelise]

"Their own scripture is a proof against them since God has already described them as a hard headed nation, and a people who rebelled and earned God's wrath even during their best generation (the generation of Moses)."

When the Bible (that we now have) describes these things, it never suggests that God has taken His covenant away from Israel. The same prophets who criticise their people so harshly speak about an incredible restoration of their nation's knowledge of God, and in the meantime they repeat the promise that God's testimony will not leave the mouths of them or their descendants forever. The fact that these prophets were speaking and that Jewish people took their words, however harsh, preserved them as scripture, and often tried to live in the light of their message, is a historical reality and an important thing to remember. Other nations totally have a place in that, but Jews and Gentiles who love God have two different roles in serving Him. If that's what He chose and designed then it's not something we can question, but it is something to lift to Him for His glory and praise.

 

[- Qatada -]

Annelise, there is a whole thread dedicated to the discussion of the Torah being corrupted (based on the Torah and Tannakh sources).


One example Ansar quotes from the Bible is the following:

Prophet Moses went up to the mount and supplicated there for forty days. Let's examine the narrative in the Tanakh:

Shemot/Exodus 32:1-6
When the people saw that Moses was late in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron, and they said to him: "Come on! Make us gods that will go before us, because this man Moses, who brought us up from the land of Egypt we don't know what has become of him."

Aaron said to them, "Remove the golden earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters and bring them [those earrings] to me."

And all the people stripped themselves of the golden earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron.

He took [them] from their hand, fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

When Aaron saw [this], he built an altar in front of it, and Aaron proclaimed and said: "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the Lord."

On the next day they arose early, offered up burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and they got up to make merry.

So even after God feed the Israelits and parted the sea for their escape, this is their display of ingratitude. And these were his immediate followers who had witnessed these miracles themselves.

On the verge of punishing them for their transgression, at the last moment, Prophet Moses reprimanded God at
Shemot 32:14 The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people.

And in some versions it is translated as 'repented' instead of reconsidered. The idea of God repenting or reconsidering His already perfect decree, after being corrected by His servant, is another one of the unfathomable notions on the Torah.


​

See the full thread of discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/1401-what-proof-jews-corrupted-torah.html


We see a few points there which i've highlighted in red.

If God is described as 'repentant' or 'reconsidering' his decisions, it shows that the Tanakh is describing God as either imperfect (which is blasphemy), or as a God who is easily able to abrogate His laws whenever He wants with a rebellious nation (in that context God would be reconsidering something with the Israelites). What the Israelites don't realise is that God can easily change His covenant with them when they are known to be rebellious from the start. So Muslims will say that the covenant of God is still possibly with the Israelites, but it is now through the Quran.


Anyway check that thread out, it seems interesting.

 

[Independent]

Oh, and here's something that is incredibly important. Independent, you called it a logical dilemma... but in a Jewish person's relationship with God this is better understood as a moral dilemma. The logic doesn't only matter because they don't want to be fooled. It matters because it relates to a commandment that they believe (and Islam affirms, in some ways) is from God.

Apologies - for me it might be just a 'logical' dilemma, but for you that's a serious understatement.

 

[Annelise]

The way in which Jews understand this passage is that God was giving Moses an opportunity to plead for his people; if he hadn't begged for God not to give them the punishment that many of them deserved, then he would have failed as a prophet. So God is being described in terms that humans can understand (that doesn't mean that in His essence He is within human comprehension): He gave a judgment based on what was deserved, and then He showed mercy instead. The fact is that Judaism knows and affirms constantly that God is unchanging and all knowing and beyond our ability to grasp, even though He relates so closely with us. So this particular passage must be read in the light of that awareness.

I don't want to go into the issue of proofs for whether the Tanach is corrupted or not at the moment, because as you say there are already endless discussions about that. And they are important. But this question is different, and I believe it's really central. If a Jew reads all of that material and comes to the decision that actually, it has been changed and is not from God, or at least only partially from Him... then how can they appeal to those same scriptures (which they no longer believe in, or at least they don't know which parts are true and which aren't) as a reason to accept Islam?

 

[Annelise]

Independent... I think both aspects are part of it. For someone who knows God, and knows Him within the context of a faith system, the commandments are really important and the function of logic is to know how to apply them. But of course no one can stay within a faith in anything that they actually feel is completely contradictory. So logic and experience both come into it.

I find it important to deal with the issues separately, though. When I started questioning the divinity of Jesus, and therefore all of my faith in Christianity, it was an issue of logical contradiction... but I had experienced those before, and held on to the detail of my faith just because I believed that my experience of knowing God affirmed them (despite my small knowledge). The reason why Judaism challenged me in a way that I actually followed was because of the moral issue: if you really live to worship God, you can't worship a human by default when you don't actually know if he was creator or created.

That said, I recognised two different questions. You can't just take off the New Testament and be left with the Tanach; you can't suddenly accept the testimony of Judaism if you never accepted it before. So one question was an 'intra-faith' question: if the Tanach is true as written, then is it Christianity or Judaism that is the true fulfilment of it? And the second is about whether the Tanach was from God in the first place. I decided to keep the second question totally separate from the first, and to deal with it last, because it has to be dealt with quite differently depending on whether Christianity or Orthodox Judaism is the context for considering it.

 

[YusufNoor]

YusufNoor, regarding the passage you posted, I do believe it's true that the Israelites were often stubborn and disobedient. It's important to realise, though, that the prophets were part of a righteous group who preserved the Jewish understanding of God and of His Law throughout history, so that people like Nehemiah could know what it was and so that his generation could turn to it wholeheartedly. God gave some really beautiful blessings to the generation who were rebuilding the Temple around that time, especially in the book of Haggai. Zechariah is the same, though its message is more complex (it's a long book), and the description of how God made one nation holy so that the whole world could come to know Him in close relationship is really amazing in that book. I don't know what else you were trying to point out from that passage, but let me know where you want to go from those thoughts of how I read it. God deserves our wholehearted obedience, so He always wanted the majority of Israel to turn back to the commandments. With that I definitely agree. I don't believe that the testimony of who He is ever left them, though.

The one thing I really wanted to ask in my first post was how a Jew in the Middle Ages could accept Muhammad on the basis of the Jewish commandments, if they were actually no longer in possession of those commandments in an accurate form. Does that make sense?

Shalom,

one of the reasons i use that post is that it answers a question that many non-Muslims think Islam lies about, the killing of the Prophets:

26 “But they didn’t obey you. Instead, they turned against you. They turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets. The prophets had warned them to turn back to you. But they did very evil things that dishonored you.

another is that the Babylonian exile is, in my opinion, the event that reveals the answer to the question of where today's various forms of Judaism begin. the Decalogue was clearly understood before then, but i can find no reference to there being 613 Mitzvahs before then. another issue is that many Jews are of the belief that up until that time, the entire written Torah, as well the entire oral Torah, were BOTH preserved since their delivery. evidence in the Tanakh itself proves that is false, as well as historical commentary from Jewish sources indicating that is unlikely. i'll get to these later, please concentrate on what others are posting. just ponder the concepts that i have set out.

you asked:

If Jews can only accept Islam by deciding that there are flaws in the written Torah and the Jewish tradition, and then they might come to Islam for the reasons that anyone else in the world might do so, then why were Jews commanded by the Qur'an to accept Islam on the basis of the knowledge they already had?

a simple answer is that Islam should equal the original Torah, once additions and "traditions" are removed. the "spirit" of the Torah is also important. of import here would be the understanding of Torah by Hillel as opposed to Shammai.

you asked:

Zechariah is the same, though its message is more complex (it's a long book), and the description of how God made one nation holy so that the whole world could come to know Him in close relationship is really amazing in that book.

one could say that the Diaspora was a crucial element in exposing Judaism to the world. since the final destruction of Judea though, how exactly have the Jews acted in a manner that is "spreading the knowledge of the One True God?" technically, you can only become a Jew if your mother was Jewish. think about that. how "active" are Jews in preaching Torah to the rest of the world? ponder...

background, have you read Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman? it is a fascinating book, and a superb overview of the Documentary Hypothesis:

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353

Peace

 

[Annelise]

Do you mean you believe that apart from the Decalogue, all of the mitzvot (both written and traditional) were completely invented after the Babylonian exile?

We should talk sometime about the oral Law in Judaism, because there are some big misconceptions about it... but I don't want to distract from the points at hand.

Can you expand more on what you're saying about the 'spirit' of the law, and the understandings of Torah by Hillel and Shammai in that context?

Anyone can become a Jew by converting, and anyone can also follow the God who revealed Himself to Israel without becoming Jewish. Their specific covenant is just for them (and whoever joins them), but salvation and relationship with God are open to everyone. As to how the Jews are meant to be a blessing to the nations, and yet they often live very separately, the Jewish understanding is that God chose to bless the world by having one nation stand separate. It's a responsibility to serve God and the other nations. When the Jewish people are physically restored as they are still hoping will happen, there are many prophecies about how the whole earth will stream to join in with this and will be blessed by the light that comes from what God has done. Jews don't want to mess with that plan because it comes from God, so as much as their religion requires them to live separately from others at the moment, they do it. They pass the message on to their own children. But there are so, so many Jews out there who are living lives that honour God and bless other people, just by being who they are in their workplaces or communities. They may not be public figures, and they may be very modest in their faith, but it has a real impact on anyone who is willing to ask and hear more.

 

[YusufNoor]

Do you mean you believe that apart from the Decalogue, all of the mitzvot (both written and traditional) were completely invented after the Babylonian exile?

i wouldn't get that specific, but i am saying that Judaism, as we know it today, originates in Babylon.

We should talk sometime about the oral Law in Judaism, because there are some big misconceptions about it... but I don't want to distract from the points at hand.

Can you expand more on what you're saying about the 'spirit' of the law, and the understandings of Torah by Hillel and Shammai in that context?

Shammai taught that strict adherence to "law", was how you best expressed your Judaism. Hillel felt that Judaism was meant to answer the question, "am i my brothers keeper?" in the absolute positive.

Anyone can become a Jew by converting, and anyone can also follow the God who revealed Himself to Israel without becoming Jewish. Their specific covenant is just for them (and whoever joins them), but salvation and relationship with God are open to everyone. As to how the Jews are meant to be a blessing to the nations, and yet they often live very separately, the Jewish understanding is that God chose to bless the world by having one nation stand separate. It's a responsibility to serve God and the other nations. When the Jewish people are physically restored as they are still hoping will happen, there are many prophecies about how the whole earth will stream to join in with this and will be blessed by the light that comes from what God has done. Jews don't want to mess with that plan because it comes from God, so as much as their religion requires them to live separately from others at the moment, they do it. They pass the message on to their own children. But there are so, so many Jews out there who are living lives that honour God and bless other people, just by being who they are in their workplaces or communities. They may not be public figures, and they may be very modest in their faith, but it has a real impact on anyone who is willing to ask and hear more.

Shalom,

my favorite tradition on Hillel is this:

Rabbi Shammai was an engineer, known for the strictness of his views. The Talmud tells that a gentile came to Shammai saying that he would convert to Judaism if Shammai could teach him the whole Torah in the time that he could stand on one foot. Shammai drove him away with a builder's measuring stick! Hillel, on the other hand, converted the gentile by telling him, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it."

http://www.jewfaq.org/sages.htm

you can't rely on the Law, if that Law is not the original Law. you MAY live how you feel Hashem wants you to, and then review review the Law to see where is in accord with revelation. but you have to determine between what is revelation and what is a "derivative" of revelation.

as for, "what is a Jew?"

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, allow Jewish status to pass through the mother or the father if the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish (or even just adopts Jewish identity as an adult, like Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords), the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement (see their position here), but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement. The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that interfaith child's children also comes into question.

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. A more liberal movement might not follow the procedures required by the more traditional movement, thereby invalidating the conversion. For example, Orthodoxy requires acceptance of the yoke of Torah (observance of Jewish law as Orthodoxy understands it), while other movements would not teach the same laws that Orthodoxy does and might not require observance. The Conservative movement requires circumcision and immersion in a mikvah, which is not always required in Reform conversions.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

basically, Jews cannot even agree on what IS a Jew. you can be a Jew and still be an atheist.

on the other hand, one is a Muslim IF they follow Qur'an and Sunnah, PERIOD. one who adds a title to their Islam is not adhering to the straight path. Sunni is NOT a title, it is merely a way of acknowledging that one is not Shii'a. it doesn't matter who your mom or dad is, what your race is or your social standing.

peace

 

[Annelise]

I think that both approaches are important, as you described in the story of Shammai and Hillel. The reason is that God's commandments really matter, and they shouldn't be treated with anything less than the highest respect... they shouldn't be lessened for the sake of anyone. Yet there are many people who are trapped and taken captive by unhelpful beliefs and understandings. How can you do anything but welcome them, speak gently with people, engage with sincerity wherever it is found in the smallest part? Both the importance of guarding Torah standards and the importance of welcoming people wherever they are at are realities because of the confusion in our world.

Regarding the spirit of the law, it is a really big part of the Jewish legal process. The lawmakers in Jewish communities, and the common people with them, are in a constant conversation about how to bring every part of their lives closer to the heart of the Torah and the heart of God; how to preserve these things in a living form for the generations to come, staying steady in old paths and respecting decisions made before them while also letting go of the mistakes made in the past. But when you described feelings of revelation from God as the guiding feature of which commandments of the Torah are true...... Judaism is actually an experience of surrender to commandments that may or may not make sense to us, given by God Himself to a whole nation to follow together as a part of the way they tell their unique story. If humans can't even understand the intricacies of natural science well enough to create a living creature from scratch out of various elements, how can we presume to understand the nature of spiritual realities beyond our own perception? Yes, we have to test the message, and find reasons to trust the messenger. But Judaism holds that a set of laws was given at a mountain after the Israelites came out of Egypt with God's miraculous help. Once you are willing to believe that, then the commandments are absolutely central in your testing of further revelation. If you don't have access to those commandments because they have not been preserved, then you have nothing to work with according to the very fabric of Judaism. If you don't think the commandments are central, then yes, you can test the new revelation based on what you feel were the best parts of your old belief... but that isn't the Jewish way of thinking (unless you talk with really liberal Jews, who make their own laws essentially). And it certainly wasn't in the Middle Ages either.

 

[Annelise]

'Jewishness' is a really intricate identification, and it doesn't fall into modern categories of 'religion'. It is an ethnicity linked with a covenant, which has implications of faith. But not all Jews keep the covenant, and certainly not all people who believe in Israel's God are Jews.

It might make more sense if you think back to the time when you believe the Jews did have a covenant with God that had not been superseded by Islam. They had a really important message to share with the world, that God is the only power who deserves our trust and the affection of our worship. Why did God choose them to begin with? It wasn't to exclude everyone else from relationship with Himself. Jews believe that the same is true until this day.

 

[Annelise]

Regarding the cultures of the world, they all have strengths and weaknesses, but I really look forward to the time when the whole world is united in the knowledge of God... and every culture is therefore devoted to expressing that in its own intricate and unique ways. A kaleidoscope of experiences and expressions, but all unified in truth. That will be a really amazing thing to share.

 

[YusufNoor]

But Judaism holds that a set of laws was given at a mountain after the Israelites came out of Egypt with God's miraculous help. Once you are willing to believe that, then the commandments are absolutely central in your testing of further revelation.

Shalom,

i agree. what Laws though? or maybe, which Laws? what was done at Sinai? what was added after? the 5 books called the Pentateuch or Torah now, were NOT given at Sinai. thus, we have to peel away, like layers of an onion, what has been embossed over that revelation. once that is done, we can compare further Revelation to see if it is consistent with it.

i would say that Islam is VERY consistent with it and that neither Talmud nor Rabbinic Judaism come as close. Islam is nearer to the Decalogue while today's Judaism has added so much that it is more a religion of man. i see Prophet Isa ibn Marriam, peace be upon them both, making this case in his preaching.

the "core" of Judaism is the 613 Mitzvahs, but those were NOT revealed at Sinai. ergo, they are additions. if we use the Decalogue, we are on, what i would call, a more solid foundation.

peace

 

[Annelise]

Why do you believe the ten commandments were spoken from a mountain to some people in a desert? And why do you think they have anything to do with what our Creator wants from us? I think these are really foundational questions... the reasons we each have for trusting and believing even just those two things.

 

[YusufNoor]

Why do you believe the ten commandments were spoken from a mountain to some people in a desert?

not saying, "on a mountain," per se. but delivered to humanity by Hashem/Allah through Prophet Moses, pbuh. why do i believe? i don't think i ever didn't believe so i don't think i can provide you with a rational explanation. plus i loved the movie as a kid.

And why do you think they have anything to do with what our Creator wants from us?

elementary my Dear Watson, they are the foundation for all relevant knowledge. God exists, recognize Him, obey Him and treat others in a manner consistent with that knowledge. "do unto others" so to speak.

I think these are really foundational questions... the reasons we each have for trusting and believing even just those two things.

Shalom,

we are lost with paying heed to the Decalogue, yet blessed and instructed through them.

peace

 

[- Qatada -]

Why do you believe the ten commandments were spoken from a mountain to some people in a desert? And why do you think they have anything to do with what our Creator wants from us? I think these are really foundational questions... the reasons we each have for trusting and believing even just those two things.

God chose the Israelites just as He chose Adam, and Abraham - meaning He chooses whoever He wills (hence our willingness to accept the Arabs as carriers of Gods message). Infact, God even raised satan to a high rank until satan himself became a racist, disobeying God and fell after breaking his covenant with God.

I understand where your confusion is; you wonder why God would choose the Israelites and say He will keep an everlasting covenant with them, and then abandon that covenant for a new people - the Arabs?


Well according the Old Testament, we read:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

​

This means that God will not abandon His covenant with the Israelites, but He will make a NEW one with them. We as Muslims believe that God made a new covenant with the Jews through His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him). Because God/Allah says in the Quran:

And they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion.

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.

Their reward with Allah will be gardens of perpetual residence beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them and they with Him. That is for whoever has feared his Lord.

(Quran Surah Bayyinah [the Clear Proof]) 98)



​

 

[- Qatada -]

I forgot to add, the Quran is extremely detailed in regard to the Israelites; their history, behaviour and secrets are exposed in the Quran in a way unmatched by any other text.

So one thing Jews should really ponder is - how did Muhammad (peace be upon him) get all this secret and divine information, while he wasn't a magician nor a liar nor Jewish? If he is supposedly a false prophet, or simply a gentile prophet - why does God - according to the Divine Law revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) command that the Jews follow his guidance over even Mosaic law?


Infact the guidance of the Qur'an is most similar to the law of Moses, because Islam is a continuation of the message of Moses. ALL Prophets of God were Muslims (submitters to God) and not exclusive to a certain race. All these things make logical sense, since Abraham was not a Jew, since the word Isra'eel (if i remember correctly, it means 'repentant one') was the name of Jacob (who is the grandson of Abraham). Hence the Jewish race only began AFTER Abraham.

The main characteristic of Abraham was Monotheism, and loyalty to God. This is what faith and the covenant of God depend upon, not exclusivity of race. This is what makes Islam beautiful, that you can be part of the same covenant with God without having to be limited to a different race with different laws.



My main point is - there are more than enough proofs for the Jews to realise that God chooses sincere believers, and He has not broken His covenant with the Jews if they fulfill their side of the covenant with Him.

Furthermore, if the Jews fear that they will be punished for breaking the Sabbath (a law which has now been abrogated according to Islam) - then the Jews who have become Muslim and have broken the Sabbath - they have not been punished like the Jews of Bani Isra'eel of earlier times. This is a hint that its possible that God has abrogated this law of the Sabbath.

In regard to the rest of the covenant and 10 commandments, then they are all commandments in the Qur'an still today (with the exception of the Sabbath law).




Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them.

And do not approach immoralities/shamefulness - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." (Quran 6:151)

 

[Insaanah]

Insaanah, I really liked your post, I've never thought of it that way before. As someone who has always believed in a God who did not make Himself incarnate as a man, it might be hard to comprehend what it means for a Christian to believe in Jesus. But I was taught that he wasn't just a man. The affection I had for 'Jesus' was not actually affection for a historical person in his own right, but actually a love for God, flawed as my understanding of Him was. So I actually have never had a relationship with the person Jesus, it all belonged to God. If I met Jesus I would have love for him as for any other human, and if he really was a righteous and God-fearing person then I would respect him, but it would have no relationship to the worship that belongs only to God and that I once thought belonged to Jesus as well. It doesn't. It's not his and I never intended it towards a created being. That's why I don't see it as natural or right to meet in the middle, so to speak For me, my belief in any of the prophets actually comes from the testimony of the Jewish tradition about them, and they don't accept Jesus as a prophet. If I accepted Islam as the community in which God has made His revelation clear and preserved it, then of course I would see Jesus as a prophet. But I can't see how a Jew could guard the Torah (as they currently have it) and still accept either Christianity or Islam, so I don't know how either of those religions could be true. One of my Christian friends keeps telling me things about Jesus' miracles and nobility that are very similar to what people here are telling me about Muhammad, but those things aren't the way in which the Jews were supposed to test a claim of revelation... as far as I know. So I do believe that Christianity and Islam have a lot of kernels of truth in them, and that people in those faiths have a real experience with God, but I'm listening to Judaism for their understanding of what it means that we should submit to our creator and know Him as He reveals His blessing to us. What do you think?

Thank you for your post.

I'd just like to clarify mine, in case there was any misunderstanding about it.

Rejecting Jesus (peace be upon him) is one wrong extreme (as practised by Jews).

Deifying him is the other wrong extreme (as practised by Christians).

Muslims do not reject him, nor deify him. Divinity belongs to God, alone, and all worship is for God alone.

Muslims respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was, nothing less, and nothing more. Neither rejected or blasphemed, nor deified. Not divine in any way. One of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the mightiest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We believe he was born miraculously of the virgin Mary (peace be upon her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified.

Allah has sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, with guidance to show us how He wants us to live and worship Him. The messengers and Prophets conveyed the guidance from God to the people, showed how to apply that guidance and implement it into our lives, were role models of behaviour, and leaders of the believers at the times they were sent. They were living human examples for the believers, and were the noblest of humanity, chosen and sent by God for that purpose.

Muslims believe in all the prophets God sent to guide and warn people, and do not reject any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. We do not reject or discriminate against any of them. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. God sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to God and to worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to God as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, either by deeming certain humans to be incarnations of Him, to be His sons, or any other way.

So Islam is not a new faith but is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, and the meaning loosely translates as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, all races and all peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

Whenever God's message got distorted, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new/changed core beliefs, but reinforcing the actual core beliefs that God sent, confirming the true parts what came before, correcting misconceptions and wrong beliefs that had crept in, with possible small changes in ancillary rules/regulations. God required that whenever a new messenger was sent, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, in tact.

Since the time of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger, Gods message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. Prophet Muhammad wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, from his prophethood until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, to be followed until the end of time.

The Jews throughout history have rejected some of those who God sent to convey His message; some they rejected, some they blasphemed and some they killed. To reject the one who God sent, is a very serious sin. It is for this rebellious behaviour that they have been chastised in the Qur'an, as well as those in authority changing their scriptures.

Peace.

 

[Annelise]

Hi Qatada. An alternative possibility is that your prophet had met Jews and heard their own stories, some of which are contained in Tanach and some which were not. He could then have pieced together his own version of events from all the Jewish ideas he had heard and considered. When you say that something is secret and divine information, though, I know that to you it is true because it's written in the Qur'an... but how could I test whether his information about the Jews was from hearing stories or from receiving revelation? How could I know if it's true or imagined, whenever it contradicts the Jewish version? In the same way, how can I compare the Qur'an to the true law of Moses if I don't know what Moses' law was?

I'm juggling exams and assignments at the moment, but I want to say again that I really appreciate all the information you gave me to follow at the start of this conversation. I'll be able to really sit down and read it more deeply in a couple of weeks when the summer break starts


I think I understand what you're saying about God not breaking His original covenant with the Jews, but simply placing it in the Qur'an, in the hands of the Arabs, and opening it up to the rest of the world as well. It's hard to respond to this unless we know what the original covenant was and what methods were put in place to preserve it so that people could respond to it in any generation. You say "they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah"... but the Jews believe that the covenant law was more complex than that. There are many similarities and many differences in Jewish and Muslim legislation, and the details are important. It's also very important to Jews that if they are a nation of witnesses, they must never deny or forget that... just like it's important to Muslims to point to Islam as the repository of God's truth. So you can understand the very high caution, and the difficulty in the claim that their religion is not pure enough to test a new prophet by... and yet that they must.


I'm going to ask YusufNoor if we can talk about the oral Law within Judaism, even though the basis of that conversation doesn't interact with the premises of Islam. It's complex, but like Islam, Judaism works on the authority of both a text and a community/tradition. I hope that such a conversation might give a clearer understanding of how I think the Torah was meant to be preserved and how Jews in our time are bound to test the revelations of God, as long as they are within their religion at all.

 

[Annelise]

Thank you so much Insaanah. I know that you meant that Jesus was neither God nor simply another human being, but a great prophet who deserves our respect. My question would be... how am I supposed to know that? You're saying that it's true, but you believe that because Islam considers him a prophet. Unless I can accept the witness of Islam for other reasons, I have no way of knowing that Jesus was in fact a special person and that the most balanced approach to him is to honour him as a great and noble man.

I never met him, and different religions imagine him so differently... so how could I know that he was any different from any other person?

 

[Annelise]

YusufNoor, you said that Judaism is essentially a man made religion because of everything that has been added. WRITER also asked me to explain what the promises/instructions are which keep Jews from accepting Islam, and what I believe the covenant was. So I'm wondering, even though this conversation is between Islam and Judaism... would you mind discussing the oral Law with me from within the context of Judaism?

If we were to assume that the written Tanach is all true, do you think that it would be better to accept the Talmud or to ignore it like the Karaites did? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on that matter, hypothetical as it is, just based on the verses in Tanach and the nature of that book in itself. In the meantime, I'll try to find a way to answer WRITER's question in a way that also explains to you why I feel the legal tradition in Judaism is legitimate and important, even though it's partially made up of human traditions (designed to preserve the spirit of the law) and partially a preservation of real experiences and commandments from God.