pondering Judaism and Islam... :)

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YusufNoor, you said that Judaism is essentially a man made religion because of everything that has been added.

i wouldn't phrase it like that. i try to be careful to establish my position that Judaism "as we know it today" originates in Babylon. i'm not being picayune when i say that. while looking back from this 21st Century, i think we can pinpoint the time of Moses, pbuh, as the establishment of the religion of "Bani Israel." THAT is where we must seek to determine the essence of their beliefs. i would only claim what followed after to be "man-made." unless we have a Lawgiver following Moses, pbuh. we would have to examine David, pbuh, to cover that. there are some pre-Babylonian additions, and a "whole tradition" beginning in Babylon.

WRITER also asked me to explain what the promises/instructions are which keep Jews from accepting Islam, and what I believe the covenant was. So I'm wondering, even though this conversation is between Islam and Judaism... would you mind discussing the oral Law with me from within the context of Judaism?

we can discuss the origins.


If we were to assume that the written Tanach is all true, do you think that it would be better to accept the Talmud or to ignore it like the Karaites did? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on that matter, hypothetical as it is, just based on the verses in Tanach and the nature of that book in itself. In the meantime, I'll try to find a way to answer WRITER's question in a way that also explains to you why I feel the legal tradition in Judaism is legitimate and important, even though it's partially made up of human traditions (designed to preserve the spirit of the law) and partially a preservation of real experiences and commandments from God.

Shalom,

i would not accept that the Tanakh is "all true." the Deuteronomic History i see as written by Baruch ben Nariah, who is putting to pen the thoughts of Jeremiah. this would also include the Book of Deuteronomy itself. The Pentateuch is a combination of Lore from Israel (northern kingdom) and Judea (southern kingdom), with additions from Baruch/Jeremiah, a Priestly author and Ezra being the final redactor/editor (with minor editing from Baruch/Jeremiah). i see Ezra as the writer and editor of most of Ketuvim. as a Muslim, we would see the "original" Psalms of David, pbuh, as Revelation. the rest of "The Prophets" appear more warning based and not necessarily "Law." we differentiate between Prophet and Lawgiver, eg, Moses as Prophet/Lawgiver and Aaron as Prophet. [although i do not mean that Nevi'im or the Ketuvim are "inspired" or original as they are.]

as far as the Talmud goes, i can offer you what we believe as Muslims. we follow Qur'an and Sunnah, as understood by those who lived in the time of Muhhamad, pbuh. you CAN NOT add anything to that. EVERYTHING must be based upon that. you CAN make decisions based upon them, but you are not writing "new law." and if you came across something in the Sunnah that contradicted your decision, you would have to re-evaluate your analysis.

does that answer your question?

peace
 
Hi Qatada. An alternative possibility is that your prophet had met Jews and heard their own stories, some of which are contained in Tanach and some which were not. He could then have pieced together his own version of events from all the Jewish ideas he had heard and considered. When you say that something is secret and divine information, though, I know that to you it is true because it's written in the Qur'an... but how could I test whether his information about the Jews was from hearing stories or from receiving revelation? How could I know if it's true or imagined, whenever it contradicts the Jewish version? In the same way, how can I compare the Qur'an to the true law of Moses if I don't know what Moses' law was?


I'm actually glad you've asked this question, and the answer is simple:

Which sane Jew would tell a gentile Prophet about the secret stories mentioned in the Tanach
, when the Jews are known to be a secretive group especially when it comes to their tradition (which they limit to their own scholarly elite), and especially when they are suspicious of some gentile claiming to be Prophet of God? A Prophet who they are willing to kill and assassinate (like many previous Prophets').

I'm actually surprised that you don't know about the Jewish scholarly elders, their characteristics and the
esoteric knowledge they claim to uphold.


Example: the Israelites at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) challenged him (to prove he is a Messenger of Allah) by narrating why the Israelites left the land of common day Palestine for Egypt, and how they as a nation returned back to Egypt. And Allah revealed the events of the life of Joseph and Moses in extreme detail in the Quran to answer the challenge.

Many Jews, including the scholars themselves did not have full knowledge of these events, and the Qur'an proved itself as a confirmation of Scripture which came before from the same God.



I'm juggling exams and assignments at the moment, but I want to say again that I really appreciate all the information you gave me to follow at the start of this conversation. I'll be able to really sit down and read it more deeply in a couple of weeks when the summer break starts :)


I'm really glad, I hope you pass your exams with ease :)



I think I understand what you're saying about God not breaking His original covenant with the Jews, but simply placing it in the Qur'an, in the hands of the Arabs, and opening it up to the rest of the world as well. It's hard to respond to this unless we know what the original covenant was and what methods were put in place to preserve it so that people could respond to it in any generation. You say "they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah"... but the Jews believe that the covenant law was more complex than that. There are many similarities and many differences in Jewish and Muslim legislation, and the details are important. It's also very important to Jews that if they are a nation of witnesses, they must never deny or forget that... just like it's important to Muslims to point to Islam as the repository of God's truth. So you can understand the very high caution, and the difficulty in the claim that their religion is not pure enough to test a new prophet by... and yet that they must.

I think you're not understanding my point - the Jews overall know what a true Messenger of God is supposed to be (after receiving many for over 2000years). If you read the Torah and read the Qur'an, you'll actually realise it's the same God speaking to you.

Example: read in the Torah how God speaks to Moses in their first encounter, then read the Quran on the same meeting of Moses with God (surah Taha 20:9) - then reflect; could it be the same God who speaks both? (because the Quran is believed to be the literal word of God).


Ask me why I know alot about Jewish history without me even knowing in detail the books of the Old Testament. Why? Simply because the same God who revealed the message to Moses has confirmed the message in the Final Book which unites even the Jews on what they differ.

1 Book - 1 final Messenger - 1 Law - 1 United language - 1 United Nation
(without racism or borders). This is what you expect from God in sending His final Message for humanity.


Compare this to the Israelites who have been exhiled for over 2000 years
, and even now Israel is a secular nation which does not implement God's law. Did you really think God would leave His chosen people like this for so long? Or does it make sense that God DID send them Messengers' but the Jews rejected them, yet there was believers who did follow God's law, who were strictly monotheistic like Abraham, and they have excelled even further than the Jews in closeness in their covenant with God.



I'm going to ask YusufNoor if we can talk about the oral Law within Judaism, even though the basis of that conversation doesn't interact with the premises of Islam. It's complex, but like Islam, Judaism works on the authority of both a text and a community/tradition.


Islam is also based on Text (Qur'an = the speech of God) and Tradition (Sunnah - the Prophetic way).

Unlike the Jewish tradition however, we have detailed and preserved texts which prove which text is valid and which isn't. This is based on a Sanad system, whereby if someone said 'the Messenger of God said...' - then they will have to prove it through a chain of narrators extending all the way back to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and each person in the chain is scrutinized for their trustworthiness and memory. This is a massive science which fills libraries in their hundreds of thousands. No other nation has this accurate preservation of their history more than the followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

You can read more about it HERE.



I hope that such a conversation might give a clearer understanding of how I think the Torah was meant to be preserved and how Jews in our time are bound to test the revelations of God, as long as they are within their religion at all.

Looks interesting :)
 
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Just a quick clarification... the stories in the Tanach aren't secret, by any means; the common Jewish people know them, as do the Christians and many other people around them. The Jewish sages and teachers were mostly secretive about mystical ideas regarding creation. What exact stories did Muhammad know that were meant to be esoteric knowledge?
 
Just a quick clarification... the stories in the Tanach aren't secret, by any means; the common Jewish people know them, as do the Christians and many other people around them. The Jewish sages and teachers were mostly secretive about mystical ideas regarding creation. What exact stories did Muhammad know that were meant to be esoteric knowledge?


There's more than enough content in the Qur'an regarding many aspects of the Jewish esoteric knowledge, which includes the narratives of creation, and there are plenty of ahadeeth reports of Jews asking questions to him to test if he truly is a Prophet of God, and him answering them directly on the spot accurately, without having to resort to anyone.

(some examples of questions include [paraphrased]: how will God hold the creation in His hand on Judgment Day, what will be the first meal the inhabitants of Paradise will eat, who were the boys who fled their people [the sleepers in the cave - surah al Kahf], Cyrus the Great [Dhul Qarnayn]) to name a few examples.)


Note, the main characteristic of this Prophet is that he was an illiterate, so he himself had never studied religions, texts, nor had he intermixed with Jewish Rabbis his life, and when the challenges were addressed to him - they were through a proxy (the polytheists of Makkah at the time).

Furthermore he was known as 'al Sadeeq al Ameen' (the Truthful and Trustworthy) by his people even before he got the message, and even after he had the message. The reason why his people rejected him was because they were afraid to lose their power (they would have to lower themselves to God's Law), and this is why many Jewish Rabbis rejected him also (they would have to humble themselves to an Arab (who ironically was a also a son of Abraham).
 
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Even though Israel is a largely secular nation, with only a percentage of Jews being observant, that reflects the fact that people have a personal choice within the covenant. But it is the covenant law that preserves Israel as God's witnesses; when people stop observing Judaism, their descendants stop identifying as Jews within a few generations. As far as I know, pretty much all of the great-grandparents of all Jews today were observant Orthodox Jews. If that makes sense... the story unfolds over more than one generation at a time.

YusufNoor, it was just asked as a hypothetical because I sensed that you had an opinion about the way Orthodox Jewish tradition relates to the Tanach itself. Don't worry about it, I'll try and find better questions.

I'm trying to find a simple, clear way of expressing what the oral Law means in the context of Judaism. This (really short) video helps in showing that the laws made by rabbis in our time are designed not to add to the Torah (God forbids it) but to help their communities really adhere to the spirit of the law, and the testimony that is contained in living observances. (Search: "Misconceptions about the Oral Law" "Jews4Judaism" on YouTube... I'm sorry I still can't post links.)

The same Rabbi in the video wrote elsewhere that "The Five Books do not present themselves as an independent legal text. They are written in the format of a narrative, with various laws woven into the narrative. In other words; the Torah does not read like the constitution of the United States which simply sets down an arrangement of laws. Instead the Torah records the conversations in which God commanded Moses one law or another. Sometimes the Torah may record a lengthy series of laws, but always in the narrative setting of a God talking to Moses (as in Leviticus 1:1-7:38) or Moses talking to the people (as in the book of Deuteronomy). The usage of the narrative format confirms the significance of these conversations as the basis of the Law. Furthermore, these narratives are not written in a way that would indicate that every last word of the conversation was included in the written record." So he believes that the people of Israel have an important understanding of the Torah, and that, as God promised, His testimony would be preserved in their midst. I already quoted from Isaiah 59: "As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My spirit, which is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord."

This article is really worth reading, if you get the time. (Search on Google: "1000 verses" "validating the oral law" )It's not actually as long as it looks on the scroll bar, because there are comments underneath :) If I hear your reaction to these things, I might have a clearer understanding of how to try and explain the relationship between carefully passed down traditions, written testimony of the law, and the jurisdiction of Rabbis in individual communities as they strive to come ever closer to the letter and the spirit of the Torah.

One of the main reasons why the Torah does not allow a Jew to take Islam seriously is because of the commandment to do certain things for all their generations, forever. That was an unconditional command: they should always pass their story and their relationship with God down, through these laws and observances carefully kept. No questions asked, no suggestion that things might change in future. There were definitely blessings given for obedience and curses for disobedience, but I already quoted Deuteronomy 30:1-10... you can see the emphasis here on returning to the exact same commandments they were already given, and being restored again to the original covenant. Except that, like the prophets said, it would be a renewed covenant and a great blessing of restoration because of that. (Search on Google, with quotes: "Deuteronomy - Chapter 30 (Parshah Nitzavim) - Tanakh Online")

If you say that these chapters are changed and false, then to say other chapters from the Torah are proofs of Islam is to bring an indistinguishable double standard to the people of Israel in any generation. This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet.
 
Can you show me some of the ahadeeth reports you mentioned? The thing is though, I don't know whether I can trust them to be 100% accurate proof of things that happened in history, even if you think their messengers are judged to be trustworthy. And I still think that many aspects of Judaism have always been common knowledge. People do talk about things like this all the time.

The things at stake are just so high, and the commonsense understanding of Tanach just wouldn't lead a Jew of ancient times to expect to need to accept a claim like this in the future. At all. It's very different from the constant affirmation from God, even despite all His rebukes of them, that He would restore them as a nation. This is part of their knowledge of Him, so unless they reject Judaism and the Tanach, they can't accept this message of the Qur'an... no matter how true or beautiful many parts of it are.
 
Can you show me some of the ahadeeth reports you mentioned? The thing is though, I don't know whether I can trust them to be 100% accurate proof of things that happened in history, even if you think their messengers are judged to be trustworthy.

When `Abdullah bin Salam (a Jewish Rabbi) heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle"

Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." `Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her." On that `Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah." `Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O Allah's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me."

The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and `Abdullah went inside the house. Allah's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is `Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." Allah's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May Allah save him from it." Then `Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him.

(Saheeh al Bukhari - Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 546)


If you can't accept ahadeeth to be true, then you can't really accept any aspect of history, since the Hadeeth sciences are the most preserved pieces of information in history (through continuous chain of narrators all the way back to the Messenger of Allah himself), with each person in the chain scrutinized for their truthfulness and memory, and if any believer lied about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) even with a good intention - then they are threated by God with Hellfire for lying against His Messenger.




And I still think that many aspects of Judaism have always been common knowledge. People do talk about things like this all the time.

The Quran doesn't talk about common knowledge issues, it discusses Jewish history in extreme detail before the Messenger of God even had any contact with Jews.


The things at stake are just so high, and the commonsense understanding of Tanach just wouldn't lead a Jew of ancient times to expect to need to accept a claim like this in the future. At all. It's very different from the constant affirmation from God, even despite all His rebukes of them, that He would restore them as a nation. This is part of their knowledge of Him, so unless they reject Judaism and the Tanach, they can't accept this message of the Qur'an... no matter how true or beautiful many parts of it are.

I disagree, it just doesnt make sense that God would choose a people and then never send them a Messenger for over 2000+ years when He has continuously sent them Messengers in the past one after the other, and sometimes even simultaneously. Furthermore if Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mentioned by name even in the Jewish texts today, then the Rabbis are making excuses out of; ignorance, arrogance or jealousy (they are humans afterall).
 
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The origin of 3 of the world's major religions in the same tiny area of the world is amazing enough. There is nothing else like it in world history for such a concentration of spiritual development. But most bizarre of all, for me, is the history of cities like Sura and Pumpedita. These were cities of scholars, famed for their Jewish yeshiva. But later on, when first Christian and then Muslim overlords took control, it seems that many individual scholars actually changed employers as it were, and became scholars for a new faith. No wonder why there is such overlap.
 
The origin of 3 of the world's major religions in the same tiny area of the world is amazing enough. There is nothing else like it in world history for such a concentration of spiritual development. But most bizarre of all, for me, is the history of cities like Sura and Pumpedita. These were cities of scholars, famed for their Jewish yeshiva. But later on, when first Christian and then Muslim overlords took control, it seems that many individual scholars actually changed employers as it were, and became scholars for a new faith. No wonder why there is such overlap.


Muslims actually affirm and unite Christians and Jews what they differ on, which makes it the perfect final religion to unite them all.

Example: Jews (after a tribe name: of Juda) believed became divided and had many sects, even differing over their obedience to the Messengers of God. They denied Jesus because they never felt he was convincing enough, with the majority refusing him because they followed the ways of their elders.

The Christians (after the title: Christ) on the other hand raised Jesus to the level of God, while others said he is a 'son' of God - imitating the Greeks in their edifying people to the level of God. When Jesus was a Messenger like the previous Messengers' and he never claimed divinity himself.


Islam (meaning: submission to God) is a continuation of the legacy of all the Prophets; serving 1 God, accepting all the Messengers as the best of mankind who we should follow in goodness, and following the final promised Messenger who has been spoken about by the Messengers of old in both the Old and New Testament. It unites mankind (not just a specific race) to a covenant with God, similar to the covenant of Abraham and the Messengers before him.



So we see just by this simple comparison that Islam is really the way to unite all of mankind, those who know past scripture and even those who don't know. It has historically proven to be a truthful faith, and continues to live on today in its original form despite all the pressure from atheist (and in many aspects: satanic), christian and jewish global forces to try to distinguish the light of Islam.


It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, even if the disbelievers hate that
(Quran chapter 9)
 
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Even though Israel is a largely secular nation, with only a percentage of Jews being observant, that reflects the fact that people have a personal choice within the covenant. But it is the covenant law that preserves Israel as God's witnesses; when people stop observing Judaism, their descendants stop identifying as Jews within a few generations. As far as I know, pretty much all of the great-grandparents of all Jews today were observant Orthodox Jews. If that makes sense... the story unfolds over more than one generation at a time.

YusufNoor, it was just asked as a hypothetical because I sensed that you had an opinion about the way Orthodox Jewish tradition relates to the Tanach itself. Don't worry about it, I'll try and find better questions.

whatever questions you ask are fine. i realize that you are busy and also responding to multiple members.


I'm trying to find a simple, clear way of expressing what the oral Law means in the context of Judaism. This (really short) video helps in showing that the laws made by rabbis in our time are designed not to add to the Torah (God forbids it) but to help their communities really adhere to the spirit of the law, and the testimony that is contained in living observances. (Search: "Misconceptions about the Oral Law" "Jews4Judaism" on YouTube... I'm sorry I still can't post links.)

The same Rabbi in the video wrote elsewhere that "The Five Books do not present themselves as an independent legal text. They are written in the format of a narrative, with various laws woven into the narrative.

exactly, but at different times and different places. thus a sort of forensic analysis of the text is required.

In other words; the Torah does not read like the constitution of the United States which simply sets down an arrangement of laws. Instead the Torah records the conversations in which God commanded Moses one law or another. Sometimes the Torah may record a lengthy series of laws, but always in the narrative setting of a God talking to Moses (as in Leviticus 1:1-7:38) or Moses talking to the people (as in the book of Deuteronomy). The usage of the narrative format confirms the significance of these conversations as the basis of the Law. Furthermore, these narratives are not written in a way that would indicate that every last word of the conversation was included in the written record." So he believes that the people of Israel have an important understanding of the Torah, and that, as God promised, His testimony would be preserved in their midst. I already quoted from Isaiah 59: "As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My spirit, which is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord."

This article is really worth reading, if you get the time. (Search on Google: "1000 verses" "validating the oral law" )It's not actually as long as it looks on the scroll bar, because there are comments underneath :) If I hear your reaction to these things, I might have a clearer understanding of how to try and explain the relationship between carefully passed down traditions, written testimony of the law, and the jurisdiction of Rabbis in individual communities as they strive to come ever closer to the letter and the spirit of the Torah.

i'm not saying that i don't understand, i am saying that i disagree on what is legitimate text and what isn't. one example would be David, pbuh; as Muslims, we DO NOT and CANNOT accuse him of being an adulterer or a murderer, EVER! it is an act of unbelief for us to do so. IF somewhere either of those, the punishment laid is death by stoning, is it not? therefore, if if DID occur, whoever did it would be put to death. thus, it either didn't happen or the tribes of Israel were NOT practicing their religion.

One of the main reasons why the Torah does not allow a Jew to take Islam seriously is because of the commandment to do certain things for all their generations, forever.

perhaps your Rabbi is unaware of some things or he is adamantly anti-Islam. are you familiar with the term "God Fearers"? those that adhere to the 7 Noahide Laws? you actually are one such person. Muslims and Jews should be living in great harmony!


That was an unconditional command: they should always pass their story and their relationship with God down, through these laws and observances carefully kept. No questions asked, no suggestion that things might change in future. There were definitely blessings given for obedience and curses for disobedience, but I already quoted Deuteronomy 30:1-10... you can see the emphasis here on returning to the exact same commandments they were already given, and being restored again to the original covenant. Except that, like the prophets said, it would be a renewed covenant and a great blessing of restoration because of that. (Search on Google, with quotes: "Deuteronomy - Chapter 30 (Parshah Nitzavim) - Tanakh Online")

ESSAY Question! what is "missing" from Islam, that leads you to believe that Islam IS NOT said renewed covenant and great blessing?:statisfie

If you say that these chapters are changed and false, then to say other chapters from the Torah are proofs of Islam is to bring an indistinguishable double standard to the people of Israel in any generation. This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet.

Shalom,

If you say that these chapters are changed and false,

we say that there are additions and changes to the texts. we DO NOT say that there is nothing of value. in fact, we call Jews and Christians "People of the Book." we do this because those "books" STILL CONTAIN some valid Revelation.

then to say other chapters from the Torah are proofs of Islam is to bring an indistinguishable double standard to the people of Israel in any generation.

not true, as i just explained. because Qur'an and authentic Hadeeth ARE Revelation, ANY places where they agree with "Torah" confirms the authenticity of those passages. quite simple.

This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet

looking at Nehemiah 9:26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee, and they wrought great provocations.


the Jews were constantly abandoning the Law and slaying the Prophets. this is DE FACTO evidence that the Jews lost possession of whatever God wanted them to preserve. if you believe that those are the Word of God, you MUST believe it. you have NO choice in the matter. either you believe "God's Word" or you don't! what say you?

we must be mindful that maybe some well meaning souls added things to texts that they shouldn't have. for instance:

“‘The Lord declares to you that the Lord himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.’”

17 Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation.


if this statement is 100% true, please tell where Solomon's, pbuh, throne is.

i await your reply, my Sister in Humanity,

peace
 
I think that your question is that when God sent a new Prophet among the Arabs, does it mean that God broke His covenant with the Jews and made a covenant with a new set of people (non-Jews)?

The thing is that God didn't break His covenant with Jews. It was the Jews who broke the Covenant and went astray. After that the covenant no longer held as it couldn't be kept with undeserving people simply on the basis of race.

God says in the Quran:
O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me.
(2: 40)

what was the covenant and how did the Jews break it? Why do the Jews expect that the Covenant would be with the Jews only? Do the Jews feel that God broke the covenant when He chose a Prophet from non-Jews? Was that the breaking of the covenant? Did the Jews expect that Prophets would always be from among them and no-one else?

How did the Jews break the covenant?

The Jews had to obey the laws of God but they didn't. They killed many Prophets which was a great sin/crime. Prophet Jesus was prophesized to them but when he came to them with clear signs the Jews rejected him and even tried to kill him. At this point, the Jews became unbelievers because they disbelieved a Prophet of God. The covenant with the Jews no longer held for these people as they were now unbelievers and not the followers of Prophet Moses anymore.

Then when Prophet Muhammad (SAW) came to them with the final revelation (Quran) the Jews once again rejected him and the Quran and so continued to be disbelievers. Since they were disbelievers God transferred the high position from the children of Israel to the Muslims. (Note that the Jews had become disbelievers (kafirs) when they rejected Prophet Jesus who had been chosen from the children of Israel.)

Actually the term muslim is not just for the followers of Muhammad (SAW). It was also the term used for the followers of all the former prophets. In the Quran many Prophets called their followers "muslims" including Prophet Jesus. So, God's covenant was always with "Muslims." The children of Israel were the followers of Prophet Moses and so were "Muslims." They had been worthy of the Covenant and the high position God had given them while they were still Muslims. When they rejected the Prophets of God they became disbelievers (non-Muslims) and no longer were worthy of the high status or the covenant.

Whenever God sent a new Prophet, it was obligatory on all the people to believe in that Prophet. Those who didn't were no longer believers. When Prophet Jesus came, it was necessary that the Jews believe in him. When they didn't, they became non-believers (kafirs). When Prophet Muhammad (SAW) came, it was necessary that all, including Christians and Jews, to believe in him as a Prophet of God. When they didn't, they became kafirs. Those that did believe in him became Muslims.

What was the covenant of God with the jews? There are many verses referring to a covenant and the high status that had been given to the Children of Israel. I'll see if i can post some when I have the time. A large part of the second chapter of Quran (Al-Baqarah) has information about Jews as well as a portion of Chapter 7. Chapter Al-Baqarah (The Cow) is even named after the cow that the Jews had been commanded to slaughter. I recommend that you read the verses about Jews in the Quran.

One thing worth noticing is that God has used several terms to refer to the Jews and you should think of the significance of those terms. Two terms used are (Bani Israel) "children of Israel" and Yahoodi (Jews). The Jews were not initially called Jews but Muslims while they were followers of Moses. Only when they went astray (and denied Prophets such as Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad -SAW) did they become Jews. So while reading the verses think of the term that God has used to refer to the people being talked about and what it might mean. Was it "Children of Israel," or was it "Jews," or some other term? Was the covenant with the children of Israel or with the followers of Moses (Muslims) or with Jews? Those are points to think about.

You can read the verses at http://quran.com/2
 
You might also want to read the commentary of the verses about Jews/Children of Israel. You can do so at http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html

About the Covenant and the Jews high position, God had given them the high position of becoming leaders of mankind and source of guidance. But when they broke the covenant and became disbelievers, that high position was taken away from them and given to a new nation (non-Jews). This was one reason why the Jews didn't accept Prphet Muhammad (SAW) as the Messenger of God although they had been waiting for the birth of a Prophet. They had expected that the Prophet would be chosen amongst the Jews and were not happy that he was chosen from the Arabs.

Here are a few verses with commentary:

(2:87) And We gave Moses the Book and sent after him a train of Messengers in succession. Then We sent Jesus, son of Mary, with clear Signs and supported him with the Holy Spirit. *93 Then how is it that whenever a Messenger came to you with that which did not suit your lusts, you grew rebellious against him, and repudiated some and slew others.

*93. The 'spirit of holiness' signifies the knowledge derived through revelation. It also signifies the angel Gabriel who brought this revelation. It also denotes the holy spirit of Jesus, the spirit which God had endowed with angelic character.
The expression 'clear proofs' refers to those signs which are likely to convince a truth-seeking and truth-loving person that Jesus is a Prophet of God.

(2:88) They say, "Our hearts are secure [wrapped or hardened]." *94 Nay, the fact is that Allah has cursed them for their disbelief; so they are little disposed to believe.


*94. They said, in effect, that they were so staunch in their beliefs that their convictions would remain unaffected regardless of what was said. Such a claim is the hallmark of those bigots whose minds are seized by irrational prejudice. Nothing can be a matter of greater shame for human beings than the so-called firmness of conviction which they often boast of. What can be more foolish than adherence to inherited beliefs and convictions when their falseness is established by overwhelmingly strong arguments?

*95. Before the advent of the Prophet, the Jews were eagerly awaiting a Prophet whose coming had been prophesied by their own Prophets. In fact, the Jews used to pray for his advent so that the dominance of the unbelievers could come to an end and the age of their own dominance he ushered in. The people of Madina were witnesses to the fact that these same Jewish neighbours of theirs had yearned for the advent of such a Prophet. They often used to say: 'People may oppress us today as they wish, but when our awaited Prophet comes, we will settle our scores with our oppressors.'

Since the people of Madina had themselves heard such statements they were inclined to embrace the religion of the Prophet all the more readily lest their Jewist neighbours supersede them in acquiring this honour. It was therefore astonishing for them to find that when the promised Prophet did appear those same Jews who had so eagerly looked forward to welcoming him turned into his greatest enemies.

The statement 'and they recognized it' is confirmed by several contemporaneous events. The most authentic evidence in this connection is that of Safiyah, a wife of the Prophet, who was herself the daughter of one learned Jewish scholar (Huyayy b. Akhtab) and the niece of another (Abu Yasir). She says that when the Prophet migrated to Madina both her father and uncle went to meet him and conversed with him for quite a while. When they returned home, she heard the following conversation:
Uncle:Is he really the same Prophet whose advent has been prophesied in our Scriptures?
Father: By God, he is.
Uncle: Do you believe that?
Father: Yes..
Uncle. Then what do you intend to do?
Father: 1 will continue to oppose him and will not let his claim prevail as long as I live.
(Ibn Hishim, Sirah, eds., Mustafa al-Saqqa' et al., 2 vols., II edition, Cairo, 137511955, see vol. 1, pp. 518 f. See also Ibn IshAq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. and notes by A. Guillaume, London, Oxford University Press, 1955, pp. 241 f. - Ed.)




(2:142) Of course, the foolish people will say, "What has turned them abruptly away from the giblah towards which they formerly used to turn their faces in prayer?" *142 Tell them, O Messenger, `'East and West all belong to Allah; He shows the Right Way to anyone He wills." *143 Thus have We made you a Community of the "Golden Mean" so that you may be witnesses in regard to mankind and the Messenger may be a witness in regard to you. *144

*142. After his migration to Madina the Prophet continued to pray in the direction of Jerusalem for between sixteen and seventeen months. Subsequently, he received the order to pray in the direction of the Ka'bah. (See verse 144 below)

*143. This is the first answer to the objections of these ignorant people. Their narrow minds and limited vision led them to undue attachment to such formalities as the direction and locale of Prayer. They presumably conceived God to be confined to a particular direction. In reply to their absurd objection the first thing which was explained was that all directions belong to God. Fixing any particular direction for Prayer does not mean that God is confined to that direction. All those who have been favoured with God's true guidance rise above such limitations of outlook so that it is easy for them to grasp the universal verities of religion. (See also nn. 115 and 116 above.)


(2:143) We had appointed the former giblah towards which you used to turn your face merely to test who would follow the Messenger and who would turn back. *145 It was indeed a hard test but not for those who had been blessed with Guidance from Allah. Allah will not let go to waste this faith of yours; rest assured that He is full of pity and mercy for mankind.


*144. This constitutes the proclamation appointing the religious community (ummah) consisting of the followers of Muhammad to religious guidance and leadership of the world.

' And it is thus', which precedes this proclamation, contains two allusions. It alludes, in the first place, to that Divine Guidance which enabled the followers of Muhammad to know the Straight Way so that they could attain progress to the point of being proclaimed 'the community of the middle way' (or 'the mid-most community' or 'the community justly balanced' - Ed.) In the second place there is an allusion to the change in the direction of Prayer from Jerusalem to the Ka'bah. People of limited intelligence could see no significance in this change of direction although the substitution of Jerusalem by the Ka'bah amounted to the removal of the Children of Israel from their position of world leadership and their replacement by the ummah of Muhammad (peace be on him).

The Arabic expression which we have translated as 'the community of the middle way' is too rich in meaning to find an adequate equivalent in any other language. It signifies that distinguished group of people which follows the path of justice and equity, of balance and moderation, a group which occupies a central position among the nations of the world so that its friendship with all is based on righteousness and justice and none receives its support in wrong and injustice.

The purpose of creating 'the community of the middle way', according to this Qur'anic verse, is to make it stand as witness 'before all mankind and the Messenger might be a witness before you'. What this rneans is that when the whole of mankind is called to account, the Prophet, as God's representative, will stand witness to the fact that he had communicated to the Muslims and had put into practice the teachings postulating sound beliefs, righteous conduct and a balanced system of life which he had received from on high. The Muslims, acting on behalf of the Prophet after his return to the mercy of God, will he asked to bear the same witness before the rest of mankind and to say that they had spared no effort in either communioating to mankind what the Prophet had communicated to them, or in exemplifying in their own lives what the Prophet had, by his own conduct, translated into actual practice.

This position of standing witness before all mankind on behalf of God, which has been conferred on this community, amounts to its being invested with the leadership of all mankind. This is at once a great honour and a heavy responsibility. For what it actually means is that just as the Prophet served as a living example of godliness and moral rectitude, of equity and fair play before the Muslim community, so is the Muslim community required to stand vis-a-vis the whole world. What is expected of this community is that it should be able to make known, both by word and deed, the meaning of godliness and righteousness, of equity and fairplay.

Furthermore. just as the Prophet had been entrusted with the heavy responsibility of conveying to the Muslims the guidance which he had received. in a like manner a heavy responsibility has been laid on the Muslims to communicate this guidance to all mankind. If the Muslims fail to establish before God that they did their duty in conveying to mankind the guidance they had received through the Prophet they will be taken to task seriously and their honourable position as the leaders of the whole world, far from being of any help to them, will spell their disaster. They will be held responsible along with the protagonists of evil for all the errors of belief and conduct which have spread during their term of leadership. They will have to face the grim question: What were they doing when the world was convulsed by storms of transgression, injustice and error?

*145. One purpose of this change in the direction of Prayer was to find out who was blinkered by irrational prejudices and chained by chauvinistic attachment to land and blood, and who, having liberated himself from those bonds, was capable of rising to the heights and grasping the Truth.
On the one hand were the Arabs who were steeped in their national and racial arrogance. For them, taking Jerusalem as the direction of their Prayer (as originally practised by the Prophet) was too hard a blow to their national vanity to be accepted with equanimity. On the other hand, the Jews were essentially no different. They, too, were obsessed with racial pride so that it was difficult for them to accept any other than the direction of Prayer which they had inherited from the past. How could the people whose hearts were full of such idols respond to the call of the Messenger of God? Hence, God saw to it that the worshippers of such idols were distinguished from the genuine worshippers of God by first fixing Jerusalem as the direction of Prayer. This was bound to alienate all those who had worshipped the idol of Arabianism. Later, the fixing of the Ka'bah as the direction of Prayer led to the alienation of those who were engrossed in the worship of the idol of Israel. Thus there were left with the Prophet only, those who truly worshipped none but the One True God.
 
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This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet.

If the Jews have criteria by which they accept Prophets, it would be interesting to know what they are (as currently written in their scriptures). What is it, that made them accept Moses but reject Jesus, blaspheme some, reject others and kill yet others (peace be upon them all)? What criteria, according to the Jews, were these prophets of God missing, such that they deserved being rejected/blasphemed/killed? I honestly have no idea what the Jewish scriptures say are the criteria or test for prophethood, or indeed if they say anything on the matter.

Thank you so much Insaanah. I know that you meant that Jesus was neither God nor simply another human being, but a great prophet who deserves our respect. My question would be... how am I supposed to know that? You're saying that it's true, but you believe that because Islam considers him a prophet. Unless I can accept the witness of Islam for other reasons, I have no way of knowing that Jesus was in fact a special person and that the most balanced approach to him is to honour him as a great and noble man.

I never met him, and different religions imagine him so differently... so how could I know that he was any different from any other person?

The prophet it should have been the hardest to reject for any reason at all, was rejected by Jews. They used to keep asking for miracles, so when God sent them a messenger born miraculously without any male intervention, one who performed miracles, such as bringing the dead to life with God's permission, they still disbelieved, even though he was known for his nobility, lineage, and upright character. Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him), who came to all the Prophets, also came to him. And Jesus (peace be upon him) did not come claiming he was inventing a new religion, but rather, confirming what came before in the Torah, and God revealed the scripture called the Injeel to him.

When God sent a Prophet, it was not at all difficult for people (lay people or the scholarly elite) to know if that person was just a fame-seeking imposter, or a true prophet, even without specifically laid out criteria. It seems that the Children of Israel were the only ones that faced such a problem. Why? Possibly because the scriptures were altered in that regard such that no prophet, even if true, would be easily accepted by the masses (that altering cannot be blamed on God not preserving a scripture). Or, even if the scriptures weren't changed in that particular regard, the reasons in the penultimate paragraph still were true.

The Qur'an, on many occasions, in many different verses, says that this Prophet (Muhammad, peace be upon him) and the book revealed to him come confirming the truth of what came before, as the Torah, in it's time, as revealed by God, was a guidance and a light for the Children of Israel. The scripture revealed to Jesus (peace be upon him) was also a guidance and a light for the Children of Israel, and came confirming what was before it. The Qur'an continues, confirms, and finalises, in it's last and final form, with any misconceptions cleared, the original message and guidance from God, preserved for all humanity.

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto.. (5:44, part)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)

And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: "Allah has not revealed anything unto a human being". Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling. (6:91)

The Jews themselves broke their covenant with God due to their rebellion:

And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.

Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
(4:154-156)

Yet they had once been preferred above all the people of the world:

O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds. (2:47)

The Jews at the time of the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) knew that this was the messenger that had been promised, according to what was laid out in their scriptures, but could not bring themselves to accept him because he was not of the same race, and because, they still fancied themselves as the chosen people, and could not bear that this position of prominence amongst people would come to an end.

The sincere Jews and Christians at that time, who had been following their own scriptures, and then recognised Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the foretold messenger sent by God, followed their scriptures where they were told to follow him and the guidance sent with him, and thus became Muslims. They hadn't left their religion, but rather followed it in the utmost way, such that they were now following an original unchanged scripture, and what had been required of people by God since the beginning of time. This was not based on race, or place, but universal submission to God.

Peace.
 
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I'm going to reply here soon, and looking forward to it- a couple more days till I finish exams :statisfie I think there are some really interesting thoughts in the recent comments. Not quite sure how I'll go about responding to all the comments I haven't yet got back to, but I'm sure it will be worth the effort.

Blessings.
 

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