Prayer questions?

[beleiver]

I keep reading prayers must be said only in Arabic even by those that do not speak or understand Arabic..Where in the Quran does it say this, or is it from a Hadith? Or a later man made rule?

Is this true of all sects and schools of thought in Islam. Do all sects say the same Salah?

Also looking for info of how the Salah evolved to what it is now..Any links to historical studies would be welcome..

And are people that declare (Sahada?) belief in one God and the messenger Mohamed, pray at the prescribed times in their own words with the intent the Quran subscribes and follow the other pillars still considered Muslim?

 

[Bobbyflay23]

Because there is a Hadith that says that roslah sali Ali wassalm said that copy my prayer exactly the words and the way I prostrate and my acting everything also there is proof in the Quran i can not quote it because I don't remember it but there are many Hadith and Quran ayas that say must pray in Arabic buutt you can make duas which isn't obligatory it's just praying to god or you can just talk to him in English or your native language you must only pray your 5 obligatory prayers in Arabic also if you do extra (nawafil or sunnah or Witr prayers) just basically any time you prostrate it must be in Arabic I guess if you don't know Arabic until you learn all the ayas you need you can just bow down the ways your suppose to do and praise allah in English 5 times a day and then ounce you learn everything in Arabic you can start praying in Arabic but your prostration (obligatory prayers) will not be accepted unless in the Quranic Arabic

 

[beleiver]

Thanks for that^ If any one can find a link and source to that Hadith?

For now will continue to learn in English..Kind of really hard when not living among Arab speakers to know if my pronunciations are correct etc..When i hear book learned foreigners speak in foreign land i find generally they are not so understood by local dialects and accents, and surely languages change over millennia?

I feel i am benefiting from praying with this Islamic influence in my prayers but struggling to understand why every Muslim must pray exactly the same way..It doesnet really resonate with me as i have always felt God answers my prayers anyway..
When surely it is the intent of our hearts thats most important, and repetitive Praying to please man was warned about by Jesus.

Also questioning this as i keep discovering not all Muslim sects around the world pray the same.

 

[aaj]

It's simple.

Quran was revealed in Arabic. Quran is the literal word of Allah. By reciting the Quran you are reciting the literal words of Allah as He revealed them. Any other language is a translation of Arabic and translation of those words and their meaning. It is not the original authentic material, it is mere translation of a man.

Salah / prayer is ibadah / worship. You worship in the original language the message came in, not translate it to another language according to the finite understanding of that human who translated it. You can memorize the translation for your understanding if you like but recitation must be done in it's original form. If you are that concerned then learn Arabic, it's not that hard.

Prayer in any other language will invalidate it and just won't count. You would still be a Muslim but your prayers will be rejected and you will be rejecting the Sunnah by inventing your own way of practicing the deen. If your intention is to introduce this bidah then the end result is not good and the subject of being still a Muslim is questionable but if you engage in this practice out of easement then it could be a sin as a deliberate attempt to reject the sunnah and go your own way, not to mention the sin of not praying since your prayers are rejected.

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

Thanks for that^ If any one can find a link and source to that Hadith?

For now will continue to learn in English..Kind of really hard when not living among Arab speakers to know if my pronunciations are correct etc..When i hear book learned foreigners speak in foreign land i find generally they are not so understood by local dialects and accents, and surely languages change over millennia?

I feel i am benefiting from praying with this Islamic influence in my prayers but struggling to understand why every Muslim must pray exactly the same way..It doesnet really resonate with me as i have always felt God answers my prayers anyway..
When surely it is the intent of our hearts thats most important, and repetitive Praying to please man was warned about by Jesus.

Also questioning this as i keep discovering not all Muslim sects around the world pray the same.

Narrated Abu Sulaiman and Malik bin Huwairith:



We came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and we were (a few) young men of approximately equal age and stayed with him for twenty nights. Then he thought that we were anxious for our families, and he asked us whom we had left behind to look after our families, and we told him. He was kindhearted and merciful, so he said, "Return to your families and teach them (religious knowledge) and order them (to do good deeds) and offer your prayers in the way you saw me offering my prayers, and when the stated time for the prayer becomes due, then one of you should pronounce its call (i.e. the Adhan), and the eldest of you should lead you in prayer.



[Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith No. 6008]

 

[beleiver]

Thanks for that^ but he is not really saying explicitly it has to be in Arabic..'In this way' is not clearley saying to copy word for word, it could mean in this manner, like this, similar to this..Its rather vague.

Jesus said 'when you pray, pray like this' after he denounced the Hypocrite clergy and their orthodox methods of repetitive prayer that had lost its meaning..He in my interpretation was saying use your own words but this is the essence of it, include these intentions for these reasons..

I am not saying there is anything hypocritical in Shala or its lost its meaning but i really dont get why it has to be in a Arabic? I do think it can lose its meaning when its not fully understood, and i do know what i understand to be hypocrites in Islam force a strict prayer regime to sects on Haaj that dont pray exactly like they say, wondering if it is a modern ruling pushed by a certain sect?

In the early days of Islam did people all over learn Arabic? or did they pray in their native tongue?

Any more Hadiths or reading regarding this any one?

 

[Supernova]

Thanks for that^ but he is not really saying explicitly it has to be in Arabic..'In this way' is not clearley saying to copy word for word, it could mean in this manner, like this, similar to this..Its rather vague.

Jesus said 'when you pray, pray like this' after he denounced the Hypocrite clergy and their orthodox methods of repetitive prayer that had lost its meaning..He in my interpretation was saying use your own words but this is the essence of it, include these intentions for these reasons..

I am not saying there is anything hypocritical in Shala or its lost its meaning but i really dont get why it has to be in a Arabic? I do think it can lose its meaning when its not fully understood, and i do know what i understand to be hypocrites in Islam force a strict prayer regime to sects on Haaj that dont pray exactly like they say, wondering if it is a modern ruling pushed by a certain sect?

In the early days of Islam did people all over learn Arabic? or did they pray in their native tongue?

Any more Hadiths or reading regarding this any one?

Asalaamualaykum Believer/Jedi (or whatever you are respectively )

The issue that you have is whereby you are looking for one solitary statement to prove an issue in Islam. Had it been this easy every Tom, Dick, Harry and Sally today would have all qualified to be clerics.

In other words we have detailed principles as to how we deduce something within the faith. This is an entire study in itself compromising of many subjects and thats only to understand the Arabic part (Tafseer). It is then an entirely different subject as to how Rulings are derived and proven (Fiqh) from the very Arabic context (Be it the Quran or Hadith).

If you want to understand the reasons as to how and why rulings are derived you would have to verbally speak to Scholars so that a full explanation can be given including counter-questions from yourself. If you take your time to learn the Quran in Arabic under the guide of a scholar then you will understand the depth as to why the issue was never contested as islam expanded into non-Arabic speaking countries.

Word of advice for you - you would be very mistaken to think that anything or any angle of a argumentative question from you was never thought and dealt with by our faith and scholars. It has been 1400 plus years now whereby Islam expanded to lands that greater minds than yours.

 

[azc]

I keep reading prayers must be said only in Arabic even by those that do not speak or understand Arabic..Where in the Quran does it say this, or is it from a Hadith? Or a later man made rule?Is this true of all sects and schools of thought in Islam. Do all sects say the same Salah?Also looking for info of how the Salah evolved to what it is now..Any links to historical studies would be welcome..And are people that declare (Sahada?) belief in one God and the messenger Mohamed, pray at the prescribed times in their own words with the intent the Quran subscribes and follow the other pillars still considered Muslim?

all Muslims pray salah in Arabic at prescribed time. Basically salah is same.

 

[beleiver]

Thanks for the replies.
I understand why it would be best to say the prayers in Arabic, when listening in Arabic there is a certain harmonious beauty that resonates with the soul, words and their sounds carry a frequency.. when said out loud in English it doesn't have the same vibration, it sounds dumb in comparison.

On the other hand, when said using the inner voice in ones mind, its the meaning of the words that resonate with that beauty, its the harmony and resonance of ones heart and intentions that would connect to god..I still think one would have to be completely fluent in a language to get the same effect.. Clear Intent to me seems most important when i pray.

Regarding the notion only prayers are heard when done in Arabic, who can possibly say? A prayer is between God and the person praying, no one else..I have been praying in my own way for a good few years now, and in all honesty i have what i need, they have been answered, i am very content with my lot alamdulula..
one could argue i just been lucky , but can luck bring true happiness and that luck was what i prayed for?..Who can say otherwise? Every ones experience is their Truth, and prayer is the only absolute Truth i can honestly say is True , every thing else is an educated guess.

Am i missing something?
When a Muslim prays, he does in his inner voice of his mind, not out loud, or either as he chooses?

My problem is not having time or the peace to pray as i normally do or have done, this is why i am attempting Salah, as it does seem a efficient way to clear the mind and stay focused..I certainly dont have time and the peace to learn a new language without neglecting my family duties and becoming a stressed out Dad whose kids watch TV all day while i study..Which would be worst kind of sin than praying in English perhaps?

Inshalla , i will get to ask these questions in person with an Iman (if thats the right word) as i learned today we are getting a Mosque in Town, Alhamdulillah..before the nearest was around 100km away.

But at the end of the day, i really only want to Obey God, I do find it odd the exact prayer methods are not in the Quran if its so important?

Whats more i thought Shia and Sufis pray differently and there are differences among them, i thought some Sunni Muslims in India pray in their own language or some how differently?

Any more links to the history and /or differences in Prayer and such is welcome..

 

[Zeal]

When the prophet (saw) said say "bismillah" he did not tell us to say "in the name of Allah"

Usually the English and Arabic have subtle to huge differences, but nonetheless differences.

This is sufficient proof to know why we must speak Arabic in salah

[MENTION=40460]beleiver[/MENTION]

 

[beleiver]

When the prophet (saw) said say "bismillah" he did not tell us to say "in the name of Allah"

Usually the English and Arabic have subtle to huge differences, but nonetheless differences.

This is sufficient proof to know why we must speak Arabic in salah

@beleiver

Not really sufficient proof, he just revealed the Truth in his language, he was hardly going to translate it into languages that didnt even exist..

Another thing..Arabic and the dialects around in the time of Mohamed are surely not the same as now? dialects and whole meanings of words and phrases can change dramatically over time location..

I am starting to come to the conclusion this rule is man made and mere tradition, not Gods universal law as i can not find any viable source..especially since Jesus was a Prophet and spoke a different language and his message though distorted was passed on translated through other languages..Its surely the message and intention thats most important, though i respect the why preserving the prayer in the original language as spoken by the Prophet does preserve his message and intent..

 

[Sho Islam]

[FONT=&quot]My brother

I think it is best that you sit down with a knowledgeable or even better an Islamic scholar if possible to obtain the specific evidences for why we must pray salah in arabic.


Having said that I do want to raise a few points after reading your posts so far.


Firstly you've mentioned you don't understand why such an important thing such as this can be left out of the Quran. The Quran cannot be used in isolation, it is accompanied with the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW), in fact the Quran doesn't mention or tell us in detail the order in which we need to bow and prostrate and how many times in each prayer. These aspects are also fundamental to the prayer rather all these aspects come from the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) and not the Quran.


Secondly you've mentioned your looking for a specific evidence that proves that we must pray in arabic and then you attempted to interpret the meaning of the hadith.

"Thanks for that^ but he is not really saying explicitly it has to be in Arabic..'In this way' is not clearley saying to copy word for word, it could mean in this manner, like this, similar to this..Its rather vague."

Now this one hopefully will be answered fully by the scholar/imam but I want to note that it is not correct to try and interpret evidences yourself unless you have studied the relevant Islamic sciences. Islamic scholars spend years learning before they are even allowed to give a fatwa/Islamic ruling just as surgeons spends years studying and practising before they are allowed to carry out a surgery themselves. I recommend that you try to read some short articles on different Islamic sciences such as usul ul fiqh, mustalah al Hadith and many more just to see how deep each of these areas are. Just as a taster, there are detailed descriptions of what makes a Hadith (Sahih) sound and what makes it (Daeef) weak.


Unfortunately due to this misunderstanding within our community we find people misconstruing Islam and it's texts to serve their own purposes and misguiding others into that too, some can even be as lethal as the justifying terrorism!


Next you mentioned that language changes over time. That's completely true however even though we now have many dialects of arabic, we still have the classical FusHa arabic preserved, which is the type of arabic the Quran is written in. That is because seeking knowledge and proof was something that was encouraged by the Prophet (SAW) himself and that is why Islamic scholarship started earl, essentially during his (SAW) time and continued in strength especially in the earlier generations which led to arabic (FusHa) as a language itself being preserved not just the Quran and Hadith.


One final point I want to mention is that you said that Arabic will take you a long time to learn and it will take you away from your family. Firstly it is not necessary that you learn Arabic as a language rather it is necessary that you memorise only a number of very some chapters of the Quran and a few other arabic duas from the sunnah to fulfil ur obligation to Allah. This shouldn't be too taxing as the smallest chapter of the Quran is only 3 verses long!


I know that you mentioned that you don't feel comfortable with Muslims praying exactly the same way however shouldn't it be for Allah to decide how we all should pray to Him and not the other way around?







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Thanks for that^ but he is not really saying explicitly it has to be in Arabic..'In this way' is not clearley saying to copy word for word, it could mean in this manner, like this, similar to this..Its rather vague.

 

[Butterfly]

Try to learn Arabic. Barakah (blessings) is more when we strive to please Allah and Allah told us reciting 1 letter of the Quran is equivalent to 10 hasanat! Imagine how many hasanat you will accumulate once you learn Arabic and recite looong looong surahs in prayer.

 

[azc]

I keep reading prayers must be said only in Arabic even by those that do not speak or understand Arabic..Where in the Quran does it say this, or is it from a Hadith? Or a later man made rule?

Is this true of all sects and schools of thought in Islam. Do all sects say the same Salah?

Also looking for info of how the Salah evolved to what it is now..Any links to historical studies would be welcome..

And are people that declare (Sahada?) belief in one God and the messenger Mohamed, pray at the prescribed times in their own words with the intent the Quran subscribes and follow the other pillars still considered Muslim?

there is consensus of all scholars to pray the salah in Arabic whether or not one understands Arabic as we've clear msg '' pray as you saw me praying'' (bukhari)

shahada is also given in Arabic while becoming a part of Islam, however, translation of shahadah is necessary to be known in our own language because ''iqrarum bil lisani wa tasdiqum bil qalb'' (I accept Islam with my tongue and testify with my heart) isn't possible until we understand what we say and what we witness.

 

[azc]

Try to learn Arabic. Barakah (blessings) is more when we strive to please Allah and Allah told us reciting 1 letter of the Quran is equivalent to 10 hasanat! Imagine how many hasanat you will accumulate once you learn Arabic and recite looong looong surahs in prayer.

learning Arabic language is a different thing.

Reward on recitation is given even without understanding what we recite

 

[ZeeshanParvez]

Every learned Muslim knows that you must recite the Quran when you stand in prayer.

If you don't recite Surah al-Fatiha your prayer is invalid.

The Quran is the Kalaam of Allaah. He revealed it in Arabic. His Kalaam is His Kalaam so long as it remains in Arabic.

A translation is exactly that. It is a translation. It is not the Kalām of Allāh.It is not the Qur'ān.

You have to recite in Arabic because for prayer to be valid you have to recite
the Qur'ān and the Qur'ān is the Qur'ān only so long as it is in Arabic. Otherwise, its a translation.

Allāh ordered you to recite the Qur'ān in prayer and not a translation.

 

[Zeal]

Not really sufficient proof, he just revealed the Truth in his language, he was hardly going to translate it into languages that didnt even exist..

Another thing..Arabic and the dialects around in the time of Mohamed are surely not the same as now? dialects and whole meanings of words and phrases can change dramatically over time location..

I am starting to come to the conclusion this rule is man made and mere tradition, not Gods universal law as i can not find any viable source..especially since Jesus was a Prophet and spoke a different language and his message though distorted was passed on translated through other languages..Its surely the message and intention thats most important, though i respect the why preserving the prayer in the original language as spoken by the Prophet does preserve his message and intent..

Here, you are doing dangerous things and assuming that of which you do not know. How can you know?
We take what is revealed and accept it as it is. And as it is Qur'an was only ever revealed in the same language with the one set words.
Also, i'd like to say that Qur'an is the speech of Allah not the speech of musa or jesus (as) although it talks about what they said.


There were other languages also but none other than arabic the Qur'an was recited as.

Dialects do change but much remains the same and scholars have worked by the permission of Allah to record how Arabic was spoken at the time