Pretty funny debate about the trinity (a part of it)

[Snow]

 

[Abz2000]

lol,
funny also how they try to pin on God the blame for the crime that the pagan romans and munafiqs from among the jews of the time attempted to commit, a crime from which God saved the person.

anyways, does this look like a man who's a glutton for punishment or does it look like a man who accepted the wisdom of God and trusted in Him, yet admonished the criminals and made clear where the blame sat? (trust in Allah and tie your camel).

1After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.*2Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.*3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.*4For*there is*no man*that*doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.*5For neither did his brethren believe in him.*6Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.*7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.*8Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.*9When he had said these words unto them, he abode*still*in Galilee.10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.*11Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?*12And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.13Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.14Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.*15And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?*16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.*17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or*whether*I speak of myself.*18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.19Did not Moses give you the law, and*yet*none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?*21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.*22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.*23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?*24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.Is Jesus the Messiah?25Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?*26But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?*27Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.*28Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.*29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.*30Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.*31And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this*man*hath done?32The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.*33Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and*then*I go unto him that sent me.*34Ye shall seek me, and shall not find*me: and where I am,*thither*ye cannot come.35Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?36What*manner of*saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find*me: and where I am,*thither*ye cannot come?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Snow,

Our Muslim friend in the video seemed to have all the logical replies, I agree with him when he said, God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven.

But the sacrifice of Jesus leaves a profound feeling for us Christians. Imagine being trapped in a burning building, and a stranger risks his life to save you, later this stranger dies but he has saved your life. You are left with a feeling of gratitude, but you are helpless to repay that stranger, you then find out he was a very kind person, he helped people in need and many people benefited from his charitable work.

You cannot repay him directly, but you could be left with a need to try and carry on his good work.

If Jesus has forgiven us through his death, it stands as an example for us, we should also be merciful and forgiving to those who we need to forgive. As we know in this world, to forgive others is not a natural or easy choice to make.

Blessings and peace be with you,

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

trust in Allah and tie your camel

Most of the time this makes sense, but there are times when you cannot tie the camel, but your only hope is to trust in Allah.

I am part of a Street Pastor team, we wonder the town until 3 - 4 am on a Saturday morning after the pubs and clubs have shut, we come into contact with drunks, drugs, angry people, very troubled people, fights and of course lots of wonderful people too.

People often say we should have a black belt in karate, wear a stab vest and carry a Taser gun, but this misses the point. Some of us are in our sixties and seventies, we don't do running or self defence, it would be pointless to think of this as an option, the better option would be to stay indoors and go to bed.

However, amazing things happen, when we put our trust in God and go, we walk in the middle of fights, we are just there, and there is little we can do, but somehow these fights come to a stop, and afterwards we receive lots of handshakes and thanks.

We were out yesterday morning around 3 am by the kebab shop, a crowd of drunk football supporters were coming towards the three of us, some were swearing and looking for a fight, their team has not been doing well. When the most angry man approached us, he changed, he said hello Street Pastors shook all our hands several times, said he had been in prison and was still looking to hit someone. I said I could see a kind side to him, and in years to come he would be out helping other people, he shook all our hands again, leaving calmer.

We stopped outside the kebab shop run by Muslims, as the noisy football crowd went for their food, we have been around when people make racist and anti Muslim remarks. We side with the Muslims, we try and absorb their anger, often bystanders will join us and make things hard for the racist.

In the spirit of trusting in our God,

Eric

 

[Abz2000]

Eric, your logic sounds cozy, charitable and nice, however, it will soon become clear to you that the logic of leaving the planet along with the balance of power to the worst of criminals (sinners) is not directly beneficial, the decent people who abide by God's law are then put to harm and made to suffer.

From another perspective, there is logic in such an act, the people who may yet be confused are able to see clearly the hazardous effect of investing authority to darkness and sin due to the fact that it affects them in a way that it didn't before and the previous state of carelessness is done away with.

ultimately, from an even higher perspective, rather than be an idol shepherd with a darkened right eye, the burden is lifted from the mortal and the stewardship is returned to Almighty God and He becomes the watcher over the affairs of the planet, and He is the best observer and the most just in taking account. the event of the Murder of John, Zeccharias, and attempted murder of Jesus are however IN NO WAY to be blamed upon God, such a perversion is clearly refuted even in the new testament. it only proves the charge against the infidels.

So you can see, there's never a clear answer to the events of the unseen.
what is clear though is that it is in the best interests of mankind that they submit to their Creator.

here are some explanations of such perspectives:

29“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.*30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’*31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.*32Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

*34Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.*
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.*

36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.*38Look, your house is left to you desolate.

*39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’c*”

Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.*8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.*
9But he said to me,“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
......
....
21. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”a*
2 I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time.
I now repeat it while absent:
On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others,

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.*12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.*13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.*
15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”
*He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.*

Prophet Mohammad*صلى الله عليه وسلم*said:*"In the meantime, while the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down*the Messiah son of Mary*(Jesus*عليه السلام). He (Jesus*عليه السلام*) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower),*dressed in the two yellow garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels.
When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down.
Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches, and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight, will fall dead.
Then, the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the*gate of Lud*, and will kill him."*
(Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmizi, Ibn Majah).

When Allah said:
O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.
Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

26.*Said Pharaoh: "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"
27.*Moses said: "I have indeed called upon my Lord and your Lord (for protection) from every arrogant one who believes not in the Day of Account!"
28.*A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah.?- when he has indeed come to you with Clear (Signs) from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is (the sin of) his lie: but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the (calamity) of which he warns you: Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!
29.*"O my People! Yours is the dominion this day: Ye have the upper hand in the land: but who will help us from the Punishment of Allah, should it befall us?" Pharaoh said: "I but point out to you that which I see (myself); Nor do I guide you but to the Path of Right!"
30.*Then said the man who believed: "O my people! Truly I do fear for you something like the Day (of disaster) of the Confederates (in sin)!-
31.*"Something like the fate of the People of Noah, the 'Ad, and the Thamud, and those who came after them: but Allah never wishes injustice to his Servants.
32.*"And O my people! I fear for you a Day when there will be Mutual calling (and wailing),-
33.*"A Day when ye shall turn your backs and flee: No defender shall ye have from Allah. Any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is none to guide...
34.*"And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come: At length, when he died, ye said: 'No apostle will Allah send after him.' thus doth Allah leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt,-
35.*"(Such) as dispute about the Signs of Allah, without any authority that hath reached them, grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of Allah and of the Believers. Thus doth Allah, seal up every heart - of arrogant and obstinate Transgressors."
36.*Pharaoh said: "O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means-37.*"The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the Allah of Moses: But as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!" Thus was made alluring, in Pharaoh's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the Path; and the plot of Pharaoh led to nothing but perdition (for him).
38.*The man who believed said further: "O my people! Follow me: I will lead you to the Path of Right.
39.*"O my people! This life of the present is nothing but (temporary) convenience: It is the Hereafter that is the Home that will last.
40.*"He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.
41.*"And O my people! How (strange) it is for me to call you to Salvation while ye call me to the Fire!
42.*"Ye do call upon me to blaspheme against Allah, and to join with Him partners of whom I have no knowledge; and I call you to the Exalted in Power, Who forgives again and again!"
43.*"Without doubt ye do call me to one who is not fit to be called to, whether in this world, or in the Hereafter; our return will be to Allah. and the Transgressors will be Companions of the Fire!
44.*"Soon will ye remember what I say to you (now), My (own) affair I commit to Allah. for Allah (ever) watches over His Servants."
45.*Then Allah saved him from (every) ill that they plotted (against him), but the burnt of the Penalty encompassed on all sides the People of Pharaoh.

98.*He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true."
99.*On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.
100.*And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-
101.*(Unbelievers) whose eyes had been under a veil from remembrance of Me, and who had been unable even to hear.
102.*Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me?
Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.
103.*Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
104.*"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
105.*They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.
106.*That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
107.*As to those who believe and work righteous deeds, they have, for their entertainment, the Gardens of Paradise,
108.*Wherein they shall dwell (for aye): no change will they wish for from them.
109.*Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."
110.*Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

no point pretending we know how things are going to weave out, or that we know the whys and whos, God knows best, the only thing we can know is that accepting the truth and humbly submitting to Allah will benefit eternally.and that those who die in a state of infidelity to God will lose and be humiliated.

but let us NEVER make the mistake of falsely accusing Allah for the crimes of the oppressors.
the guidance has been made clear, and Allah is the best of planners.

claiming that jesus died heroically to save the lives of the sinners is an obvious fallacy, for what is the purpose of life on earth when the eternal soul is left to be doomed in hell, that would be a bad and losing score to declare when chilling with other Prophets who managed to achieve high by getting so many into paradise.

anyways, i clarified due to the purposeful confusion and shifting of blame that's apparent.
the instruction was to obey God and submit in Islam, and if a decision was taken to decline, then to not make plans confusingly dark and dubious, it appears that i smell chicken, know that the person in question will willingly leave if a clear request is made, even if it means getting on an unpiloted passengerless aircraft.
for it was told to you before that some days are sometimes shortened so that souls may live.

 

[Abz2000]

10.*Then there are among men such as say, "We believe in Allah.;
but when they suffer affliction in (the cause of) Allah, they treat men's oppression as if it were the Wrath of Allah.
And if help comes (to thee) from thy Lord, they are sure to say, "We have (always) been with you!"
Does not Allah know best all that is in the hearts of all creation?
11.*And Allah most certainly knows those who believe, and as certainly those who are Hypocrites.
12.*And the Unbelievers say to those who believe: "Follow our path, and we will bear (the consequences) of your faults." Never in the least will they bear their faults: in fact they are liars!
13.*They will bear their own burdens, and (other) burdens along with their own, and on the Day of Judgments they will be called to account for their falsehoods.


just make the rationale clear, then cast the stone/missile.




71.*Relate to them the story of Noah.
Behold! he said to his people:
"O my people, if it be hard on your (mind) that I should stay (with you) and commemorate the signs of Allah,- yet I put my trust in Allah.
Get ye then an agreement about your plan and among your partners, so your plan be on to you dark and dubious.
Then pass your sentence on me, and give me no respite.

72.*"But if ye turn back, (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah.s will (in Islam)."

73.*They rejected Him, but We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark, and We made them inherit (the earth), while We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our Signs. Then see what was the end of those who were warned (but heeded not)!

 

[MidnightRose]

But the sacrifice of Jesus leaves a profound feeling for us Christians. Imagine being trapped in a burning building, and a stranger risks his life to save you, later this stranger dies but he has saved your life. You are left with a feeling of gratitude, but you are helpless to repay that stranger, you then find out he was a very kind person, he helped people in need and many people benefited from his charitable work.

You cannot repay him directly, but you could be left with a need to try and carry on his good work.

Hi Eric,

According to Islamic scholars of the classical tradition, in the context of Islam, this is precisely how Muslims are supposed to feel about the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH).

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;



Most of the time this makes sense, but there are times when you cannot tie the camel, but your only hope is to trust in Allah.

I am part of a Street Pastor team, we wonder the town until 3 - 4 am on a Saturday morning after the pubs and clubs have shut, we come into contact with drunks, drugs, angry people, very troubled people, fights and of course lots of wonderful people too.

People often say we should have a black belt in karate, wear a stab vest and carry a Taser gun, but this misses the point. Some of us are in our sixties and seventies, we don't do running or self defence, it would be pointless to think of this as an option, the better option would be to stay indoors and go to bed.

However, amazing things happen, when we put our trust in God and go, we walk in the middle of fights, we are just there, and there is little we can do, but somehow these fights come to a stop, and afterwards we receive lots of handshakes and thanks.

We were out yesterday morning around 3 am by the kebab shop, a crowd of drunk football supporters were coming towards the three of us, some were swearing and looking for a fight, their team has not been doing well. When the most angry man approached us, he changed, he said hello Street Pastors shook all our hands several times, said he had been in prison and was still looking to hit someone. I said I could see a kind side to him, and in years to come he would be out helping other people, he shook all our hands again, leaving calmer.

We stopped outside the kebab shop run by Muslims, as the noisy football crowd went for their food, we have been around when people make racist and anti Muslim remarks. We side with the Muslims, we try and absorb their anger, often bystanders will join us and make things hard for the racist.

In the spirit of trusting in our God,

Eric

It seems like you're doing some great work in the UK.
Are you familiar with As-Suffah Institute? It's an Islamic organization in the UK that's focused on helping people as well. As-Suffah Institute is under the guidance of Islamic scholars of the classical tradition. If you get a chance, I highly recommend that you check them out at

As-Suffa Institute
25 Park Lane
Aston, Birmingham
B6 5DA
as-suffa.org

With peace and blessings of the Lord.

 

[Insaanah]

Greetings and peace, Eric,

Imagine being trapped in a burning building

I see what analogy you're trying to make. The burning building with no way out being the eternal ****ation due to original sin, that there is no way out from except through a saviour (i.e. Jesus, peace be upon him).

I think the analogy has a bit missing though, at the beginning. It should read, imagine somebody trapped you in a burning building, from which there is no way out. No fire exits, whole place consumed by fire and smoke. That person, analogy-wise, according to Christians, is God.

Now, why were you trapped in the burning building? Because one of your forefathers long ago, did something that you have to bear some of the punishment for. This is now not looking so loving, and forgiving.

In Christianity, because of Adam (peace be upon him) eating from the tree, humans became imperfect, and not only Adam (peace be upon him), but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, fell out of grace with God, mankind's relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world. God then had an innocent man (who actually is him) killed in a painful, torturous death to repair all of that, there being no other way of redemption. Through what Christians perceive to be his death and resurrection, they believe that that broken relationship is repaired and that man is reconciled with God. Salvation and reconciliation with God can only be achieved through the crucifixion and acceptance of Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour, who they believe died for their sins, and to give them eternal life.

In Islam, God forgave Adam and Eve (peace be on them), and guided them, and has sent guidance for us all to follow. He can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. The same thing that every prophet and messenger preached throughout time. God's Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise. He can forgive whom He Pleases, and punish whom He pleases.

There is no burning building, no one punishing you for something you didn't do by putting you in a burning building, and no one being unjustly killed by the one who trapped you in the building in the first place.

I wish one day Eric, that you would open your heart to, submit to, and accept the truth, which resonates with the heart and mind, and makes sense. The truth is easy to understand, and clear. As a most likeable non-Muslim on this board, we do have a natural concern for you and a want for you follow the same truth God sent all the Prophets with, from Adam through to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, peace be on them all. We would love to see you accept Islam, and as always, openly invite you and call you to do so, and to ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. And it is that to which all people are invited by the Qur'an. Your beliefs regarding God, and which faith you follow, are the biggest, most serious and most important decisions you will ever make, as this life will end one day for all of us, and our position regarding God and His messengers is what makes or breaks our hereafter, which is forever. You owe it to yourself, to not regret in the hereafter, when it'll be too late. Many ex-Christians say they actually feel closer to Jesus's teachings now than when they were Christian.

In the video, the Christian gentleman makes a point of saying that each sin is so great. This while thinking nothing of the greatest sin of all, which is to associate others in God's exclusive divinity, about which Jesus (peace be on him) will say to God, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (Qur'an 5:116 part- 117)

Some translations of other relevant verses/part verses from the Qur'an:

Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path." (Spoken by Jesus. 3:51 , 19:36 and 43:64)
And say, "Praise be to Allah, who has no son and no partner in His Dominion..." (17:111 part)
Worship Allah exclusively, and do not associate others in His Divinity.. (4:36, part)

Say: "We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and to [all] the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one and another of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)." And whosoever seeks as religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and he shall be in the hereafter, among the losers.(3:84, 85) Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam... (3:19, part)

This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed.(14:52) Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for [the good of] his soul, and whoever goes astray only goes astray to the detriment of it.." (10:108 part) And fear a Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be treated unjustly. (2:281)

Peace.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah; and thanks for all your kind words in the past,

Forgiveness is not a natural human trait, when someone wrongs you and angers you, there is the need to seek justice and retribution.

Pope John Paul probably gave many sermons on forgiveness, and people probably listened, but would they then be influenced to forgive those who have wronged them. When Pope John Paul was shot and almost died, he then forgave the gunman, he visited him in prison and asked the authorities to reduce his jail sentence.

I think from that time onwards, Pope John Paul earned the right to talk about forgiveness, he was not just preaching but talking from life experience.

The prophet, pbuh, message on forgiveness seemed more powerful when he talked about the things he had forgiven.

In the spirit of seeking to forgive those who anger us

Eric