Proof that the Bible is ‘Corrupted’

[*Hana*]

Verse 17 says the identity of the "another helper" will be "The Spirit of Truth", that he is currently present in that "He dwells with you" and that he "will be in you" following Christs return to the Father. Another helper does not have to mean a new helper. Verse 26 says the indwelling helper has no come yet.

This is reiterated in chapter 15.

Jn 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Peace Doug:

To me those verses clearly say another will be sent, not another will return or one that is here will show himself. When speaking of the spirit of truth, it means this person will speak the same truths that Jesus, pbuh, taught and he will reiterate what Jesus, pbuh, taught and you will know it is truth. It can't mean the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit was already present long before and during Jesus, pbuh, so there would be no need to send him. Jesus, pbuh, is speaking in future tenses not present or past.

Peace to you,
Hana

 

[dougmusr]

We will just have to accept the fact that both of us see the verse through the lense filters of different faiths. Outside of diagramming the sentences in the passage, I can't do any better. The verse is quite clear to me.

 

[*Hana*]

We will just have to accept the fact that both of us see the verse through the lense filters of different faiths. Outside of diagramming the sentences in the passage, I can't do any better. The verse is quite clear to me.

Peace Doug:

I appreciate you trying to explain your understanding of the verses. I agree, we will have to accept the fact we see it differently, as it also seems just as clear for me as well. lol

Take care and peace to you,
Hana

 

[duskiness]

Bless you!
That's exactly how I feel.

Thanks Glo, good to know it's not only me!
after reading Lavikor's post, it's seems it's not only "a christian pov":

Do not attack the Torah without proof or knowledge. Your ignorance and patheticness shows valiantly!!!!:heated:
I have one simple request for all members of this forum. Use your own knowledge. The copy and pasting of lies is a pathetic way to spread untruth. Either actually read the torah, or don't talk about it.

quite emotional. but i understand

we can present points like a history book... with facts... not subjective views.... you bring something to the table... we bring something to the table... we discuss it...

if it was so easy!! problem is that we both feel emotional about our beliefs.

I see a thousand website... in fact I almost can't put in any search engine the word Islam or even Jilbab and not find something deragtory and down right disgusting written of Muslims our prophet or our religion...

true, but the longer i'm on this board the more antichristian sites i know..

I can't go fighting with everyone... it is futile... it is really NOT PRODUCTIVE....

- we say in poland that avalanche changes the way it's falling because of little stones beneath it. We should be like those stones..

correct me if I am wrong but have you converted to Islam from what was written here? has anyone converted to christinaity from the points you bring? if the answer is NO to both... then what we are doing here is not working...

I not trying to convert you here! I'm not that ambtious! I'm tring to understand you, and when i write about my faith (usually) i hope you'll understand something about us. And it's working! for me at least ! i know islam better than i did..
Look at your posts and Hana_Aku's (just as an example). Then compare it with this one:

I have yet to see the Bitter Water Test and the True Chistian Test to be passed successfully by any Christian

(not to mention that i have no idea why he is speaking about ordeals and exchristian site present our faith in the same light that any exmuslim site presents Islam.)
...or....

Let's see:

1.) Bible does not go along with science AT ALL.
2.) Hundreds of contradictions.
3.) Words changed over time by various "Christians." (ex. slave ---> servant)
4.) Unicorns, 4 legged spiders, flying serpants and other mythical creatures
5.) Contains information already disproved (ex. flat earth)
6.) "Morals" include subjugation of women, establishing institution of slavery, and killing of disobedient children.
7.) Absolutely incompatible with history (ex. Great Flood regarded as myth by most scientists). The Old testament may have a basis of facts, but the New Testament is regarded as purely mythical.
8.) Personification of animals (ex. lions killing via strangulation)

Source: Wikipedia

Hymmm....i don't want to be offensive but i'm quite sure most Christian read bible more often than QuranStudy and probably know more about it's history. So for who this post is..?.Because it's not a question, nor invitation to discussion....

and if we can't convince each other, yet end up seeing each other's posts every day least we can do is be civilized about what we write.....I always like to think of posters as actual people I'd meet... do I want to get contentious with someone just because they sport a different outfit or worship differently than I do? it is ridiculous right?

Right

So, I think sometimes it seems as though the bible is being bashed, when in fact we are only trying to show the problem we have with the texts provided to us as "proofs".

The only thing that is being shown s that Muslim don't understand what Bible is. Joe quite often is writing about this...We don't think about Bible in the way you think about Quran.

To be quite frank, it's simple, the fact that your bible was writtenby humans, the fact that the bible is more about what paul thinks than it is about what was revealed to jesus.

There are some Paul's letters in NT. but thats just A LITTLE part of Bible...

There's alot of people who do revert to Islam, others don't, but it's for a whole host of reasons, parents, laziness, not sincere in seraching for the truth

Then in your eyes I'm lazy or insincere?

point is, there seems to be something fundamentally different

...in the way we (Muslims & Christians) think about revelation....At least that's my thought after spending some time here....

How could the god who created this complicated and advanced universe be a true god if he's comitting mistakes and contradictions in his revelations to mankind

it's a mankind that is comitting mistakes when tring to understand revelation

you mean 'lenses'? (sorry srsly not trying 2b pedantic)..

sorry for spelling. i meant: "soczewki".

we can mathematically prove that what's narrated about the propehts is the truth in the quran.

"mathematically prove"? Sorry but i doubt that you can prove anything in faith..
PurestAmbrosia, Hana_Aku, lolwatever, Tayyaba - thanks for your answers here
I'm on my way to bed, so "good night" all!

 

[QuranStudy]

(not to mention that i have no idea why he is speaking about ordeals and exchristian site present our faith in the same light that any exmuslim site presents Islam.)
...or....

So are you saying the Bitter water test and the True Christian test as said is the Bible is false??

Hymmm....i don't want to be offensive but i'm quite sure most Christian read bible more often than QuranStudy and probably know more about it's history. So for who this post is..?.Because it's not a question, nor invitation to discussion....

If you belive the world is flat and there are unicorns and animals with abilities of a human, then that's your problem. I get my sources from Zakir Naik who memorized the entire Bible and has been debating with real Christians,

 

[ManchesterFolk]

world is flat

The easiest way to tell you have never read the bible, do not understand its context and obviously the translation and words there are none for in the english language.

 

[جوري]

duskiness... I truly appreciate how much time it must have taken you to type up all that.... yes I believe this forum is for the purpose of abridging the gaps and clarify differences.... I don't write the same way now as I did when I was 15, or even 25... there are things to be learned of religion of politics, of human psychology and the human condition with more abstract understanding as one grows... I think you and the more discerning readers should not only know but appreciate that, this shouldnt be about making someone feel bad or rotten... It is disheartening to feel/be attacked with something with which you hold so dear especially that most decent people and I love to believe in that decency think that they are who they are after deep reflection and conviction... Yes we are here to learn... I love theology... by the way I have spent a great deal of my life in catholic schools, I tried to learn as much as I could of christinity then... I don't think you can learn much about a religion from novices or hate blogs... it is good to interact with people of a particular faith if you wish to learn how they practice... but memebers of the same family aren't the same let alone the entire community... good books are always a great start, interacting with others is also great, having a level head to be able to distinguish between what is meant to be practised, what is practised, attitudes, cultural diversity, and psychological assessment the variables of a very complex formula, is always considered a great blessing... I don't think the prophet (PBUH) engaged in senseless wrangling... and in the quran it states Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46

I certainly wouldn't want any members to feel less than welcome unless they are here just to harass others.... but would like for them if not learn of Islam at least appreciate that the negative incessant portryal in the media is a far cry from the truth

peace :smile:

 

[QuranStudy]

The easiest way to tell you have never read the bible, do not understand its context and obviously the translation and words there are none for in the english language.

Let's see:

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It might not be meaning it literally. I wouldnt know tho...

 

[QuranStudy]

It might not be meaning it literally. I wouldnt know tho...

Christians believe Bible is the literal word of God.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

lol ok then i guess some would change their mind...:?

 

[ManchesterFolk]

Christians believe Bible is the literal word of God.

Have you ever heard of a metaphor? :uhwhat

 

[جوري]

"الحقيقه سيضع لك مجانا " what does this mean to you? I am fluent in Arabic and that is nonsensical at best.........

 

[lolwatever]

Thanks Glo, good to know it's not only me!
after reading Lavikor's post, it's seems it's not only "a christian pov":

quite emotional. but i understand
if it was so easy!! problem is that we both feel emotional about our beliefs.
true, but the longer i'm on this board the more antichristian sites i know..
- we say in poland that avalanche changes the way it's falling because of little stones beneath it. We should be like those stones..
I not trying to convert you here! I'm not that ambtious! I'm tring to understand you, and when i write about my faith (usually) i hope you'll understand something about us. And it's working! for me at least ! i know islam better than i did..
Look at your posts and Hana_Aku's (just as an example). Then compare it with this one: (not to mention that i have no idea why he is speaking about ordeals and exchristian site present our faith in the same light that any exmuslim site presents Islam.)
...or....
Hymmm....i don't want to be offensive but i'm quite sure most Christian read bible more often than QuranStudy and probably know more about it's history. So for who this post is..?.Because it's not a question, nor invitation to discussion....

Right
The only thing that is being shown s that Muslim don't understand what Bible is. Joe quite often is writing about this...We don't think about Bible in the way you think about Quran.
There are some Paul's letters in NT. but thats just A LITTLE part of Bible...
Then in your eyes I'm lazy or insincere?
...in the way we (Muslims & Christians) think about revelation....At least that's my thought after spending some time here....
it's a mankind that is comitting mistakes when tring to understand revelation
sorry for spelling. i meant: "soczewki".
"mathematically prove"? Sorry but i doubt that you can prove anything in faith..
PurestAmbrosia, Hana_Aku, lolwatever, Tayyaba - thanks for your answers here
I'm on my way to bed, so "good night" all!

That's very unfair of you to just pick and choose and make comments about bits dislocated from the rest of their context... y dont u do a line by line response to what i said.

regarding the math thing, there's something in math we call 'limits', as x approaches infinity, a function may approach a limiting value.... that's got applications here as well, the more miraculous predictions and facts presented by the quran, the greater the likelihood that it could not have been written by man (especially, in our case, a man who was illiterate).

math applies everywehre, as one of from a stat point of view,
That is why George Gallup, the American statistician says: "I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity."

Same goes when it comes to quran and things like that. I'll reply to your comments only after u do a line by line response to what i said.

but anyway, reply to what i said before we go on about that.

http://www.islamicboard.com/473718-post52.html

 

[QuranStudy]

Have you ever heard of a metaphor? :uhwhat

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

 

[dougmusr]

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Isaiah 40:22 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

 

[QuranStudy]

LOL:

Isaiah 40:22 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

 

[dougmusr]

LOL:

Isaiah 40:22 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Get back to me after you find the corners of the circle.

 

[QuranStudy]

Get back to me after you find the corners of the circle.

The thing is ....I DONT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE.

Why dont you show me the corners of the earth since you're Christian??

 

[*Hana*]

Originally Posted by Hana_Aku

So, I think sometimes it seems as though the bible is being bashed, when in fact we are only trying to show the problem we have with the texts provided to us as "proofs".

The only thing that is being shown s that Muslim don't understand what Bible is. Joe quite often is writing about this...We don't think about Bible in the way you think about Quran.

Peace Duskiness:

I've quoted your statement in red for clarity.

I wanted to respond to this so you understand that I don't copy/paste responses regarding biblical text unless there is an article that explains something better than I can, but usually, I try to avoid it. I know the bible very well as I was a Christian most of my life and have spent years learning biblical text. It is through this learning process that brought me to Islam, Alhamdulillah. There are many of us who have a very good understanding of the bible and know exactly what it is.

I don't agree with what you said about Christians not thinking of the bible the same way we think about the Qur'an. We both believe these books are words of God. The difference is, as Muslims, we don't believe the Biblical text, as it is written today, is the accurate word of God. The basis of what we believe may differ because of our understanding of our Holy Books, but that doesn't mean we lack understanding of what Christians believe and vice versa. I know very well why Christians accept the Bible as the word of God and I can respect them for their choice, but it doesn't mean I agree with it. Should you continue to learn more about Islam, you will probably understand, if you don't already, why we accept the Qur'an as the word of God, but it doesn't mean you will accept it for yourself.

I sincerely hope you can understand the point I'm trying to make. I have a tendency to babble. :embarrass

Take care and peace,
Hana