Prophet Adam (P.B.U.H)

[جوري]

It's sayings like this that make me think that Muslims would be better off just sticking to what the Qur'an says and avoid the Hadith.

Adam 90 foot tall? Now really. Wouldn't there be some fossil record of people being that tall if it were true?

:wa:

Is everything that dies fossilized in your opinion?

1. Conditions for Fossilization
2. Fossilization is a rare occurrence. Certain conditions need to have been met in order to increase the likelihood of fossilization. First, the organism should have had hard parts that have a high mineral content. Second, the organism should have been buried rapidly, decreasing chances of being eaten by predators or destroyed by aerobic bacteria. Third, the organism should have died in a biologically inert area where sedimentation rapidly occurs. Many fossils are found in ancient deltas or where an ancient sea once was because the remains are covered quickly and are safe from damage.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5200168_fossilization-occur_.html

further just because Adam was of this stature doesn't mean that every generation thereafter was of similar stature as well (very possible for very tall parents to have 'achondroblastic' children as a brand new spontaneous mutation .. and lastly we do we know if his stature were as such in heaven or on earth!

and Allah swt knows best..

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

...To not believe in evolution you must be ignorant, stupid or insane. QUOTE]

huh...can we say this : To believe in evolution you must be ignorant, stupid or insane ??

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Supreme;

To not believe in evolution you must be ignorant, stupid or insane.

I guess I am ignorant, stupid and insane, because I just cannot believe in evolution, in the way Dawkins describes.

Sorry to derail the thread :hiding:

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

im confused, isnt there a hadith that says Allah has forbidden the ground to "eat" the body of the prophets? so why are these in coffins :?

 

[جوري]

im confused, isnt there a hadith that says Allah has forbidden the ground to "eat" the body of the prophets? so why are these in coffins :?

To begin with, these aren't 98 feet long-- I think they moved three sarcophaguses together and then put a false label..
I really don't understand why folks do that?.. I think it is dishonest and proves nothing!
in fact puts them in the center of ridicule!

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^not to mention adam, aleyhi salaam, wasn't the first person to die. it was his son who got murdered by the brother (i cant remember the names, but the story is in tasfeer al-baghawi).

 

[GuestFellow]

This isn't helping my height self esteem issues.

5'2'' ?

The theory of evolution has substantiated evidence to support it. I hate to quote Dawkins in one of his 'holier than thou, religion is bollocks' moments, but:

Evidence supporting Theory of Evolution could change. From my understanding, Theory of Evolution is based upon evidence through conducting experiments and research. I think that is how a scientific theory works, different from a theory on its own. If some new evidence comes out, it could alter the Theory of Evolution to some extent...

People do get emotional over the Theory of Evolution...kinda scary.

 

[جوري]

5'2'' ?

:haha:

heels for dudes

People do get emotional over the Theory of Evolution...kinda scary.

That happens when pseudo-science becomes a religion all its own, you have a clash of the titans!

 

[Supreme]

5'2'' ?

5'7.

Evidence supporting Theory of Evolution could change. From my understanding, Theory of Evolution is based upon evidence through conducting experiments and research. I think that is how a scientific theory works, different from a theory on its own. If some new evidence comes out, it could alter the Theory of Evolution to some extent...

Indeed, to quote Einstein:

A million experiments couldn't prove me right. A single experiment could prove me wrong.

Although we need to work on what evidence we do have, and if new evidence comes along disproving it, evolution will be happily discarded. I'd like to think of most scientists being open minded to new hypothesis.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

The prophet saying that Adam was 90 feet tall reminds me of Joseph Smith saying that there were men living on the moon who dressed like Quakers or Oral Roberts saying that Christ appeared to him and he was 90 feet tall.

The problem with the Hadith, is that they didn't start to collect them until some 200 years after the prophet died. I have read a lot of criticism here of the new testament because much of it was written 50 to 100 years after the death of Christ. It seems to me that the Hadith suffer from a bigger problem, they weren't collected until long after the death of the prophet, and often are contradictory. It is possible that this statement of the prophet was misquoted or misinterpreted or made up by somebody at some point.

:wa:

 

[جوري]

The prophet saying that Adam was 90 feet tall reminds me of Joseph Smith saying that there were men living on the moon who dressed like Quakers or Oral Roberts saying that Christ appeared to him and he was 90 feet tall.

The problem with the Hadith, is that they didn't start to collect them until some 200 years after the prophet died. I have read a lot of criticism here of the new testament because much of it was written 50 to 100 years after the death of Christ. It seems to me that the Hadith suffer from a bigger problem, they weren't collected until long after the death of the prophet, and often are contradictory. It is possible that this statement of the prophet was misquoted or misinterpreted or made up by somebody at some point.

:wa:

I am not sure where you are drawing the similarities between prophet Mohamed and Joseph smith?
Fossils of creatures of that magnitude lie in natural history museums around the world, the process of miniaturization is an accepted scientific fact!
And again, said stature could very well have been before their descent into earth.. as such we will also be a different creation in heaven.. You can't really accept that God can create what he wills and then speak of the impossibility of said creation.. especially when you have examples of gigantic creatures fossilized!..

You are most welcome not to believe in, but having faith means believing in that which you see and that which you don't!

all the best

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Fossils of creatures of that magnitude lie in natural history museums around the world, the process of miniaturization is an accepted scientific fact!
And again, said stature could very well have been before their descent into earth.. as such we will also be a different creation in heaven.. You can't really accept that God can create what he wills and then speak of the impossibility of said creation.. especially when you have examples of gigantic creatures fossilized!..

Okay. Dinosaurs were huge. But I'm just saying I'm not aware of any remains of a human ever coming close to 90 feet. Now, 7 feet or so, yes, but 90? No way.

Of course, when you say God can create what he wills then anything can be argued. That is like saying believe me based on faith. I'm not saying it would be impossible, I'm just saying where is the evidence?

The stature of someone before their descent to earth...I am not familiar with that concept. Does Islam teach that all people existed before they were placed here on earth or is this something that is just for Adam? Is there a belief in a pre-existence? Pardon my ignorance, I'm still trying to get my mind around some of the Islamic teachings.

Thanks.

:wa:

 

[جوري]

Okay. Dinosaurs were huge. But I'm just saying I'm not aware of any remains of a human ever coming close to 90 feet. Now, 7 feet or so, yes, but 90? No way.

And I have:
1- already linked you to the special process of fossilization and that the majority of dead things in fact disintegrate unless under very special circumstances!
2- Given you scientific fact that short stature in an of itself can occur within one generation such as with achondroplasia as a spontaneous mutation as such making it possible for him or a just a few to be the only ones of said stature!
3- surmised that perhaps that was his stature in heaven before his descent on earth, just as we know that out creation in paradise will be different than it is here on earth!

Of course, when you say God can create what he wills then anything can be argued. That is like saying believe me based on faith. I'm not saying it would be impossible, I'm just saying where is the evidence?

Do you have evidence that paradise or hell exist? Or do you believe in them based on the verity of the entire text?

The stature of someone before their descent to earth...I am not familiar with that concept. Does Islam teach that all people existed before they were placed here on earth or is this something that is just for Adam? Is there a belief in a pre-existence? Pardon my ignorance, I'm still trying to get my mind around some of the Islamic teachings.

Thanks.

:wa:

In Islam there is the belief that all souls took an oath before God vowing to worship only him, and hence our fitrah to believe in God!
I am talking about Adam's actual physical being before he was cast from heaven!
also note heaven and paradise are two different places!


and Allah swt knows best!

 

[Rabi Mansur]

In Islam there is the belief that all souls took an oath before God vowing to worship only him, and hence our fitrah to believe in God!
I am talking about Adam's actual physical being before he was cast from heaven!
also note heaven and paradise are two different places!

Thank you. That helps.

See, I really don't know a lot about Islam. :embarrass

I'm still learning. :inshallah

:wa:

 

[جوري]

Thank you. That helps.

See, I really don't know a lot about Islam. :embarrass

I'm still learning. :inshallah

:wa:

It is really more than OK.. I hope I didn't offend you in anyway as I can be quite abrasive in my style when I really don't mean to be..

All I am asking is that you ask the questions and reflect on them deeply.. not merely taking one side or the other.. I am well aware how atheists mock the fact of the matter along with everything else and offer 'evidence' to the matter.. whatever their tactics, there really isn't any reason to assuredly dismiss this... it is simply one of those things that can neither be verified or falsified .. and that at times is what distinguishes a believer from a non-believer..
There are levels of religiosity and everyone has doubts!

[49: 14] THE BEDOUIN say, "We have attained to faith." Say : "You have not [yet] attained to faith; you should [rather] say, 'We have [outwardly] surrendered' - for [true] faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you [truly] pay heed unto God and His Apostle, He will not let the least of your deeds18 go to waste: for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."

peace

 

[Rabi Mansur]

It is really more than OK.. I hope I didn't offend you in anyway as I can be quite abrasive in my style when I really don't mean to be..

All I am asking is that you ask the questions and reflect on them deeply.. not merely taking one side or the other.. I am well aware how atheists mock the fact of the matter along with everything else and offer 'evidence' to the matter.. whatever their tactics, there really isn't any reason to assuredly dismiss this... it is simply one of those things that can neither be verified or falsified .. and that at times is what distinguishes a believer from a non-believer..
There are levels of religiosity and everyone has doubts!

[49: 14] THE BEDOUIN say, "We have attained to faith." Say : "You have not [yet] attained to faith; you should [rather] say, 'We have [outwardly] surrendered' - for [true] faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you [truly] pay heed unto God and His Apostle, He will not let the least of your deeds18 go to waste: for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."

peace

Thank you. It is hard to offend me, honestly. Although at times your style does come across as a bit abrupt at times, I always like to read what you have to say because you do your homework and seem to know a lot about Islam. :rock: You and Woodrow are my favorites. On the other hand, I like to read what CZ Gibson has to say from the atheist viewpoint and some of the Christian posters are also quite knowledgeable about the bible.

I appreciate what you are saying about reflecting on these things. That is what I try to do. I am not an atheist, I am just someone who is looking to find God. Doubts are something that come natural to me because I tend to think critically, however, the search for God still burns inside of me.

As I mentioned before, I come from a background (mormonism) that also taught it was "the way" and that it was the only true church. Since I came to my senses, and realized I was in a religion riddled with lies, I am still a bit skeptical about religious claims. Hope you can appreciate that fact.

:thankyou:

 

[جوري]

Thank you. It is hard to offend me, honestly. Although at times your style does come across as a bit abrupt at times, I always like to read what you have to say because you do your homework and seem to know a lot about Islam. :rock: You and Woodrow are my favorites. On the other hand, I like to read what CZ Gibson has to say from the atheist viewpoint and some of the Christian posters are also quite knowledgeable about the bible.

I appreciate what you are saying about reflecting on these things. That is what I try to do. I am not an atheist, I am just someone who is looking to find God. Doubts are something that come natural to me because I tend to think critically, however, the search for God still burns inside of me.

As I mentioned before, I come from a background (mormonism) that also taught it was "the way" and that it was the only true church. Since I came to my senses, and realized I was in a religion riddled with lies, I am still a bit skeptical about religious claims. Hope you can appreciate that fact.

:thankyou:

Of course I can, but I can assure you that the height or hair color or clothing of Adam (p) has no bearing on your state of religiosity whatsoever.. I appreciate that you think I am knowledgeable in Islam, in fact I joined this forum for the same reasons that you've, which is to learn. I can't be preoccupied with such ancillary details because in actuality they have no bearing on Islam. Not to make a crude comparison but if I couldn't understand the trinity and had to accept that Jesus died to atone for me and had to accept that at face value, I'd be worried and skeptical, because that seems to be the fulcrum upon which all else rests. In Islam whether you believe that Adam (p) were 90 feet or three meters, really makes no difference whatsoever one way or the other!

I like this hadith and in fact learned it of late on this very forum:

http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/134282688-my-favourite-hadeeth.html

all the best and peace!

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

The problem with the Hadith, is that they didn't start to collect them until some 200 years after the prophet died.

There is no such problem with the Hadith. The oft-repeated 'collected 200 years after' argument is completely false and baseless which has unfortunately become a common misconception due to the ignorance of many people. Please see the following, 'Myth #1':

http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html

 

[Rabi Mansur]

There is no such problem with the Hadith. The oft-repeated 'collected 200 years after' argument is completely false and baseless which has unfortunately become a common misconception due to the ignorance of many people. Please see the following, 'Myth #1':

It is my understanding that Bukhari is generally considered the most trusted of the hadith collectors. He started collecting hadith 230 years after the death of the prophet according to what I have read. That would allow for some errors in transmission.

As an outsider looking at Islam, it would seem to me that you can't always trust the Hadith. The provenance for the Qur'an, on the other hand, is pretty tight and leaves no room for dispute. I am not aware of any alternative versions of the Qur'an. It is what it is.

Therefore, when someone cites something to me from the Hadith, I tend to accept it with a caveat. It may or may not be what he said. On the other hand, when the Qur'an is cited, I don't doubt that is what Muhammad :saws1: recited.

That is the way it appears to me.

:wa:

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

It is my understanding that Bukhari is generally considered the most trusted of the hadith collectors. He started collecting hadith 230 years after the death of the prophet according to what I have read. That would allow for some errors in transmission.

As an outsider looking at Islam, it would seem to me that you can't always trust the Hadith. The provenance for the Qur'an, on the other hand, is pretty tight and leaves no room for dispute. I am not aware of any alternative versions of the Qur'an. It is what it is.

Therefore, when someone cites something to me from the Hadith, I tend to accept it with a caveat. It may or may not be what he said. On the other hand, when the Qur'an is cited, I don't doubt that is what Muhammad :saws1: recited.

That is the way it appears to me.

:wa:

If you read the link, you would have seen that there were 19 books in the first century itself, and 40 in the second which the article named. Imam Bukhari simply compiled the Hadith following the rigorous procedures laid down in the meticulous sciences of Hadith classification (known as Mustalah al-Hadith) and his compilation wasn't a work he did by himself, rather it was scrutinized by scholars of Hadith of his time as well as those that came after, it wasn't accepted on face value as some would believe. An individual alone might make errors, but when the testification exists of thousands of not lay people, but educated scholars of the science, on the authenticity and validity of the compilation, then that leaves no room for doubt. As a person that is familiar with the science it makes no sense to me when people try to create a distinction between the preservation of the Qur'an versus the preservation of the Hadith - when they were both preserved in the exact same way.