It seems that on this we agree and understand the other's position.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.
- Thread starter - Qatada -
- Start date
- Replies 361
- Views 155K
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Halal Food Gastronomy | vBulletin 4 php 8.0 patch
ummsara1108
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 203
- Reaction score
- 13
- Gender
- Female
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in the Bible.
Please don't take this offensively, but all those quotes you've made and yet your an athiest? Why even care if you don't believe in God at all?
Please don't take this offensively, but all those quotes you've made and yet your an athiest? Why even care if you don't believe in God at all?
ummsara1108
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 203
- Reaction score
- 13
- Gender
- Female
- Religion
- Islam
I know thirdwatch512 has a disabled account, but just had to get that off my shoulders...
fromgenesis
Senior Member
- Messages
- 86
- Reaction score
- 1
People have told me I'm a fundamentalist. Well if that means I stick to the Word, that's fine with me.
In respect of your comments about various interpretations, the following seems to indicate that the work of atonement was done on the cross.The following extract from Matthew Henry's concise commentary has the following to say in this regard:
It is finished; that is, the counsels of the Father concerning his sufferings were now fulfilled. It is finished; all the types and prophecies of the Old Testament, which pointed at the sufferings of the Messiah, were accomplished. It is finished; the ceremonial law is abolished; the substance is now come, and all the shadows are done away. It is finished; an end is made of transgression by bringing in an everlasting righteousness. His sufferings were now finished, both those of his soul, and those of his body. It is finished; the work of man's redemption and salvation is now completed. His life was not taken from him by force, but freely given up.
But this is not the forum to discuss that as we have strayed substantially from the original - Muhammad prophesied. It will be interesting to discuss your views further on a website and forum we have just launched -www.fanap.co.za/forum.
The nature of GOD is that He is just, infinitely pure and holy.
When a sin is committed a payment must be made- if this were not the case then GOD would not be just!! One can say they are sorry but that does not pay the debt. GOD loves the sinner but hates sin, so He sent someone to cover the debt for us.
Jesus has paid the debt for us, as a Christians we accept the gift given to us by our loving GOD. Those that do not accept the gift from GOD will be judged by the Law.
Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
The Jews and the Law
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
When a sin is committed a payment must be made- if this were not the case then GOD would not be just!! One can say they are sorry but that does not pay the debt. GOD loves the sinner but hates sin, so He sent someone to cover the debt for us.
Jesus has paid the debt for us, as a Christians we accept the gift given to us by our loving GOD. Those that do not accept the gift from GOD will be judged by the Law.
Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
The Jews and the Law
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
Just entering the debate and I have not yet read every post so if this ground has been covered before please ignore this. Every Christian would agree that God forgives but also punishes and as you point out the Qu'ran says the same thing. However, on what basis does a Holy God forgive sin.
My point is that God is Holy and righteous. It seems to follow that His Justice must also be Holy and perfect therefore he cannot willy nilly forgive sin otherwise His justice and Holiness count for nothing. We all fall into sin so there is no escape from judgement.
One might argue as I think you do here that there is some kind of heavenly balance which weighs our good against our bad but it does not work for me. For example, if I kill someone then I cannot reverse that and if I went to court over it the Judge would not let me go free because of a list of good deeds that I had done and I bring with me and God must be far more just than any earthly judge. It is also a little worrying (to me anyway) that I have to wait till the judgement day to know if I will make the grade or not? So two questions about Islamic teachings
1. How is God's Holiness and justice satisfied?
2. Can we have assurance oh heaven in this life?
Last edited:
Grace Seeker
IB Legend
- Messages
- 5,343
- Reaction score
- 617
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Good question, but not really germane to this particular thread, may I suggest you ask them again here in Things In Islam I am Curious About.
Last edited:
MustafaMc has wisley decided not to waste his time endlessly bantering with enemies of Islam. the "debate" you claim to entering hasn't been posted in THIS year.
perhaps you may waste somebody else's time...
freethinking
Senior Member
- Messages
- 83
- Reaction score
- 5
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Agnosticism
Peace be upon you but with great respect you have not mentioned many of the similar qualities between Jeus and Moses here are plenty you missed:
- One of the Two Men who were commissioned by Allah to make laws for the Israelite nation. The approval of Heaven on both was shown by great signs and miracles. At the time of Moses there was the Exodus from the hand of ancient Pharaoh, feeding with manna and quails and with water from the rocks. At the time of Jesus there was healing crippled, blind, deaf, speechless and epileptics. He even threw demons out of people. Many dead people were raised back to life and health (also see Matt. 27:52-52); feeding of 5000 and of 4000 men, plus women and children.
- Had His Face Glow With Light, but it faded away (Exodus 34:29-35 and 2nd Corinthians 3:12-13). The face of Jesus shined like the sun (Matthew 17:1-5) and is still shining like the sun while in heaven (Revelation 1:9-19).
- Deliverer of His Brethren who would Follow Him Out of Physical Slavery then he gave them the law. Jesus came and gave law and commandments to His followers. Then He delivered them and other followers around the world out of the spiritual slavery of sin and Satan.
- Was Born into a Situation When his Brethren were being Oppressed by Pharaoh. Jesus was born into the time when the pagan idolatrous Roman empire was oppressing His brethren.
- Was Born in a Country where a Man, Pharaoh, was Worshiped as Allah. When Jesus was born the ruling Romans worshiped Caesar as Allah.
- Grew up in a Country where the King, Pharaoh, was Afraid that the Slaves would Revolt. Jesus grew up where King Herod, "the Great," was afraid the descendants of those very same slaves would revolt.
- Was Nursed a Short Time at His Birthplace, Then was Moved for His Safety. The infant Moses was placed in a floating basket in the Nile (Exodus 2 and Acts 7:20). Jesus was nursed a short time in Bethlehem and then was taken to Egypt for safety (Matt. 2).
- Was Nursed by His Own Mother while the Official Government Policy was to Try Kill Him. King Herod tried to kill the infant Jesus (Matt. 2).
- Father was a Mystery to the General Public. The Father of Jesus and the facts of His virgin birth were a mystery to the general public (Luke 1).
- Was Adopted into the Royal Family of Pharaoh. Jesus was adopted by His step-father, Joseph, into the royal family line of King David and Solomon (Matt. 1).
- Rejected being Kingly in Life-style (Hebrews 11:23-29). Jesus did not have the life-style of royalty (Matt. 4:8-11; John 6:15 & 18:36).
- Lived in Egypt. Jesus lived in Egypt as an infant (Matt. 2:13-21).
- Came Out of Egypt to Serve Allah and be A Lawgiver and Leader. Jesus came out of Egypt to be a lawgiver and leader.
- 40 Years was Tested in Wilderness. Jesus was tested 40 days in the wilderness and had approximately 40 months of public teaching and miracle working.
- 40 Days Fasting (Exodus 34:28). Jesus fasted 40 days (Matt. 4).
- A Shepherd of sheep. Jesus is the Great Good Shepherd of His followers (John 10:11-16).
- The White Hand of Leprosy (Exodus 4:6-7). Jesus healed many different people of leprosy (Luke 17:11-19).
- Asked that the great Sin of His People be Forgiven (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus asked that the great sin of His people be forgiven (Luke 23:34).
- Had the cloud of Allah and the voice of Allah as a witness of his authority (Numbers 11:24-25). Jesus had the cloud of Allah and the voice of Allah as a witness of His authority (Matthew 17:24-25).
- Exercised power from Allah over forces of nature such as wind and water. At the Red (Reed) Sea, he walked through on dry ground (Exodus 14). Jesus walked on water and instantly calmed a storm (Matt. 14).
- Fire was important. At Mt. Horeb/Mt. Sinai there was fire (Ex. 3:1-6; 19:18 and 24:12-18) and there was the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Jesus baptized the people with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Matt. 3:11-17 and Acts 2:1-4) and at the Transfiguration His face shined like the fire of the sun (John 17:1-3). Also see 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7; 1 Corinthians 3:11-14; Hebrews 12:29; and 2 Peter 3:1-14.
- Was faithful as a Servant in all his house (Hebrews 3:5). Jesus was faithful as a Son over His house (Hebrews 3:6).
- Brought water from a rock by a miracle of Allah (Exodus 17). Jesus Himself was the Living Water which was brought out of the tomb-rock which could not hold Him (John 7:37-38).
- Asked that his nation be saved or else that his own name be blotted out of the Lord's book (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus was willing to die, and did die, and was resurrected and thereby shown to be the perfect and acceptable ransom for sin.
- A mountain was prominent in his work where the law was given for a nation. A mountain was prominent in the work of Jesus. He gave the famous Sermon on the Mountain with the law for people of all nations (Matthew 5, 6, & 7).
- His followers were angry when other people showed performing signs (Numbers 11:26-29). Followers of Jesus did the same (Mark 9:38-40).
- An angel watched over his body (Jude 9). Jesus had at least two angels watching over His body (John 20).
- Had revealed to him the special sacred memorial or covenant Name of Allah (often called "Jehovah" in English) (Exodus 3:13-15). That special name was bestowed to Jesus (Philippians 2:5-11).
- Was mighty in words and deeds (Acts 7:22). Jesus was more powerful in words and deeds (Matt. 7:28-29; and 8:3-13).
- Sent 12 men to look over the land secretly (Numbers 12). Jesus sent out his 12 disciples to look over the same land and to publicly preach repentance and to cast out unclean spirits (Mark 6:6-13).
- Did not have special clothing symbolic of his rank. Jesus also did not have special clothing showing His rank.
- Did not have biological sons to carry on his spiritual functions. Neither did Jesus.
- Was very gracious to foreign women at wells and gave them water (Exodus 2:15-17). Jesus was gracious to the Samaritian woman at Jacob's well and gave her the Water of Life (John 4). He was also gracious to: Mary Magdalene out of whom He threw 7 demons (Mark 16:9); Marium and Martha the sisters of Lazarus (Luke 10:38-41 and John 11); the woman arrested during adultery and he commanded her to stop sinning (John 8); the widow at Nain and He brought her son back to life (Luke 7:11-17); and He allowed the women to be the first to know that He had been raised from the dead (Matt. 28 and Mark 16).
- True identity was not known at first to the women at the well (Exodus 2). The true identity of Jesus was not known at first to the woman at the well (John 4).
- Lived modestly, only once being given an offering (Leviticus 8:29). Jesus lived a very modest life, sometimes not even owning a place to sleep (Luke 9:58).
- Was involved in the activities of the holy Tabernacle on earth (Exodus 25-40). Jesus is involved in the perfect Tabernacle in Heaven made by Allah (Hebrews 8).
- Was humble. Jesus was gentle and humble (Matt. 11:28-30).
- Gave blessings from Allah to be given via Aaron to the people (Numbers 6:22-27). Jesus gave blessing from Allah to the people (Matt. 5:1-12) and told His followers to bless others (Luke 6:27-28).
- Got complaints from the people who had been trained to write (Exodus 5:13-23). Jesus got complaints from the scribes (writers of the law) (Matt. 9:2-8; 16:21; and 21:12-16).
- Opponent, Pharaoh, had his heart hardened (Ex. 7:3). Jesus' opponents had their hearts hardened because He healed on the Sabbath (Luke 6:7-11).
- Law caused severe punishment, even death. Even greater punishment is against those who go back against Jesus (Hebrews 10:28-31).
- Spoke to the 70 elders of Israel (Ex. 24:1 and Numbers 11). Jesus spoke to the 70 elders (called the Sanhedrin) (Luke 22:70-71).
- Had sacrifices for the Covenant sealed with blood (Ex. 24:1-8). Jesus also sealed His new Covenant with blood (Hebrews 9:18-28).
- Provided ransom by pouring out blood as a sacrifice (Ex. 12). Jesus similarly (Matt. 20:28 & Hebrews 9:11-15).
- Closed the way to the Ark of the Covenant (Testimony) with a thick curtain (Ex. 26:33). Jesus, at His death, had the thick curtain in the temple torn open from top to bottom, opening the way (Matt 27 and Mark 15).
- Was almost stoned by his brethren (Ex. 17:4). And Jesus also (John 8:58-59).
- Had a peculiar bed as an infant (Ex. 2:3). Jesus also had a peculiar bed (Luke 2:7).
- Was raised by the daughter of the king (Ex. 2). Jesus' mother was a daughter of the House of King David by his son, Nathan (Luke 3).
- Was raised in the house of a man who was not his father, but he was adopted into the family (Ex. 2). Jesus was raised in the house of Joseph who was not His biological father, but He was adopted into the family (Matt. 1:18 & 25 and Acts 7:20-21).
- Fought against the masters of evil (Ex. 5-12). Jesus battled Satan (Matt. 4:1-10).
- Left a high position in the most powerful nation on earth to suffer for his people (Exodus 2-12 and Hebrews 11:23-27). Jesus left the highest position in Heaven to suffer for His people and to make ransom available to all people (Philippians 2:5-8).
- Spoke the words of Allah (Deuteronomy 18:18 and others). Jesus spoke the words of Allah, the Father (John 12:50 & 14:10).
- Spoke by Allah's authority (Deut. 18:19). Jesus spoke by Allah's authority (John 8:42 & 17:4-6).
- Fed multitudes of people by miracles (Ex. 16). Jesus fed multitudes (Matt. 14 and 15).
- Opened an era of law (Ex. 19 & 20). Jesus opened an era of grace and truth (John 1:17).
- Established a memorial custom (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover) based on common food elements (Ex. 12). Jesus established the memorial of Himself by a custom utilizing two common food elements of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover (Luke 22:19-20).
- Finished the work which Allah commanded him (Ex. 40:33). Jesus completed His work (John 17:4 and & 19:30).
- Does not have a known tomb where the body is located (Deut. 34). Jesus' tomb is empty because after death, he was raised up alive and ascended into Heaven (Mark 16:19 and Luke 24:50-53).
- Reappeared unto men after death (Matt. 17:3). Jesus reappeared to people, even to 500 at once, after His death and resurrection (Matt. 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20 & 21; and Acts 1:1-3).
- Was rejected by his family (Numbers 12). Jesus' own half-brothers rejected Him at first (Matt. 13:55 & John 7:5). But, later at least two were believers and wrote the two New Testament books of James and Jude.
جوري
Soldier Through It!
- Messages
- 27,759
- Reaction score
- 6,095
- Gender
- Female
- Religion
- Islam
Insha'Allah he'll write a book countering all the nonsense peddled here, not that there is much to counter anyway but obviously he'll carry it the extra mile given both his doctorate and knowledge of Christianity.. Last time most of his work was lost in a forum crash and it is unfortunate to put that much effort into something only to have it be lost at least when in a book form, such as was written by Dr. Lawrence Brown .. it will always be available and hopefully to a more cerebral crowd than the Christians we are accustomed to having here..
meanwhile if anyone is interested in a more detailed discussion, then I highly recommend:
God'ed?: The Case for Islam as the Completion of Revelation by Dr. Laurence B. Brown (Paperback - Feb. 22, 2008)
4.
MisGod'ed: A Roadmap of Guidance and Misguidance in the Abrahamic Religions by Dr. Laurence B. Brown (Paperback - Feb. 22, 2008)
SalamChristian
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 186
- Reaction score
- 5
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in the Bible.
As a Christian, I don't buy the claim that the scriptures demand Jesus is the last prophet. What do we do with John's revelations, then? "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud" (Rev 1:3) or I Corinthians "pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy" (I Corinthians 14:1)? Of course, we are told to be very careful about whose testimony we accept and whose we reject, but I am not seeing where the scriptures say that nobody prophesies after Jesus. Quite the opposite, actually.
Salaam Alaikum,
Bob
As a Christian, I don't buy the claim that the scriptures demand Jesus is the last prophet. What do we do with John's revelations, then? "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud" (Rev 1:3) or I Corinthians "pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy" (I Corinthians 14:1)? Of course, we are told to be very careful about whose testimony we accept and whose we reject, but I am not seeing where the scriptures say that nobody prophesies after Jesus. Quite the opposite, actually.
Salaam Alaikum,
Bob
bamboozled
Esteemed Member
- Messages
- 108
- Reaction score
- 11
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
This thread may also be interesting for anyone who wants proof that Muhmmad (pbuh) is mentioned, by name in original hebrew in the Bible:
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/134309169-mahammad-pbuh-name-bible-proof.html
But please also watch this:
Muhammed in the bible - Ahmed Deedat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhazm0UdlTc
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/134309169-mahammad-pbuh-name-bible-proof.html
But please also watch this:
Muhammed in the bible - Ahmed Deedat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhazm0UdlTc
Burninglight
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 391
- Reaction score
- 9
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
The Bible states that Jesus fufilled this prophecy in the the Bible when one of the apostles told Philip "We have found the one Moses spoke of.." This was written way before Muhammad was born.
Most prophets had a father and mother. I don't believe them being Jews is the reason, although it could be one reason. But I look at miracle similarities that dominate the natural, such as both were saved from infanticide; the sea obeyed them both; both were called out of Eygpt and both were saviors and both were made God; Moses savior for the Jews and god to Aaron and Jesus is Savior of the world and who I believe to be my Lord and God!
Last edited:
Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophesied in other Scriptures.
What do our Christian members think of this post? Do you agree with it, or do you consider the possibility that Muhammad (saaws) was the 'Comforter' that Jesus prophesied about in the Gospel According to John?
Orangeduck
Well-known member
- Messages
- 56
- Reaction score
- 2
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
----
Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
If you go back to chapter 17, it tells us very plainly what a "brethren" is. It tells us that a "brethren" is an Israelite. There is another word in that chapter that refers to everyone else (anyone who is not an Israelite). That word is "foreigner". So we can learn from chapter 17 that muhammad would have been a "foreigner" since he was not an Israelite, and thus we know that verse is not talking about muhammad.
Who is it talking about? Well, the Apostles certinally thought it was refering to Christ, but in all honestly, the verse could be talking about any Israelite prophet.
Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
Isaiah 29:12 is talking about false prophets. Look at the entire context. Here is what God has to say about the prophet spoken of in 29:12
"The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men."
To say that this verse is talking about mohammad only hurts your claim. This verse is talking about a false prophet and by all the requirements in the Bible, muhammad would absolutly be a false prophet.
Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:
"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
The word "muhammadim" is not in the Hebrew text. I'm looking at the text, and that word is not there. The word is “machamadim". The word means "all together lovely". If you don't believe me, there is a very easy way to check to see if I am correct. The word “machamadim" appears a few other places in the Old Testament. If the word means "muhammad" then all you would have to do is go to those places in the OT where the word appears, and just say the word "muhammad" and see if it makes and sense.
1 Kings 20:6, Lamentations 1:11 and Ezekiel 24:21. Go ahead and say "muhamamd" in those versus....I bet you will laugh to yourself.
----
Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
If you go back to chapter 17, it tells us very plainly what a "brethren" is. It tells us that a "brethren" is an Israelite. There is another word in that chapter that refers to everyone else (anyone who is not an Israelite). That word is "foreigner". So we can learn from chapter 17 that muhammad would have been a "foreigner" since he was not an Israelite, and thus we know that verse is not talking about muhammad.
Who is it talking about? Well, the Apostles certinally thought it was refering to Christ, but in all honestly, the verse could be talking about any Israelite prophet.
Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
Isaiah 29:12 is talking about false prophets. Look at the entire context. Here is what God has to say about the prophet spoken of in 29:12
"The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men."
To say that this verse is talking about mohammad only hurts your claim. This verse is talking about a false prophet and by all the requirements in the Bible, muhammad would absolutly be a false prophet.
Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:
"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
The word "muhammadim" is not in the Hebrew text. I'm looking at the text, and that word is not there. The word is “machamadim". The word means "all together lovely". If you don't believe me, there is a very easy way to check to see if I am correct. The word “machamadim" appears a few other places in the Old Testament. If the word means "muhammad" then all you would have to do is go to those places in the OT where the word appears, and just say the word "muhammad" and see if it makes and sense.
1 Kings 20:6, Lamentations 1:11 and Ezekiel 24:21. Go ahead and say "muhamamd" in those versus....I bet you will laugh to yourself.
----
Last edited by a moderator:
sambhunath
New member
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 0
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family)in the B
Quran is authenticated, divine wordings of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH),and submission to Allah is fully justified. Prophet was the true messenger, and Jesus though is a prophet, lesser then the Prophet Muhammad.
Quran 1:1 says In the name of Allah,the Entirely Merciful,the especially merciful Quran-1:2-5 All praise is due to Allah,Lord of the world-The entirely merciful the especially merciful-Sovereign of the day of Recompense- It is You we worship and You we ask for help;Guide us to the straight path-The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor,not of those who have earned Your anger or of those who are astray.
Quran is authenticated, divine wordings of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH),and submission to Allah is fully justified. Prophet was the true messenger, and Jesus though is a prophet, lesser then the Prophet Muhammad.
Quran 1:1 says In the name of Allah,the Entirely Merciful,the especially merciful Quran-1:2-5 All praise is due to Allah,Lord of the world-The entirely merciful the especially merciful-Sovereign of the day of Recompense- It is You we worship and You we ask for help;Guide us to the straight path-The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor,not of those who have earned Your anger or of those who are astray.
Okay, let me clear this up once and for all.
First off it doesn’t matter one tiny whit to a Muslim if the New Testament claims that Jesus (P) was this “prophet like unto Moses” mentioned in Deuteronomy 18. There isn’t a single *mention* of the New Testament anywhere in the Koran, let alone an endorsement. As I’ve explained to people a trillion times before, the Gospel the Koran *does* endorse is not any of the biblical Gospels but rather one of the many lost Gospels outside of the Bible. Surah 5, verse 110 and surah 57, verse 27 explains that this Gospel was revealed directly to Jesus himself and as such he had some sort of hand in its writing: obviously this does not apply to any of the four canonical Gospels. If it had been one of them then the parable in surah 48, verse 29 would have had a biblical parallel. It doesn’t. The New Testament hardly has a good track record when it comes to understanding Old Testament prophecy anyway. For example Matthew 27:9-10 cites the wrong book altogether, referring to Jeremiah when it seems to mean Zechariah 11:12-13. Assuming that was even meant to be a prophecy, which in context it doesn’t look like it was. Very few of them ever do look like prophecies in context.
And when you think about it, it shouldn’t even be a supreme priority to a *Christian* if the New Testament says that the Deuteronomy passage refers to Jesus. The New Testament doesn’t even consider *itself* to be inerrant. Oh yeah, I’ll bet you didn’t know *that*, did you? Don’t throw 2 Timothy 3:16 at me: that’s referring to whatever was considered “scripture” in Paul’s *own* time and place. The New Testament couldn’t very well have existed while it was still being written, now could it? And on three different occasions (1 Corinthians 7:12 and 7:25, 2 Corinthians 11:17) St. Paul announces that what he’s about to tell us is all him and most definitely *not* inspired by God. Or is it an error when he implies that there might be errors? Besides, look at how the Testament seems to contradict itself on the issue of this prophet’s identity in John 1:
When the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask [John the Baptist], “Who are you?” he confessed, and didn’t deny, but he confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
They said therefore to him, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
He said, “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”
Now let me ask you this: if John’s job was to make “the Lord’s” way straight, and if Jesus and this prophet were the same person, then why did John just stand there and say nothing *about* it? Why didn’t he correct these guys when they spoke of the two as different people? It was his job! And *he* was a prophet too, wasn’t he? As in, a person whose purpose is to teach people the truth? The unmistakable tone throughout the entire conversation was one of mutual consent on the matter! No one reading this passage with no biases coloring his perceptions would follow the standard Christian interpretation.
Speaking of which, who else do we know who still hadn’t come along by that point and who went by the designation “The Prophet”? Just throwing it out there. Again, it’s not my book.
Second, regarding what the Deuteronomy passage means by “from among your brothers” a “brother” was a follower of Jahweh as opposed to one of those enemy pagans, and this is a category which Muhammad *definitely* fit into. “Allah” and “Jahweh” are just the same word in two different languages. Arabic Tanakhs and Bibles use “Allah” in place of the Tetragrammaton. Remember, Muhammad was not an Ishmaelite from the age of Genesis but a medieval Saudi descendant and this passage is a reference to an unidentified future time. It doesn’t give any hints as to where this prophet will come from. It doesn’t say when this all will happen or what foreign relations with anybody will be like then. But one thing it most definitely does *not* refer to is an ethnic group. The concept didn’t even exist back then: “race” is a modern idea that people fabricated a couple of centuries ago and which has little basis in objective genetic reality. Some verses in the Torah, I’ll grant, do make the ancient Jews come across as cliquishly using the term “brother” as an appellation to separate each other from foreigners but that’s because they had formed a nation and were often at war with those enemy pagans I spoke of. At that time this nation was the only game in town; by Muhammad’s own time it was different. Really, think about this: do you actually suppose that their sense of togetherness boiled down to things like whether someone mixed milk with meat and not which deity he believed in? From very early on it was explicit in the Old Testament that belief in the oneness of God is what is important. This is why the very first commandment was to not have any other gods before Him. This is why the most *important* commandment, even according to the Gospels, is supposed to be, “Hear, o Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” This is why numero uno on every list of complaints with the rival nations was always the pagan gods they worshiped. In fact in Genesis 35 the very *name* “Israel” was coined in the first place as a reward for Jacob cleansing the Bethel area of its paganism. Before the advent of Christianity *any* servant of the one true God was a “son” of God and therefore by implication a brother to the others. “Son of God” and “servant of God” were understood to mean the same thing. If you don’t believe me then read Exodus 4:22-23: “Thus says Jahweh, ‘Israel is my son, my firstborn, and I have said to you, Let my son go, that he may serve me.” See how the term “son” is defined functionally as a servant here? But it’s not just Israel: the book of Job, for instance, repeatedly refers to the angels as “sons of God” too. If you don’t even have to belong to the same *species* to qualify, why would you have to be a member of the same nation?
Third, it’s theoretically possible—again I’m just throwing it out there—that the “like Moses” part isn’t even very meaningful to begin with. That could just be an extension of the “among your brothers” part, i.e. “I’m going to raise up a prophet from among your fellow believers in Myself the one true god—just as you, Moses, are a prophet of the one true god.” One way or another Muhammad *does* fit the analogy better. Moses was sent to *establish* a set of laws, not fulfill them, and to free his people from pagan tyrants and flee from one region into another, and also establish among his people the worship of Jahweh-Or-Whatever-You-Want-To-Call-The-God-Of-Abraham. Does that sound more like the life of Jesus to *you*?
First off it doesn’t matter one tiny whit to a Muslim if the New Testament claims that Jesus (P) was this “prophet like unto Moses” mentioned in Deuteronomy 18. There isn’t a single *mention* of the New Testament anywhere in the Koran, let alone an endorsement. As I’ve explained to people a trillion times before, the Gospel the Koran *does* endorse is not any of the biblical Gospels but rather one of the many lost Gospels outside of the Bible. Surah 5, verse 110 and surah 57, verse 27 explains that this Gospel was revealed directly to Jesus himself and as such he had some sort of hand in its writing: obviously this does not apply to any of the four canonical Gospels. If it had been one of them then the parable in surah 48, verse 29 would have had a biblical parallel. It doesn’t. The New Testament hardly has a good track record when it comes to understanding Old Testament prophecy anyway. For example Matthew 27:9-10 cites the wrong book altogether, referring to Jeremiah when it seems to mean Zechariah 11:12-13. Assuming that was even meant to be a prophecy, which in context it doesn’t look like it was. Very few of them ever do look like prophecies in context.
And when you think about it, it shouldn’t even be a supreme priority to a *Christian* if the New Testament says that the Deuteronomy passage refers to Jesus. The New Testament doesn’t even consider *itself* to be inerrant. Oh yeah, I’ll bet you didn’t know *that*, did you? Don’t throw 2 Timothy 3:16 at me: that’s referring to whatever was considered “scripture” in Paul’s *own* time and place. The New Testament couldn’t very well have existed while it was still being written, now could it? And on three different occasions (1 Corinthians 7:12 and 7:25, 2 Corinthians 11:17) St. Paul announces that what he’s about to tell us is all him and most definitely *not* inspired by God. Or is it an error when he implies that there might be errors? Besides, look at how the Testament seems to contradict itself on the issue of this prophet’s identity in John 1:
When the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask [John the Baptist], “Who are you?” he confessed, and didn’t deny, but he confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
They said therefore to him, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
He said, “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”
Now let me ask you this: if John’s job was to make “the Lord’s” way straight, and if Jesus and this prophet were the same person, then why did John just stand there and say nothing *about* it? Why didn’t he correct these guys when they spoke of the two as different people? It was his job! And *he* was a prophet too, wasn’t he? As in, a person whose purpose is to teach people the truth? The unmistakable tone throughout the entire conversation was one of mutual consent on the matter! No one reading this passage with no biases coloring his perceptions would follow the standard Christian interpretation.
Speaking of which, who else do we know who still hadn’t come along by that point and who went by the designation “The Prophet”? Just throwing it out there. Again, it’s not my book.
Second, regarding what the Deuteronomy passage means by “from among your brothers” a “brother” was a follower of Jahweh as opposed to one of those enemy pagans, and this is a category which Muhammad *definitely* fit into. “Allah” and “Jahweh” are just the same word in two different languages. Arabic Tanakhs and Bibles use “Allah” in place of the Tetragrammaton. Remember, Muhammad was not an Ishmaelite from the age of Genesis but a medieval Saudi descendant and this passage is a reference to an unidentified future time. It doesn’t give any hints as to where this prophet will come from. It doesn’t say when this all will happen or what foreign relations with anybody will be like then. But one thing it most definitely does *not* refer to is an ethnic group. The concept didn’t even exist back then: “race” is a modern idea that people fabricated a couple of centuries ago and which has little basis in objective genetic reality. Some verses in the Torah, I’ll grant, do make the ancient Jews come across as cliquishly using the term “brother” as an appellation to separate each other from foreigners but that’s because they had formed a nation and were often at war with those enemy pagans I spoke of. At that time this nation was the only game in town; by Muhammad’s own time it was different. Really, think about this: do you actually suppose that their sense of togetherness boiled down to things like whether someone mixed milk with meat and not which deity he believed in? From very early on it was explicit in the Old Testament that belief in the oneness of God is what is important. This is why the very first commandment was to not have any other gods before Him. This is why the most *important* commandment, even according to the Gospels, is supposed to be, “Hear, o Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” This is why numero uno on every list of complaints with the rival nations was always the pagan gods they worshiped. In fact in Genesis 35 the very *name* “Israel” was coined in the first place as a reward for Jacob cleansing the Bethel area of its paganism. Before the advent of Christianity *any* servant of the one true God was a “son” of God and therefore by implication a brother to the others. “Son of God” and “servant of God” were understood to mean the same thing. If you don’t believe me then read Exodus 4:22-23: “Thus says Jahweh, ‘Israel is my son, my firstborn, and I have said to you, Let my son go, that he may serve me.” See how the term “son” is defined functionally as a servant here? But it’s not just Israel: the book of Job, for instance, repeatedly refers to the angels as “sons of God” too. If you don’t even have to belong to the same *species* to qualify, why would you have to be a member of the same nation?
Third, it’s theoretically possible—again I’m just throwing it out there—that the “like Moses” part isn’t even very meaningful to begin with. That could just be an extension of the “among your brothers” part, i.e. “I’m going to raise up a prophet from among your fellow believers in Myself the one true god—just as you, Moses, are a prophet of the one true god.” One way or another Muhammad *does* fit the analogy better. Moses was sent to *establish* a set of laws, not fulfill them, and to free his people from pagan tyrants and flee from one region into another, and also establish among his people the worship of Jahweh-Or-Whatever-You-Want-To-Call-The-God-Of-Abraham. Does that sound more like the life of Jesus to *you*?
Last edited:
Grace Seeker
IB Legend
- Messages
- 5,343
- Reaction score
- 617
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Fine. But then there is no purpose in the repeated efforts of so many Muslims to "prove" to us Christians that Muhammad is mentioned in our scriptures, is there?
You mean like the Paraclete verse and in the Song of Songs and all that? There's no need for a Muslim to find such things, no, and it's water off a duck's back for us if the Christians are right about them. I'm not very concerned about them personally. The Gospel of "John", for example, was a non-synoptic, Johnny-come-lately text written by an anonymous author who very likely did not witness a single thing he wrote. It's probably even less reliable than the other three.