Prophet Noah and The Flood...

[Tyrion]

I was just wondering... how exactly does the islamic version of the story of noah and the flood go? Does islam teach that it was a global flood, or just one area of the world that flooded? How exactly does Islam say this all happened? This is just one of those stories that really frustrates me because i've heard so many versions, some of which dont make any sense to me, and some which just dont seem possible... thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[Güven]

Prophet Nuh/Noah (pbuh)
Ibn Kathir​

He was Noah Ibn Lamik, Ibn Mitoshilkh, Ibn Enoch, Ibn yard, Ibn Mahlabeel, Ibn Qinan, Ibn Anoush, Ibn Seth, Ibn Adam the Father of Mankind (PBUH).

According to the history of the People of the Book, (refers to the Jews, and Christians, so called by Allah because they received Revealed Books, Taurat, Zabur and Injeel. These names are translated 'Torah, Psalms, and Gospels' respectively, but the books that are extent are corrupt. Of the Revealed Books, ONLY the Quran remains exactly as it was revealed).

the period between the birth of Noah and the death of Adam was 146 years. (According to Genesis 5 (new Revised Standard Version), Noah was born one hundred and twenty six years after the death of Adam. Ibn Abbas narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "The period between Adam and Noah was ten centuries." (Sahih Bukhari, Noah was born 1056 years after Adam's creation (or after he left the Garden of Eden). Thus, this hadith does not contradict the previous statement from the People of the Book as it may first appear to do. The reader should keep in mind, however that any statement or narratives taken from the People of the Book are not necessarily credible. This was taken from Genesis 5).

For many generations Noah's people had been worshipping statues that they called gods. They believed that these gods would bring them good, protect them from evil and provide all their needs. They gave their idols names such as Waddan, Suwa'an, Yaghutha, Ya'auga, and Nasran, (These idols represented, respectively, manly power; mutability, beauty; brute strength, swiftness, sharp sight, insight) according to the power they thought these gods possessed.

Allah the Almighty revealed: "They (idolaters) have said: "You shall not leave your gods nor shall you leave Wadd, nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth, nor Ya uq nor Nasr (names of the idols)." (CH 71:23 Quran).

Originally these were the names of good people who had lived among them. After their deaths, statues of them were erected to keep their memories alive. After sometime, however, people began to worship these statues. Later generations did not even know why they had been erected; they only knew their parents had prayed to them. That is how idol worshipping developed. Since they had no understanding of Allah the Almighty Who would punish them for their evil deeds, they became cruel and immoral.

Ibn Abbas explained: "Following upon the death of those righteous men, Satan inspired their people to erect statues in the places where they used to sit. They did this, but these statues were not worshiped until the coming generations deviated from the right way of life. Then they worshipped them as their idols."

In his version, Ibn Jarir narrated: "There were righteous people who lived in the period between Adam and Noah and who had followers who held them as models. After their death, their friends who used to emulate them said: 'If we make statues of them, it will be more pleasing to us in our worship and will remind us of them.' So they built statues of them, and , after they had died and others came after them, Iblis crept into their minds saying:'Your forefathers used to worship them, and through that worship they got rain.' So they worshipped them."

Ibn Abi Hatim related this story: "Waddan was a righteous man who was loved by his people. When he died, they withdrew to his grave in the land of Babylonia and were overwhelmed by sadness. When Iblis saw their sorrow caused by his death, he disguised himself in the form of a man saying: 'I have seen your sorrow because of this man's death; can I make a statue like him which could be put in your meeting place to make you remember him?' They said: 'Yes.'

So he made the statue like him. They put it in their meeting place in order to be reminded of him. When Iblis saw their interest in remembering him, he said: 'Can I build a statue of him in the home of each one of you so that he would be in everyone's house and you could remember him?'

They agreed. Their children learned about and saw what they were doing. They also learned about their remembrance of him instead of Allah. So the first to be worshipped instead of Allah was Waddan, the idol which they named thus."

The essence of this point is that every idol from those earlier mentioned was worshipped by a certain group of people. It was mentioned that people made picture sand as the ages passed they made these pictures into statues, so that their forms could be fully recognized; afterwards they were worshipped instead of Allah.

It was narrated that Umm Salmah and Umm Habibah told Allah's Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) about the church called "Maria" which they had seen in the land of Abyssinia. They described its beauty and the pictures therein. He said: "Those are the people who build places of worship on the grave of every dead man who was righteous and then make therein those pictures. Those are the worst of creation unto Allah." (Sahih al Bukhari).

Worshipping anything other than Allah is a tragedy that results not only in the loss of freedom; its serious effect reaches man's mind and destroys it as well. Almighty Allah created man and his mind with its purpose set on achieving knowledge the most important of which is that Allah alone is the Creator and all the rest are worshippers (slaves). Therefore, disbelief in Allah, or polytheism, results in the loss of freedom, the destruction of the mind, and the absence of a noble target in life. (By worshipping anything other than Allah, man becomes enslaved to Satan, who is himself a creature and becomes harnessed to his own baser qualities).

Into this environment Allah sent Noah with His message to his people. Noah was the only intellectual not caught in the whirlpool of man's destruction which was caused by polytheism.

Allah is His Mercy sent His messenger Noah to guide his people. Noah was an excellent speaker and a very patient man. He pointed out to his people the mysteries of life and the wonders of the universe. He pointed out how the night is regularly followed by the day and that the balance between these opposites were designed by Allah the Almighty for our good. The night gives coolness and rest while the day gives warmth and awakens activity. The sun encourages growth, keeping all plants and animals alive, while the moon and stars assist in the reckoning of time, direction and seasons. He pointed out that the ownership of the heavens and the earth belongs only to the Divine Creator.

Therefore, he explained to this people, there cannot have been more than one deity. He clarified to them how the devil had deceived them for so long and that the time had come for this deceit to stop. Noah spoke to them of Allah's glorification of man, how HE had created him and provided him with sustenance and the blessings of a mind. He told them that idol worshipping was a suffocating injustice to the mind. He warned them not to worship anyone but Allah and described the terrible punishment Allah would mete out if they continued in their evil ways.

The people listened to him in silence. His words were a shock to their stagnating minds as it is a shock to a person who is asleep under a wall which is about to fall and who is vigorously awakened. This person may be alarmed and may even become angry although the aim was to save him.

Noah's people were divided into two groups after his warning. His words touched the hearts of the weak, the poor, and the miserable and soothed their wounds with its mercy. As for the rich, the strong, the mighty and the rulers they looked upon the warning with cold distrust. They believed they would be better off if things stayed as they were. Therefore they started their war of words against Noah.

First they accused Noah of being only human like themselves. 'The chiefs of the disbeliveers among his people said: "We see you but a man like ourselves."' (Ch 11:27 Quran) He, however, had never said anything other than that. He asserted that, indeed, he was only a human being; Allah had sent a human messenger because the earth winhabited by humans. If it had been inhabited by angels Allah would have sent an angelic messenger.

The contest between the polytheists and Noah continued. the rulers had thought at first that Noah's call would soon fade on its own. When they found that his call attracted the poor, the helpless and common laborers, they started to verbally attack and taunt him: 'You are only followed by the poor, the meek and the worthless.'

Allah the Almighty told us: "Indeed We sent Noah to his people (he said): "I have come to you as a plain Warner that you worship none but Allah, surely, I fear for you the torment of a painful Day." the chiefs of the disbeliveers among his people said: "We see you but a man like ourselves, nor do we see any follow you but the meanest among us and they too followed you without thinking. And we do not see in you any merit above us in fact we think you are liars." (CH 11:25-27).

Thus the conflict between Noah and the heads of his people intensified. The disbeliveers tried to bargain: "Listen Noah, if you want us to believe in you, then dismiss your believers. They are meek and poor, while are elite and rich; no faith c an include us both." Noah listened to the heathens of his community and realized they were being obstinate. However, he was gentle in his response. He explained to his people that he could not dismiss the believers as they were not his guests but Allah's.

Noah appealed to them: "O my people! I ask of you no wealth for it, my reward is from none but Allah. I am not going to drive away those who have believed. Surely, they are going to meet their Lord, but I see that you are a people that are ignorant. O my people! Who will help me against Allah, if I drove them away? Will you not then give a thought? And I do not say to you that with me are the Treasures of Allah nor that I know the unseen, nor do I say I am an angel, and I do not say of those whom your eyes look down upon that Allah will not bestow any good on them. Allah knows what is in their inner selves (regards to Belief). In that case, I should, indeed be one of the Zalimeen (wrongdoers, oppressors etc)." (Ch 11:29-31 Quran)

Noah refuted the arguments of the disbeliveers with the noble knowledge of the prophets. It is the logic of intellect that rids itself of personal pride and interests.

The rulers were tired of Noah's arguments. Allah the Exalted related their attitude: They said: "O Noah! You have disputed with us and much have you prolonged the dispute with us, now bring upon us what you threaten us with, if you are of the truthful." He said: "Only Allah will bring it (the punishment)on you, if He will, and then you will escape not. And my advice will not profit you, even if I wish to give you counsel, if Allah's Will is to keep you astray. He is your Lord! And to Him you shall return." (Ch 11:32-34 Quran)

The battle continued; the arguments between the disbeliveers and Noah became prolonged. When all the refutations of the disbeliveers collapsed and they had no more to say, they began to be rude and insulted Allah's prophet: 'The leaders of his people said: "Verily, we see you in plain error." (Ch 7:60 Quran)

Noah responded in the manner of the prophets: "O my people! There is no error in me, but I am a Messenger from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists)! I convey unto you the Messages of my Lord and give sincere advice to you. And I know from Allah what you know not." (CH 7:61-62 Quran)

Noah continued appealing to his people to believe in Allah hour after hour, day after day year after year. He admonished his people and called them to Allah day and night, in secret and openly. HE gave them examples, explained Allah's signs and illustrated Allah's ability in the formation of His creatures. But whenever he called them to Allah, they ran away from him. Whenever he urged them to ask Allah to forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears and became too proud to listen to the truth.

Allah the Almighty related what Noah faced: Verily, We sent Noah to his people saying: "Warn your people before there comes to them a painful torment."


He said: "O my people! Verily, I am a plain Warner to you, that you should worship Allah alone, be dutiful to Him and obey me, He (Allah) will forgive you of your sins and respite you to an appointed term. Verily, the term of Allah when it comes, cannot be delayed, if you but knew."

He said: "O my Lord! Verily, I have called my people night and day (secretly and openly to accept the doctrine of Islamic Monotheism), but all my calling added nothing but to their flight from the truth. Verily! Everytime I called unto them that You might forgive them, they thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, and persisted (in their refusal), and magnified themselves in pride. Then verily, I called to them openly (aloud); then verily, I proclaimed to them in public, and I have appealed to them in private, I said to them: 'Ask forgiveness from your Lord, Verily, He is Oft Forgiving; He will send rain to you in abundance, and give you increase in wealth and children, and bestow on you gardens and bestow on you rivers."

What is the matter with you, that you fear not Allah (His Punishment), and you hope not for reward from Allah or you believe not in His Oneness. While He has created you in different stages. (Ch 23:13-14 Quran)

See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and has made the moon a light therein and made the sun a lamp? And Allah has brought you forth from the dust of earth. Afterwards He will return you into it (the earth), and bring you forth (again on the Day of Resurrection) Allah has made for you the earth wide spread (an expanse) that you may go about therein broad roads.

Noah said: "My Lord! They have disobeyed me, and followed one whose wealth and children give him no increase but only loss. They have plotted a mighty plot. They have said: 'you shall not leave your gods, nor shall you leave wadd, nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth, nor ya'uq nor Nasr (names of the idols). Indeed they have led many astray. O Allah! Grant no increase to the Zalimeen (polytheists, wrongdoers, and disbeliveers etc) save error."

Because of their sins they were drowned, then were made to enter the Fire and they found none to help them instead of Allah. (Ch 71:1-25 Quran).

Noah continued to call his people to believe in Allah for nine hundred fifty years. Allah the Almighty said: Indeed We sent Noah to his people and he stayed among them a thousand years less fifty years (inviting them to believe in the Oneness of Allah (Monotheism) and discard the false gods and other deities). (Ch 29:14 Quran)

It happened that every passing generation admonished the succeeding one not to believe Noah and to wage war against him. the father used to teach his child about the matter that was between himself and Noah and counsel him to reject his call when he reached adulthood. Their natural disposition rejected believing and following the truth.

Noah saw that the number of believers was not increasing, while that of the disbeliveers was. He was sad for his people, but he never reached the point of despair.

There came a day when Allah revealed to Noah that no others would believe. Allah inspired him not to grieve for them at which point Noah prayed that the disbeliveers be destroyed. He said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbeliveers on the earth. If you leave them, they will mislead Your slaves and they will beget none but wicked disbeliveers." (Ch 71:27 Quran)

Allah accepted Noah's prayer. The case was closed, and He passed His judgment on the disbeliveers in the form of a flood. Allah the Exalted ordered His worshipper Noah to build an ark with His knowledge and instructions and with the help of angels. Almighty Allah commanded: "And construct the ship under Our Eyes and with Our Inspiration and address Me not on behalf of those who did wrong; they are surely to be drowned." (Ch 11:37 Quran)

Noah chose a place outside the city, far from the sea. HE collected wood and tools and began to day and night to build the ark. The people's mockery continued: "O Noah! Does carpentry appeal to you more than prophethood? Why are you building an ark so far from the sea? Are you going to drag it to the water or is the wind going to carry it for you?" Noah replied: "You will come to know who will be put to shame and suffer."

Allah the Almighty narrated: As he was constructing the ship, whenever the chiefs of his people passed by him, they made a mockery of him. He said : "If you mock at us, so do we mock at you likewise for your mocking. And you will know who it is on whom will come a torment that will cover him with disgrace and on whom will fall a lasting torment." (Ch 11:38-39 Quran)

The ship was constructed, and Noah sat waiting Allah's command. Allah revealed to him that when water miraculously gushed forth from the oven at Noah's house, that would be the sign of the start of the flood, and the sign for Noah to act.

The terrible day arrived when the oven at Noah's house overflowed. Noah hurried to open the ark and summon the believers. He also took with him a pair, male and female, of every type of animal, bird and insect. Seeing him taking these creatures to the ark, the people laughed loudly: "Noah must have gone out of his head! What is he going to do with the animals?"

Almighty Allah narrated: So it was till then there came Our Command and the oven gushed forth (water like fountains from the earth). We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family, except him against whom the Word has already gone forth, and those who believe." And none believed him except a few. (Ch 11:40 Quran)

Noah's wife was not a believer with him so she did not join him; neither did one of Noah's sons, who was secretly a disbeliever but had pretended faith in front of Noah. Likewise most of the people were disbeliveers and did not go on board.

The scholars hold different opinions on the number of those who were with Noah on the ship. Ibn Abbas stated that there were 80 believers while Ka ab al Ahbar held that there were 72 believers. Others claimed that there were 10 believers with Noah.

Water rose from the cracks in the earth; there was not a crack from which water did not rise. rain poured from the sky in quantities never seen before on earth. Water continued pouring from the sky rising from the cracks; hour after hour the level rose. The seas and waves invaded the land. The interior of the earth moved in a strange way, and the ocean floors lifted suddenly, flooding the dry land. The earth, for the first time was submerged.

Allah told the story thus: He (Noah) said: "Embark therein in the Name of Allah will be its moving course and its resting anchorage. Surely, my Lord is Oft Forgiving, most Merciful." so it (the ship) sailed with them amidst the waves like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (apart), "O my son! Embark with us and be not with the disbeliveers." The son replied, "I will betake myself to a mountain, it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day there is no savior from the Decree of Allah except him on whom He has mercy." And a wave came in between them so he (the son) was among the drowned.

It was said: "O Earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain)." The water was diminished (made to subside) and the Decree (of Allah) was fulfilled (the destruction of the people of Noah). And it (the ship) rested on Mount Judi, and it was said: "Away with the people who are Zalimeen (polytheists, and wrongdoing)!"

Noah called upon his Lord and said, "O my Lord! Verily, my son is of my family! Certainly, Your Promise is true, and You are the Most Just of the judges." HE said: "O Noah! Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants."

Noah said: "O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers."

It was said: "O Noah! Come down (from the ship) with peace from Us and blessings on you and on the people o\who are with you(and on some of their offspring), but (there will be other) people to whom We shall grant their pleasures (for a time), but in the end a painful torment will reach them from Us." (Ch 11:41-48 Quran)

With the issue of the divine command, calm returned to earth, the water retreated, and the dry land shone once again in the rays of the sun. The flood had cleansed the earth of the disbeliveers and polytheists.

Noah released the birds, and the beats which scattered over the earth. After that the believers disembarked. Noah put his forehead to the ground in prostration. The survivors kindled a fire and sat around it. Lighting a fire had been prohibited on board so as not to ignite the ship's wood and burn it up. None of them had eaten hot food during the entire period of the floor. Following the disembarkation there was a day of fasting in thanks to Allah.

The Quran draws the curtain on Noah's story. We do not know how his affairs with his people continued. All we know or can ascertain is that on his deathbed he requested his son to worship Allah alone, Noah then passed away.

Abdullah Ibn Amru Ibn Al as narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "When the death of the Messenger of Allah Noah approached, the admonished his sons: 'Indeed I would give you far reaching advice, commanding you to do 2 things, and warning you against doing 2 things as well. I charge you to believe that there is no god but Allah and that if the seven heavens and the seven earths were put on one side of a scale and the words "there is no god but Allah" were put on the other, the latter would outweigh the former. I warn you against associating partners with Allah and against pride." (Sahih al Bukhari)

Some traditions said that his grave is in the Scared Mosque in Mecca, while others said that he was buried in Baalabak, a city in Iraq.

source

 

[Imam]

I was just wondering... how exactly does the islamic version of the story of noah and the flood go? Does islam teach that it was a global flood.

We don't have a clue in the Quran that it was a global flood .....all what is said is that the unbelievers in Noah's people were drowned ...

The only possible way to argue that it was a global flood ,is to provide a Quranic clue that the (people of Noah) means (all humanity living such period) and they were spread all over the Earth

[007:059] We sent Noah to his people. He said: "O my people! worship God! ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful day!

[025:037] And the people of Noah,- when they rejected the apostles, We drowned them, and We made them as a Sign for mankind...


the sign has been given to other nations living by them....... exactly as the sign of the pharaohs who were drowned in the sea...

peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The only possible way to argue that it was a global flood ,is to provide a Quranic clue that the (people of Noah) means (all humanity living such period)

But you could also argue that the entire humanity lived in a limited location, especially if Noah came shortly after Adam.

But there's this:
So We inspired him (with this message): "Construct the Ark within Our sight and under Our guidance: then when comes Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gush forth, take thou on board pairs of every species, male and female, and thy family- except those of them against whom the Word has already gone forth: And address Me not in favour of the wrong-doers; for they shall be drowned (in the Flood).

It's unlikely that only Noah's palce and its surroundings were populated with animals, so it makes sense that the flood was universal otherwise there'd be no need to take a pair of every species to the ark.

 

[Charzhino]

A global flood however is no where to be recorded and observed in the geological timescalde of the Earth, so prehaps it was only a local or nationwide flood, instead of a global one.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

A global flood however is no where to be recorded and observed in the geological timescalde of the Earth, so prehaps it was only a local or nationwide flood, instead of a global one.

That or certain books aren't all that accurate..

 

[Imam]

But you could also argue that the entire humanity lived in a limited location, especially if Noah came shortly after Adam..

greetings

If that is true, that would mean the entire humanity(Noah's people) lived in a limited location and hence logically the flood was not global

as the reason for it is to punish the transgressors, so why would the flood include uninhabited areas in our planet?!....

peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

greetings

If that is true, that would mean the entire humanity(Noah's people) lived in a limited location and hence logically the flood was not global

I know, that's what I meant (an xample of how an islamic apologist could argue) but I added the animals verse to show evidence of the contrary.

 

[Imam]

I added the animals verse to show evidence of the contrary.

and the animals verse doesn't suggest it to be global either ...
making such animals(we don't know what kind of such animals,as the verse doesn't say all kinds of animals in the globe ..but it is logically supposed to be such animals exist in their land) to survive in THEIR OWN LAND doesn't mean making all animals to survive in the whole globe....

 

[Whatsthepoint]

and the animals verse doesn't suggest it to be global either ...
making such animals(we don't know what kind of such animals,as the verse doesn't say all kinds of animals in the globe ..but it is logically supposed to be such animals exist in their land) to survive in THEIR OWN LAND doesn't mean making all animals to survive in the whole globe....

It says every animal, not every animal in your land.
The only way for this to be a local flood is that all the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived.

 

[Zafran]

salaam

it says every animal - possibly every animal Noah knew in his region - Ultimatley its preety open - time will only tell how large the flood was.

peace.

 

[Imam]

It says every animal, not every animal in your land.

you know that It literally doesn't say every animal at all ?


23:27 فاوحينا اليه ان اصنع الفلك باعيننا ووحينا فاذا جاء امرنا وفار التنور فاسلك فيها من كل زوجين اثنين واهلك الا من سبق عليه القول منهم ولاتخاطبني في الذين ظلموا انهم مغرقون

literal


[023:027] Thus, We inspired him, “Build an ark under My supervision and instructions. When our order comes water bubbling out of the oven, Carry into it of every kind a pair , and your family.


but we can from the context of the story infer the meaning to refer to animals and we can infer the meaning to be the animals living by then.......


we have already seen how the text suggests the people of Noah as a tribe and the punishment directed at those specific transgressors...so it is wisely to understand that God wasn't ordering Noah to waste his time moving around the earth collecting all pairs of animals !! but instead such animals known to him and his people..

 

[Tony]

I saw a documentary last year that showed geological and oceanic pointers to the earth having been completley flooded at some point. sorry cant remember anything other than it seemed quite beleivable

 

[Imam]

I saw a documentary last year that showed geological and oceanic pointers to the earth having been completley flooded at some point. sorry cant remember anything other than it seemed quite beleivable

we are not discussing the idea of the possibility of past global flood ...

we discuss whether the quran has such idea or not

1- The flood was act of punishment of a specific group of transgressors (Noah's people)

2- If we view Noah's people as the the only mankind living on our planet such time,then the flood may only been global if they filled the whole Earth in huge number and that is impossible....

3-The idea that most of the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived(such ancient time) ,is possible too...... but the other idea as I explained before goes better with the Quranic context...

 

[Tony]

Sorry+o-[

 

[Imam]

Sorry+o-[

no problem Bro ....May God bless you

 

[Whatsthepoint]

you know that It literally doesn't say every animal at all ?


23:27 فاوحينا اليه ان اصنع الفلك باعيننا ووحينا فاذا جاء امرنا وفار التنور فاسلك فيها من كل زوجين اثنين واهلك الا من سبق عليه القول منهم ولاتخاطبني في الذين ظلموا انهم مغرقون

literal


[023:027] Thus, We inspired him, “Build an ark under My supervision and instructions. When our order comes water bubbling out of the oven, Carry into it of every kind a pair , and your family.


but we can from the context of the story infer the meaning to refer to animals and we can infer the meaning to be the animals living by then.......
Hmmm, living by then? That would require evolution, wouldn't it? Not only that, it would require evidence that several species of animals evolved once humans were the way we are today.

we have already seen how the text suggests the people of Noah as a tribe and the punishment directed at those specific transgressors...so it is wisely to understand that God wasn't ordering Noah to waste his time moving around the earth collecting all pairs of animals !! but instead such animals known to him and his people..

Ok, let's say he did only take animals he knew and the flood was local.

1. why bother taking animals at all? If the flood was local they could run away, as they have with so many natural disasters.
2. why bother saving animals if they would survive in the non-flooded parts of the world?
3. Let's say he only saved animals endemyc to the flooded area, meaning animals that lived there and nowhere else. If the flood was local, that number would be fairly small, so no point in building a gaint barge. You could argue that the flood was local, but still big, however at some point even a local flood will turn into a global flood.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

we are not discussing the idea of the possibility of past global flood ...

we discuss whether the quran has such idea or not

1- The flood was act of punishment of a specific group of transgressors (Noah's people)

2- If we view Noah's people as the the only mankind living on our planet such time,then the flood may only been global if they filled the whole Earth in huge number and that is impossible....

3-The idea that most of the fauna, including humans, was concentrated in the area Noah lived(such ancient time) ,is possible too...... but the other idea as I explained before goes better with the Quranic context...

1 is wrong because the Quran states the entire humanity descended from the survivals on that boat.
The only viable option is no 3 but its got serious flaws.

 

[Imam]

If the flood was local they could run away, as they have with so many natural disasters..

I didn't claim that the ship is to enable them to run away to the non-flooded parts of the world .....there is no Quranic clue for that....

3. Let's say he only saved animals endemyc to the flooded area, meaning animals that lived there and nowhere else. If the flood was local, that number would be fairly small, so no point in building a gaint barge. .

Let's say he saved all kinds of animals on earth.but building a barge whatever gaint can by no mean include all kinds of animals on Earth....

is wrong because the Quran states the entire humanity descended from the survivals on that boat.

I didn't find a Quranic support for that .....that is only what traditions tell..

If there is Quranic support to such idea ,then again we have the term Humanity then equals Noah's people ..... who were living in a limited location,and the transgressors of some of them been punished by a limited flood suitable to their limited location and limited number....

Again why would God flood the whole planet to drown few people in a limited location....!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I didn't claim that the ship is to enable them to run away to the non-flooded parts of the world .....there is no Quranic clue for that....

I meant animals could escape to the non-flooded places of the world, so there'd be no need to build a giant ark but rather a small boat capable of holding Noah and his family.
coem to think of it, if the aim of the whole thing was to punish a local froup of sinners, god could have told Noah to move out of town untill things dry up..

Let's say he saved all kinds of animals on earth.but building a barge whatever gaint can by no mean include all kinds of animals on Earth....

Yes, I know, but you're committing a logical fallacy here. You're assuming the Quran is wrong and because it is impossible the Quran doesn't say it. There's also a second option, the Quran thought it was posible to carry every living speicies on that barge, which is plausible seeing how it first appeared in a desert.

I didn't find a Quranic support for that .....that is only what traditions tell..

If there is Quranic support to such idea ,then again we have the term Humanity then equals Noah's people ..... who were living in a limited location,and the transgressors of some of them been punished by a limited flood suitable to their limited location and limited number....

Again why would God flood the whole planet to drown few people in a limited location....!

The Quran deosn't says they were living in a limited loction, that's a presumtion.

And besides, the Quran says the ark landed on a mountain, you can't have a local flood covering mountains.