Prophet Noah and The Flood...

[Grace Seeker]

ah.. enjoyed how you switched your story there..Noah was sent to his family because there was wickedness 'upon the world' .. and alas you admit God was out to 'blot all of humanity' but giving only fair warning to Noah's family.. all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant..

all the best

I've not once switched my story. Based upon some of your previous posts, I highly doubt that you have taken the time to read my posts carefully enough to be able to accurately reflect what I have actually said. I've said all along that the Bible never says that Noah was sent to anyone. (Without taking one of my comments out of context, can you point to where I have said otherwise?) That's exactly why I have be disagreeing with your presentation of what the Bible says, because you are saying something for it that it doesn't actually say.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Graceseeker - Are you saying that you believe that GOD can feel sorrow that He has to wipe out almost all of humanity because of their sin?

Using the King Saul story, God is sorry that He had to choose Saul:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But he would make him King again because he was the best choice. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

If it came to it again GOD would cause the flood, the desicion was a good one.

My opinion as to what happened is really irrelevant for the present discussion. I'm just trying to be sure that the Bible is represented as saying what it actually says, and not what others project it as having said.

If it came to it again, what God himself says regarding the flood is:

Genesis 9

8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.[/b["

12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."

17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."

 

[جوري]

I've not once switched my story. Based upon some of your previous posts, I highly doubt that you have taken the time to read my posts carefully enough to be able to accurately reflect what I have actually said. I've said all along that the Bible never says that Noah was sent to anyone. (Without taking one of my comments out of context, can you point to where I have said otherwise?) That's exactly why I have be disagreeing with your presentation of what the Bible says, because you are saying something for it that it doesn't actually say.

here is what you said on the previous page:

Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.
.

How about this, define for us the purpose of Noah as per your bible based on the following verses:

'GENESIS: THE FLOOD Chapter 6: 5 And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the earth, and that all day the thoughts in his heart formed nothing but wickedness.
6 And Yahweh regretted having made man on the face of the earth, and his heart grieved.
7 And Yahweh said, "I will wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them."

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/HEBREWS/GENFLOOD.HTM


what was the purpose of Noah.. and why would God **** the entire earth without giving a fair warning if he (Noah) was only sent to his family?!

Sometimes I wonder what you sell your congregation that they lap up and how you answer questions as they come about, as you either twist your religion to hide the absurdities therein or are not very forth coming about your beliefs.. and expect folks to extract your desired meaning as questions arise!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

The purpose of Noah is the same as that of any of the rest of humanity, to live a righteous life honoring God.

As to why God would not warn the rest of the world, I don't know. But there is no record that he did. Likewise, there is no record that he did not. There is no record either way, so we can't say what God did or didn't do in that regard. Therefore I don't think we should say either way. God certainly doesn't have to answer to humanity for choosing to do so or not do so. Do you not have a saying in Islam: "Allah knows best."?

 

[Follower]

Oh, my post should have been directed to Gossamer. Where in the world you get this Gossamer?!-all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant..

 

[جوري]

The purpose of Noah is the same as that of any of the rest of humanity, to live a righteous life honoring God.

Then why is he mentioned in the bible? lots of people live righteous lives, why him?

As to why God would not warn the rest of the world, I don't know. But there is no record that he did. Likewise, there is no record that he did not. There is no record either way, so we can't say what God did or didn't do in that regard. Therefore I don't think we should say either way. God certainly doesn't have to answer to humanity for choosing to do so or not do so. Do you not have a saying in Islam: "Allah knows best."?

Well if you shouldn't say either way, then why did you say he was sent only to his family to warn them about a global flood?

 

[Follower]

Gossamer- there is no need to attack me personally in private. You are the one that said- "all whilst feeling pangs of pain and regret and remorse in his heart? Brilliant"

I had understood it to mean that in fact Graceseeker had said it and thus my question to you is-

Do you or Muslims believe that GOD can feel sorrow that He has to wipe out almost all of humanity because of their sin, by flooding the earth?

Do you/muslims understand that if all of humanity was sinning horribly that GOD would cause the flood again, because the desicion was a good one?

Using the King Saul story, GOD is sorry that He had to choose Saul:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But GOD would make him King again because he was the best choice. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

 

[Follower]

What were the spiritual conditions before the flood that gave GOD a reason to cause the flood?

Genesis 6
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

Genesis 6
18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you.

The pool to choose from was limited and Noah was GOD's best choice-
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation

 

[جوري]

you must know by now that I read nothing by your person, I find you extremely ignorant, but at best a minor nuisance at best.. once you learn to read everything that is written and discern it can you come back and reply.. there is no point in your posting the same nonsense over and over rest assured if you have posted it on one page and it had no meaning or relevance that it will still hold no meaning or relevance on the subsequent pages.. what are your expectations when you quote me a biblical verse about God's ineffectuality and hypocrisy as per your book.?


all the best

 

[Follower]

Gossamer you also said - amazingly not only does god **** the earth but he also feels regret..
do you think while we are on the subject god regretted forsaking himself? also I like the thoughts in his heart and wickedness all very godlike traits..

Using the King Saul story, GOD is sorry that He had to choose Saul[ GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth]:
1 Samuel 15
11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

But GOD would make him King again because he was the best choice[destroying the people of the earth was the best choice that GOD had because of how depraved it had become]. GOD does not really need to feel repentant:
1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

 

[Follower]

Why would GOD want to destroy something that He had created? Something that He believed to be very good?

Do Muslims believe that GOD has emotions- or that He never feels regret, so that He only has some emotions? Which emotions does GOD have?

Genesis 1
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

Genesis 6
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

 

[Follower]

I should correct what I said -GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth

GOD is sorry that He made man!!

 

[Zafran]

I should correct what I said -GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth

GOD is sorry that He made man!!

salaam

so you believe the creation of humans is a mistake????:rollseyes

Just to add you contradcit the bible with this

-GOD is sorry that He has to flood the earth

Because God is beyond human emotion or anything like the world

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Maybe you need to read your bible and ask the Jews a bit more about there book

anthropomorphism is getting you in a mess - heres a tip when you talk about GOD dont anthropomorphise GOD because God is beyond and greater then anything in this world

 

[Grace Seeker]

salaam

so you believe the creation of humans is a mistake????:rollseyes

Just to add you contradcit the bible with this



Because God is beyond human emotion or anything like the world

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Maybe you need to read your bible and ask the Jews a bit more about there book

anthropomorphism is getting you in a mess - heres a tip when you talk about GOD dont anthropomorphise GOD because God is beyond and greater then anything in this world

I understood Follower to be trying to correct his previous statement. It is not that God is sorry he had to flood the earth but the Bible does speak of God, at this point in human history, regretting that he had made man. And, the reason God regrets having done so is because of the degree of wickedness that had come to consume humankind.

In answer to Skye's question, as I read this section of Genesis this wickedness is all pervasive, so that indeed Noah alone is singled out as being righteous.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well if you shouldn't say either way, then why did you say he was sent only to his family to warn them about a global flood?

Again, I believe a more careful reading of what I said will show that I did not say that Noah was sent to warn his family about a global flood. What I said was:

He [Noah] is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk".

I can see how you might have equated this second sentence with "warning" his family, but that is not what I was saying. Noah's responsibility is not to warn them, but to get them on the ark:

I [God] will establish my covenant with you [Noah], and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. (Genesis 6:18)

It is probable Noah warned his family, but warning them was not what his responsibilty was, getting them on the ark was the task God gave him. Should he warn them and they not get on the ark Noah would have failed in the job God gave him. And should he get them on the ark by some means other than warning them, he would have succeeded in the task God gave him.

So, I say again, the only people that Noah was responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives, and that responsibility was specifically to get them on the ark. God does not declare what means Noah was to use, but since he was being saved for being a righteous man, I am willing to assume that Noah used righteous means.

 

[Zafran]

I understood Follower to be trying to correct his previous statement. It is not that God is sorry he had to flood the earth but the Bible does speak of God, at this point in human history, regretting that he had made man. And, the reason God regrets having done so is because of the degree of wickedness that had come to consume humankind.

In answer to Skye's question, as I read this section of Genesis this wickedness is all pervasive, so that indeed Noah alone is singled out as being righteous.

again what about

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


How can God regret anything??? does that not contradcit the above.

 

[جوري]

Again, I believe a more careful reading of what I said will show that I did not say that Noah was sent to warn his family about a global flood. What I said was: I can see how you might have equated this second sentence with "warning" his family, but that is not what I was saying. Noah's responsibility is not to warn them, but to get them on the ark: It is probable Noah warned his family, but warning them was not what his responsibilty was, getting them on the ark was the task God gave him. Should he warn them and they not get on the ark Noah would have failed in the job God gave him. And should he get them on the ark by some means other than warning them, he would have succeeded in the task God gave him.

this was what you originally said then later modified when it was about to blow in your face:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Notice, according to the Biblical account Noah is has no message for anyone. He is not told by God to tell other people to repent, or warn them about a flood. The only people that he is responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives -- this would be in keeping with what the Qur'an says, "his own folk". (A little bit of math with the geneologies of Genesis shows that Noah even leaves his own grandfather Methuselah to die in the flood -or at least he died the same year as the flood.) But no where in the story is Noah sent to all of mankind. Mankind (except for Noah and his family) is to perish in the flood -- that was God's whole intent.

So, I say again, the only people that Noah was responsible for are his own family, wife and kids and their wives, and that responsibility was specifically to get them on the ark. God does not declare what means Noah was to use, but since he was being saved for being a righteous man, I am willing to assume that Noah used righteous means.

inconsequential on two levels
1- God doesn't do a global damage without giving fair warning to all involved, else where is the justice?
2- Noah being sent only to his family, see original quote is ridiculous on multiple levels

a- not worthy of an honorable mention in multiple revelations
b- can't send a global flood for a man out to save just one family and a few animals, he who created this bunch can create another bunch, the moral should be a caveat for those left behind to take heed not a fairy tale with multiple holes.
c- can't unleash a global flood only because god is 'regretting' a few ingrates in Mesopotamia .. regret and mass destruction seem to be more in concert with the nature of the created rather than the creator whom the scribes can't assume to think for; and pass out on ledger of folly to continue for generations..

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

again what about

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


How can God regret anything??? does that not contradcit the above.

The key to your question would be in getting behind the term that has been translated "grieved" in this verse:
Genesis 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

and the term that has been translated "change his mind" in the passage you quoted:
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

And even though I am not versed in Hebrew, I can use the reference tools well enough to discover that they are two different terms in Hebrews: `atsab aw-tsab' and nacham naw-kham', respectively. The words are not synonyms for one another, so each verse stands on its own without saying contradictory things.

 

[Grace Seeker]

this was what you originally said then later modified when it was about to blow in your face:

I said what I said. It is there for everyone to read. I believe my posts have been entirely consistent with one another and also with simply setting forth what the Bible actually says throughout this thread. If you see it differently that is your option, but it is an erroneous conclusion seeded in your hatred of all things Christian. Not even the posts you quote to make your point are antithetical to each other.

inconsequential on two levels
1- God doesn't do a global damage without giving fair warning to all involved, else where is the justice?

Says you.

2- Noah being sent only to his family, see original quote is ridiculous on multiple levels

Again, says you. But you are not the authority on what God can or cannot do. God is.

Further I all of this is because you made this statement:

^^^^ nice post I appreciate it, however according to suret al'moemnoon (23) in the Quran.. Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind) I don't know how heavily populated the earth was then.. but the verses are clear on the matter:

The parenthetical statement "Noah was sent to his folks not (all of man kind)" implies that you are responding to the suggestion that Noah was sent to all of mankind. I challenged you then and, since it went unaswered, I challenge you now:

Did someone say that Noah was sent to all of mankind?

I saw no post prior to yours suggesting that Noah had been sent to all of mankind. Nor do I see anything in the Bible to suggest that Noah was sent to all of mankind. So, where do you come from in making such a statement out of the blue? You post in response to something that no one has even said. And you have the audacity to call my post inconsequential. :giggling:

 

[Rabi'ya]

Assalamualaikum

I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but in the 17th,18th and 19th Centuries the British used the story of Noah as an excuse for the disgusting slave trade!!!!

According to the Bible the story goes further with regards to Nuh(as) I dont even want to say as it is not nice. Anyway I checked it out with a scholar(Dr Khalid Khan) who advised there is no such thing in Islam, alhamdulillah. I felt good that what I had felt all along was supported by Islam.

I was in complete disbelief when my history lecturer conducted a seminar on this topic!