Prove it, Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassallam never went to greece, and by the way the it's not just the human embryonic development I am talking about. There are many others I will soon post.
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Prove it, Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassallam never went to greece, and by the way the it's not just the human embryonic development I am talking about. There are many others I will soon post.
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Please share with and enlighten us (with evidence) how prophet Muhammad SAW copied from the Greek.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt (ie. I am not accusing you of just parroting all those orientalists/enemies of Islam who spread so much lies without clearly understanding the matter), and I presume you are very familiar with the sirah of prophet Muhammad SAW.
A) The Quran on Human Embryonic Development:
In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)...
1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two2 as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.3
Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)
The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.
The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.”6 (see figures 5 and 6).
have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad
). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.7
Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore8 is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.
In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”9 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here
).
Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”10
During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad
said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s
companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”
In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:
Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two2 as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.3
Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)
Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)
The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage4 (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week.5 Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.
Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)
So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage. The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.”6 (see figures 5 and 6).
Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan.)
Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed.
(Click on the image to enlarge it.)
How could Muhammad
Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed.
(Click on the image to enlarge it.)
Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore8 is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.
In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”9 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here
). Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”10
During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad
Keith L. Moore
Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).
Investigations in to the 'alaqa or leech-like stage.
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."
"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]
At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]
Professor Moore also stated that:
"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.
"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."
E. Marshall Johnson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.
"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."
"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...
I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..."
T.V.N. Persaud
Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Author and editor of over 20 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. Co-author of The Developing Human (5th Edition, with Keith L. Moore). He received the J.C.B. Grant Award in 1991. Professor Peraud presented several research papers.
"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn't read, didn't know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate...
We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature...
I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements."
Joe Leigh Simpson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
He is the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Like many others, Professor Simpson was taken by surprise when he discovered that the Qur'an and Hadith contain verses related to his specialised field of study. When he met with Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A.Zindani, he insisted on verifying the text presented to him from the Qur'an and Hadith.
"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."
Gerald C. Goeringer
Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A.Zindani met with Professor Goeringer and asked him whether in the history of embryology was there any mention of the different stages of embryonic development, or whether there existed any embryological texts at the time of the Prophet. Sheikh Zindani also asked his opinion regarding the terms the Qur'an uses to describe the different phases of fetal development. After several long discussions, he presented a study at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference:
"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."
Alfred Kroner
Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.
"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."
"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...
If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."
Yushidi Kusan
Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.
Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani presented a number of Qur'anic verses describing the beginnings of the universe and of the heavens, and the relationship of the earth to the heavens. He expressed his astonishment, saying that the Qur'an describes the universe as seen from the highest observation point, everything is distinct and clear.
"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."
Professor Armstrong
Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA.
Prof. Armstrong was asked a number of questions about Qur'anic verses dealing with his field of specialisation. He was eventually asked, "You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and satellites developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. So what is your opinion?""That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed.
Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."
William Hay
Professor of Oceanogprahy, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
Professor Hay is one of the best known marine scientist in the USA. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and asked him many questions about the marine surface, the divider between upper and lower sea, and about the ocean floor and marine geology.
"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."
And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being."
Durja Rao
Professor of Marine Geology teaching at King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Sheikh Zindani presented to Prof. Rao many verses dealing with his area of specialisation, and asked: "What do you think of the existence of the scientific information in the Qur'an? How could Prophet Muhammad have known about these facts fourteen centuries ago?"
"It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but to describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So this is definitely not simple human knowledge. A normal human being cannot explain this phenomenon in that much detail. So, I thought the information must have come from a supernatural source."
Professor Siaveda
Professor of Marine Geology, Japan.
Sheikh Zindani asked him a number of questions in his area of specialisation, and then informed him of the Qur'anic verses and Hadith which mention the same phenomena he spoke of. One of the questions was concerning mountains. Sheikh Zindani asked him about the shape of mountains; and whether they were firmly rooted in the earth. "What is your opinion of what you have seen in the Qur'an and the Sunnah with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?"
"I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree."
Tejatat Tejasen
Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Professor Tejasen studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology. He spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, discussing this phenomenon in the Qur'an and Hadith. During the 8th Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he stood up and said:
"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.
Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.
I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...
The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."
Dr. Maurice Bucaille
Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge.
He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.
His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 1988), "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989)
After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that :
"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."
"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?
How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"
Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).
Investigations in to the 'alaqa or leech-like stage.
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."
"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]
At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]
Professor Moore also stated that:
"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.
"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."
E. Marshall Johnson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.
"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."
"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...
I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..."
T.V.N. Persaud
Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Author and editor of over 20 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. Co-author of The Developing Human (5th Edition, with Keith L. Moore). He received the J.C.B. Grant Award in 1991. Professor Peraud presented several research papers.
"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn't read, didn't know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate...
We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature...
I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements."
Joe Leigh Simpson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
He is the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Like many others, Professor Simpson was taken by surprise when he discovered that the Qur'an and Hadith contain verses related to his specialised field of study. When he met with Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A.Zindani, he insisted on verifying the text presented to him from the Qur'an and Hadith.
"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."
Gerald C. Goeringer
Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A.Zindani met with Professor Goeringer and asked him whether in the history of embryology was there any mention of the different stages of embryonic development, or whether there existed any embryological texts at the time of the Prophet. Sheikh Zindani also asked his opinion regarding the terms the Qur'an uses to describe the different phases of fetal development. After several long discussions, he presented a study at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference:
"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."
Alfred Kroner
Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.
"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."
"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...
If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."
Yushidi Kusan
Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.
Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani presented a number of Qur'anic verses describing the beginnings of the universe and of the heavens, and the relationship of the earth to the heavens. He expressed his astonishment, saying that the Qur'an describes the universe as seen from the highest observation point, everything is distinct and clear.
"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."
Professor Armstrong
Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA.
Prof. Armstrong was asked a number of questions about Qur'anic verses dealing with his field of specialisation. He was eventually asked, "You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and satellites developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. So what is your opinion?""That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed.
Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."
William Hay
Professor of Oceanogprahy, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
Professor Hay is one of the best known marine scientist in the USA. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and asked him many questions about the marine surface, the divider between upper and lower sea, and about the ocean floor and marine geology.
"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."
And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being."
Durja Rao
Professor of Marine Geology teaching at King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Sheikh Zindani presented to Prof. Rao many verses dealing with his area of specialisation, and asked: "What do you think of the existence of the scientific information in the Qur'an? How could Prophet Muhammad have known about these facts fourteen centuries ago?"
"It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but to describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So this is definitely not simple human knowledge. A normal human being cannot explain this phenomenon in that much detail. So, I thought the information must have come from a supernatural source."
Professor Siaveda
Professor of Marine Geology, Japan.
Sheikh Zindani asked him a number of questions in his area of specialisation, and then informed him of the Qur'anic verses and Hadith which mention the same phenomena he spoke of. One of the questions was concerning mountains. Sheikh Zindani asked him about the shape of mountains; and whether they were firmly rooted in the earth. "What is your opinion of what you have seen in the Qur'an and the Sunnah with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?"
"I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree."
Tejatat Tejasen
Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Professor Tejasen studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology. He spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, discussing this phenomenon in the Qur'an and Hadith. During the 8th Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he stood up and said:
"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.
Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.
I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...
The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."
Dr. Maurice Bucaille
Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge.
He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.
His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 1988), "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989)
After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that :
"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."
"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?
How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"
BlackMamba
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Oh come on now, are you seriously using that comeback? That logic is so flawed for the simple fact that the Greeks got a lot of stuff horribly wrong also. Like they thought the atom was the smallest unit of matter. However Allah says in the Quran " And you are not (engaged) in any affair, nor do you recite concerning it any portion of the Quran, nor do you do any work but We are witnesses over you when you enter into it, and there does not lie concealed from your Lord the weight of an atom in the earth or in the heaven, nor any thing less than that nor greater, but it is in a clear book." (10:61) So it is apparent from this ayah that the Quran went against what the Greeks thought. So if you think Muhammad (saw) was the author of this book or that he was majnoon, how did he know to take only the correct facts from the Greeks? Did he just randomly pick facts and get amazingly lucky? That seems unreasonable to me. This is just one example, and their are several examples of where the Quran says correct things about a certain area in science whereas the Greeks said incorrect things
Gabriel Ibn Yus
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Ohoo, I think you do not understand just how much it has to do with this thread.
You think that this thread is just about some theoretical question - because you are
a theoretical minded person which cares only about very flat questions.
However let me translate for you what has happened here. Humanity has recieved
the oppurtionity to develop a simple system, supposedly just by themselves. A closed
system that would be completely under you care i.e computers.
No evolution. No pre-historic insects. No excuses. Nobody to blame. Yet - what do you
know - it still has viruses. Don't you learn from it a lesson in medicine science?
Look - computers depend 100% on people - no outer influence - yet it still has disease.
And you still want me to learn with you something? First manage to be able to come up
with a system that dosen't imitiate your sickness and then will talk.
You can't even heal what you by yourself create - you want me to trust you to heal what
you haven't? Rediculous.
It teaches you where human disease comes from - not from germs - not from prehistoric
life forms that where here before or us - or whatever. These are just symptoms of the disease
not the cause - that's what people do not get.
The cause - just like the answer you gave - just like in the case of computers - is HUMAN WICKEDNESS.
Interestingly enough - religion is all about how to deal with this. In some ways you can see religion as the
science of the relationship between human reightousness and wickedness. Yet you do not accept, not just
the existence of Allah bless be him, but also the existence of these two concepts. Your laws are empty shells.
Yet just the fact that you do not accept something does not mean that it does not exist. And it does not
mean that it does not hurt you.
In case you do not understand - I believe in Allah which means that I believe that he governs EVERYTHING in
the world. So in from my point of view - you secular people are the conspiracy actually.
Well, you answer yourself. Taking into account human nature and the fact that human beings are not SUPERMAN neither you
nor me nor anybody else and the way you think is the way anybody else thinks - I would take it as a safe bet. Unless you want
to be a slave and believe in superhuman scientists if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
naidamar,
No, I do not get the difference. If you're absolutely sure in a belief, then you believe it to be absolutely true. You are therefore claiming to know some absolute truth. Perhaps you're using belief in a slightly different context to how I use it. Please can you explain how you perceive the difference between absolute (100%) belief and absolute truth - it appears to me that the first implies knowledge of the second.
Do you count these as evidence for God? If so, could you expand on the reasoning, perhaps putting them into a syllogistic, deductive
No, I do not get the difference. If you're absolutely sure in a belief, then you believe it to be absolutely true. You are therefore claiming to know some absolute truth. Perhaps you're using belief in a slightly different context to how I use it. Please can you explain how you perceive the difference between absolute (100%) belief and absolute truth - it appears to me that the first implies knowledge of the second.
Do you count these as evidence for God? If so, could you expand on the reasoning, perhaps putting them into a syllogistic, deductive
Gabriel Ibn Yus,
Regarding computers and an example of a piece of technology from Quantum Theory: the semiconductor transistor. This is the basis of all microchips including the RAM memory and processor inside the computer you're using. The fabrication techniques of differential layering of semiconductor devices was directly developed from an appreciation of the energy-level structure of the electrons in atoms, based on a model of the atom derived from Quantum Theory. Quantum Theory was absolutely vital in the conception and development of computers, let alone the entirety of modern electronics.
And what would that difference be then? As far as scientific Theories and the models associated with them go, they are effectively synonymous. A Theory is an explanation - a model is used as a conceptual tool to aid in that explanation.
The fact that you, personally, have not gained 'any real insight' is obviously inconsequential if the experiments work. As working experiments have been produced from Quantum Theory then at least someone has gained some real insight. Your own lack of understanding of the subject and its technological products does not mean it isn't accurate or useful.
I don't really see the relevance of this question. Regardless, have you completely missed the many groups working on hydrogen-storage as a means of replacing gasoline?
"History" by Thucydides describes a plague in Periklean Athens during the Peloponnesian War.
"Oedipos Tyrannos" by Sophocles.
"De Rerum Natura" by Lucretius.
"On Regimen in Acute Diseases" by Hippocrates.
"De Materia Medica" by Pedanius Dioscorides.
"Gynaecology" by Soranus.
If you honestly think it's not easy to find references to Romans being aware of diseases then you obviously don't know the reasons why they were so keen on having efficient sewage systems and bath houses.
Plus, of course, there's a rather great tradition of medicine in ancient Egyptian and Chinese societies. Your bizarre idea that 'germs appeared together with science' is utterly wrong.
Again, I don't see the relevance to the subject. Humans create computer viruses. Only humans write software.
I see from your response to Titus that you are, once again, equivocating between physical disease and computer viruses. They are not the same, although they may have some similar properties. Computers do not have 'disease' - the term 'virus' in the context of information technology is rather different from the term 'virus' used in medicine. You do understand that the same word, used in different contexts, can have different meanings, right?
No, the explanation I have given for a scientific Theory is not the same as the colloquial use for speculation. The scientific term that is much closer to speculation is 'hypothesis'. As I have demonstrated above, the results of Quantum Theory are not wrong as evidenced by that computer you're using.
Precisely, if there is new input from new observations about the Universe then the scientific Laws require changing. The fact that they are changed demonstrates that they are not absolute. Once they are in a form that agrees with all the present observations then the Law is kept until further new observations arise that require a further revision.
This was exactly the point that I raised previously in this thread. Did you not understand my earlier posts?
You have done nothing to demonstrate that the laws you claim are from a creator came from a creator or are perfect (and therefore absolute). The whole point of this thread is for you to provide some evidence for these kind of bald assertions. Remember, as you so clearly pointed out, you are human and so cannot know all of reality. How then can you verify the perfection of a law that some other human has told you about?
Hmm, this is all equivocation again. You appear to be using the term 'law' in three different ways: 1. Scientific Law, 2. Judicial law, 3. Absolute truth. I have only been discussing scientific Laws so far, which are attempts to get closer to the absolute truth of how reality operates. Your description of 'divine law' appears to be synonymous with nature, which is what science is attempting to understand. If you continuously equivocate between all these different definitions then it's going to be very difficult to have a constructive discussion.
Regarding computers and an example of a piece of technology from Quantum Theory: the semiconductor transistor. This is the basis of all microchips including the RAM memory and processor inside the computer you're using. The fabrication techniques of differential layering of semiconductor devices was directly developed from an appreciation of the energy-level structure of the electrons in atoms, based on a model of the atom derived from Quantum Theory. Quantum Theory was absolutely vital in the conception and development of computers, let alone the entirety of modern electronics.
And what would that difference be then? As far as scientific Theories and the models associated with them go, they are effectively synonymous. A Theory is an explanation - a model is used as a conceptual tool to aid in that explanation.
The fact that you, personally, have not gained 'any real insight' is obviously inconsequential if the experiments work. As working experiments have been produced from Quantum Theory then at least someone has gained some real insight. Your own lack of understanding of the subject and its technological products does not mean it isn't accurate or useful.
I don't really see the relevance of this question. Regardless, have you completely missed the many groups working on hydrogen-storage as a means of replacing gasoline?
"History" by Thucydides describes a plague in Periklean Athens during the Peloponnesian War.
"Oedipos Tyrannos" by Sophocles.
"De Rerum Natura" by Lucretius.
"On Regimen in Acute Diseases" by Hippocrates.
"De Materia Medica" by Pedanius Dioscorides.
"Gynaecology" by Soranus.
If you honestly think it's not easy to find references to Romans being aware of diseases then you obviously don't know the reasons why they were so keen on having efficient sewage systems and bath houses.
Plus, of course, there's a rather great tradition of medicine in ancient Egyptian and Chinese societies. Your bizarre idea that 'germs appeared together with science' is utterly wrong.
Again, I don't see the relevance to the subject. Humans create computer viruses. Only humans write software.
I see from your response to Titus that you are, once again, equivocating between physical disease and computer viruses. They are not the same, although they may have some similar properties. Computers do not have 'disease' - the term 'virus' in the context of information technology is rather different from the term 'virus' used in medicine. You do understand that the same word, used in different contexts, can have different meanings, right?
No, the explanation I have given for a scientific Theory is not the same as the colloquial use for speculation. The scientific term that is much closer to speculation is 'hypothesis'. As I have demonstrated above, the results of Quantum Theory are not wrong as evidenced by that computer you're using.
Precisely, if there is new input from new observations about the Universe then the scientific Laws require changing. The fact that they are changed demonstrates that they are not absolute. Once they are in a form that agrees with all the present observations then the Law is kept until further new observations arise that require a further revision.
This was exactly the point that I raised previously in this thread. Did you not understand my earlier posts?
You have done nothing to demonstrate that the laws you claim are from a creator came from a creator or are perfect (and therefore absolute). The whole point of this thread is for you to provide some evidence for these kind of bald assertions. Remember, as you so clearly pointed out, you are human and so cannot know all of reality. How then can you verify the perfection of a law that some other human has told you about?
Hmm, this is all equivocation again. You appear to be using the term 'law' in three different ways: 1. Scientific Law, 2. Judicial law, 3. Absolute truth. I have only been discussing scientific Laws so far, which are attempts to get closer to the absolute truth of how reality operates. Your description of 'divine law' appears to be synonymous with nature, which is what science is attempting to understand. If you continuously equivocate between all these different definitions then it's going to be very difficult to have a constructive discussion.
An33za,
Ok, I've split my posts - hope it's easier to spot this time!
No, a scientific Law and a scientific Theory are two different things. A Law just describes how to predict how something will happen in a certain situation. A Theory gives you an explanation as to why the Law operates in the way it does. Theories are thus of much greater importance in science.
But all you're doing here is making an observation about a single object. These are just empirical facts. A Theory is a generic, universal explanation for objects or situations of a specific type. For example, the Theory of Evolution may have been generated as an explanation as to why we observe such diversity of species, but it would be universally applicable to any replicator that has the capacity to vary from generation to generation. Theories are built upon the empirical facts that we collect in our observations and investigations of the Universe, but because of this there is always the possibility that we might discover a new fact that contradicts the current Theory we have generated for that situation. Facts, such as the observed shape of the Earth can be taken on a practical level as being absolutely true (or at least true beyond reasonable doubt), but Theories should always be considered tentative to avoid falling into the trap of thinking that we've discovered every fact that is relevant to them.
By the way, you should tell your physics teacher that the shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid due to its rotation flattening it at the poles while expanding it at the equator. S/he should be well impressed!
I don't think it's that off-topic. The whole point of this discussion is to make clear what we mean when we ask someone to 'prove' something and whether the things we know are absolutely true or not. That's a fairly important first step to take before addressing actual proofs/evidence for the existence of the supernatural.
Ok, I've split my posts - hope it's easier to spot this time!
No, a scientific Law and a scientific Theory are two different things. A Law just describes how to predict how something will happen in a certain situation. A Theory gives you an explanation as to why the Law operates in the way it does. Theories are thus of much greater importance in science.
But all you're doing here is making an observation about a single object. These are just empirical facts. A Theory is a generic, universal explanation for objects or situations of a specific type. For example, the Theory of Evolution may have been generated as an explanation as to why we observe such diversity of species, but it would be universally applicable to any replicator that has the capacity to vary from generation to generation. Theories are built upon the empirical facts that we collect in our observations and investigations of the Universe, but because of this there is always the possibility that we might discover a new fact that contradicts the current Theory we have generated for that situation. Facts, such as the observed shape of the Earth can be taken on a practical level as being absolutely true (or at least true beyond reasonable doubt), but Theories should always be considered tentative to avoid falling into the trap of thinking that we've discovered every fact that is relevant to them.
By the way, you should tell your physics teacher that the shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid due to its rotation flattening it at the poles while expanding it at the equator. S/he should be well impressed!
I don't think it's that off-topic. The whole point of this discussion is to make clear what we mean when we ask someone to 'prove' something and whether the things we know are absolutely true or not. That's a fairly important first step to take before addressing actual proofs/evidence for the existence of the supernatural.
Gabriel Ibn Yus
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All I could extract from your long menifsto is that you do not know the fact that you are HUMAN.
You can hide this fact away from your eyes as much as you want but it won't change it - for good or bad you are JUST HUMAN.
I wan't to drive this point in.
YOU AND NEITHER ANY OF US IN THIS FORUM WHERE INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF ANY OF THESE FANCY
THEORIES YOU ALL QUOTE HERE. YOU DID NOT DEVELOP QUANTUM THOERY NOR RELATIVITY THEORY NOR EVOLUTON
THEORY - ARE YOU MOZART? ARE YOU VAN-GOCH? SO WHAT ARE YOU SO PROUD OF?
ALL THESE STORIES JUST GIVES US EXCUSE TO BE NASTY WICKED MAGALOMANIC PEOPLE IN OUR PRIVATE LIVES.
AND TO TREAT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE WE ARE BETTER.
You speak of it as if you are the one how developed it. If you where a scientist I would speak to you like a scientist.
But you are not. Einstein is dead, Schrodinger is dead all these dudes are DEAD - so you can't even talk to them.
But if you want to speak to the "new" ones you would figure out that they do not know anything and are just DUST
nothing organaized - just a bunch of confused human beings with no direction who at best learnt how to read some book or a wikipedia site without ever THINKING about it. And I TRIED to talk to them - leads to nothing.
You will find that there are only to answers you can get from these knowledgable people:
1. It has been "verified" in an expirement. (Did you do the expirement yourself? No. Can you do it? No, I don't
have the money to do it. So its simply not more than a superstition - sorry)
2. I am not an expert on the subject. (Ok, so why are you talking to me - take me to your leader plese. But guess
what - there is no "leader" - there is no Mr. Einstein to talk to. Mediocre dust)
Ok. Lasers - that was 70 YEARS AGO AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THAT ARE DEAD - Show me something
that LIVING PEOPLE are doing which is worth all this redicolus CARNIVAL and I would say that its ok. SHOW ME ONE
THING PLEASE - String theory? IT IS GARBAGE - It isn't even physcis its just MATH IN DISGUISE.
Do you know who much money is poured on science? Not lasers - useless things that NOBODY needs. These people go all over the world.
Get a FREE plane ticket and hotel at least three times a year for all sorts of convention - without EVER needing to JUSTIFY THE USE of what
they are doing BECAUSE 70 YEARS AGO EINSTEIN CAME UP WITH SOME FOOLISH THEORY THAT LEADS TO AN ATOMIC BOMB. Fantastic. I promise you - give all this money to feed the poor and needy and many more people would be MUCH more happy. You know what give all these money to make a BETTER EDUCATION SYSTEM that would teach things to KIDS and not OLD PEOPLE. Give the kids an education system that would TEACH THEM SOMETHING and not ABUSE THEM with FOOLISH TESTS. So much for our glorious culture. As long as we have LASERS we don't have to care for ANYTHING that has to do with HUMAN BEINGS - Was this empircally proven also by your scientists???
And
REDICULOUS.
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Zafran
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You clearly havent compared the Greek or even Indian writings with the Quran
http://islamicarchives.wordpress.co...ze-the-embryological-details-from-the-greeks/
There are dramatic differences between what the Greeks wrote and what the Quran says.
its not obvious fact at all but a very weak assertion.
peace
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Imam Abu Hanifah and the Atheist
The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the atheist who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an atheist is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messenger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the atheist awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the atheist to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the atheist started laughing and said, ‘Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong; he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I guarantee he will not turn up today.’
The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the atheist had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologies for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.
‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the atheist to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.
I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length; I was astounded at what I saw.
I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not understand what was happening before my eyes.’
The atheist meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’
At this moment, the atheist burst out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgeable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking ridiculous, I swear I do not believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the atheist and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You don’t believe that nails can appear by themselves? You don’t believe sealant can be poured by itself? You don’t believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’
The atheist remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I don’t believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?
The atheist astonished at his reply got up and fled.
Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an atheist approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.’
The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the atheist who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an atheist is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messenger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the atheist awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the atheist to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the atheist started laughing and said, ‘Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong; he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I guarantee he will not turn up today.’
The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the atheist had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologies for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.
‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the atheist to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.
I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length; I was astounded at what I saw.
I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not understand what was happening before my eyes.’
The atheist meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’
At this moment, the atheist burst out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgeable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking ridiculous, I swear I do not believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the atheist and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You don’t believe that nails can appear by themselves? You don’t believe sealant can be poured by itself? You don’t believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’
The atheist remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I don’t believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?
The atheist astonished at his reply got up and fled.
Masuma
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Yeah at least you used your senses this time!
LOL! Nice way of turning the whole discussion off the main topic. “Theory is this, law is that,”
clever! Okay so now just to make things more “simple”, I’m going to avoid using terms like “theory and laws”. I still don’t see how you disproved this paragraph.
Exactly! Now we are drawing near the point! These (should we call it facts?) are absolutely true now (or at least true beyond reasonable doubt). Same way is the fact that light travels in straight line. Some things in the world can 100% be proven to be true!
Same way it goes for the “Existence of God”. We 100% know that God exists. No one, yes NO ONE has ever been able to disprove God’s existence.
Now what you atheists do is that you only want scientific proofs for the existence of God (even knowing how imperfect science is!) Even still, we Muslims bring you scientific proofs for the Existence of God, but then you people turn to your second plan of belying or “explaining” the scientific miracles of the Quran. You are even provided with logical proofs of His existence but as you people have already assumed that there is no God, so you just simply stick to it. For you people, nothing would ever be a sufficient proof.
Oh come on! This is just such an ordinary piece of knowledge for him. He is not going to be “impressed” by it. So lose your hope, man. It might be “impressive” for you but my teacher, with the mercy of Allah, knows far more than this.
Leave aside giving proofs for the existence of “supernatural”, you people weren’t even able to give proofs/evidences of something natural! We asked you to prove your existence to us, but you failed and so doggedly avoided even talking about it. Clever bunch of lots you people are.
And just because we are having this discussion with people like YOU, it would really be useless in the end.
And Allah knows best!
Masuma
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Ahan? Okay so you said it and it became a joke! LOL! chill man...
Oh how nice of you!
But again your talking insane! I say 2 + 2 = 4, and you don't recommend me telling those people who say 2+2=5, are wrong???? Strange guy you are!
Masuma
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Proof for the existence of God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNJzC7NO98
Was the Quran copied from Greeks?
(well already this has been refuted but I'm just adding a few more points)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlE7x3nuKAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNJzC7NO98
Was the Quran copied from Greeks?
(well already this has been refuted but I'm just adding a few more points)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlE7x3nuKAI
Trumble
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Please don't bother. Just do a forum search instead.
I'm not claiming the Prophet ever went to Greece; at that time classical Greece and the Western Roman Empire were no more, and the knowledge far more likely to be found in Byzantium, Alexandria or Baghdad anyway. The point is that, far from being otherwise unknown to science until recently, as is constantly claimed, this 'embryology' had been around for centuries.
Yes I have, in the case of the former, anyway. The only dramatic differences are in leeway of 'interpretation'. Galen got some stuff right and some stuff wrong. As does the Qur'an. The latter is conveniently ignored because people would rather ignore it. As I said, we've done all this before and there really is no point in repeating ourselves.
Regarding attempting to prove the existence or non-existence of God, which I have already said, with others, is a completely futile exercise , 'Qur'anic science' is a complete red herring.
I'm not remotely interested in 'scientific proofs' for the existence of God, as there are none. If there were any, we would not even be having this discussion. And as for 'sufficient proof', if any theist could come up with a response to 'the Problem of Evil' that was anything other than totally desperate, that would be a start. But they can't.. and to me that alone is convincing evidence (not 'proof') that man created God and not vice versa. If it makes you feel better there are absolutely no logical or scientific 'proofs' for the 'truth' of my own religion either; but I've never met a Buddhist to whom that mattered in the slightest.
As to 'logical proofs'. There are none. Some of the greatest thinkers in history have been trying for over two thousand years now AND THERE ARE NONE. Likewise, there are no 'logical proofs' for the non-existence of God, either. There are arguments both ways, that is all.
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