Prove god or Allah to an Atheist.

Patrick said:
If it is a 1 and 800 million i would say more like 1 and the number for infinite chance for us to be here. That using the combination of not only the earth to have in its conditions but other things. 1 dominate species had to be completely exterminated for us to even have a chance. Even with 1 1000th the amount of animal life that existed at the time of other life living here it would have been to large to even give us an opportunity at life at all. We would have died. When the earth changed all animals were made certain sizes let's say that's evolution. Where mammals where the largest life forms that had a chance to continue foward. If you know none of the animals that proceded at that size were meat eaters. Elephants and whales being the largest land mammal and water living things. Giving us a chance greater where as if it would have been an amphibian geeko or aligator not put into a smaller proportion we would have had serious problems. Yet they were made to the smallest they could have been. If even an ant without mammal reasoning which allways comes with more compasion or understanding would have been at a size of a hippo than once again human life has no chance. These could have all been adaption if you believe so or it could have been the world attempting to go to a higher consciousness that it was originally born from trying to reach.
Now these are some of the conditions if you believe in darwin or evolution that had to take place for human existance. Of coarse on earth there must have been much more. Now the reason I stated the chances of us being here are 1 in infinity is not just the reasoning of the earth's creation but the odds of its placement then of coarse the real reason for the number the fact that the universe was even shaped to begin with. The odds of a big bang event even occurring from absolutely nothing have to be improbable as far as putting a number on an event like that. So I believe it's not 1 in 800 million or billion were here but 1 and a number too large for any of us to actually calculate. I just call the number infinate. The meaning of making man in his image I don't know. Maybe it was the image in the way he saw creation? Which as his creation the way he saw life to take shape if there was to be something of life. I wasn't referring to the believers thinking the big bang was Allah I was referring to the fact no theory can be made without 1 creator. Muslims don't believe he was the big bang scientists believe there single creator was. I was merely referring to the point they can not escape the same belief which is similar to the one creator Muslims believe in. Yes everything has a beginning and an end and no not everyone knew of this. It did take much understanding to realize the sun would die the earth would die and the stars as well. This wasn't something every ancient tribe was understanding just because humans or animals died in there time. The books eventually put it into a simpler context of this truth of all time ending and Allah being the last thing left. As far as this goes I can give you no discussion no one of this earth has seen forever. And this is where faith is implimented. As far as us seeing things as a purpose I think if you be lived in nothing whatever sparked nothing had something in shape. If it was all accidental orbits might have not taken shape it might have been only chaos. With no means of supporting any form of life. If it didn't have a meaning maybe even stars who are alive wouldn't have stuck around too long. It obviously had an intention that this life force should sustain itself in some manner before our version of life should arrive. Evolution is not what you believe it is. People like the Buddha Essa Muhammad had more access to knowledge than I believe we do. I don't see 20000 Buddha's walking the earth. I see us making things trying to understand like Allah does creating machines to carry out our tasks as he did angels. I can not prove to you why you should believe in Allah there were people that Allah showed signs to that did not believe before he decided to seal the prophets. It's too hard with just theories to prove Allah. As we've shown it's much much easier to prove everything else we choose to believe.
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I don't really understand this grammar, can you rephrase this? Or at least try putting it into paragraphs, Because it's 1) hard to read 2) it looks as if it's grammatically unsound. Example : "Where mammals where the largest life forms that had a chance to continue foward. If you know none of the animals that proceded at that size were meat eaters." That is incoherent and I find it hard to grasp to what he is trying to say (this is just one out of many lines that seemed incoherent.)
 
Patrick said:
You also I believe are almost giving our knowledge that we discover a little too much credit. As advanced a computers and simulated machines are getting you have to ask how long would it take to make a world in which things unknowingly could live in it be alive to themselves and those around them but never be able to find out what's outside of it. It's kind of science fictional but it could be possible. I think it is at least. I just dont understand how real we are making things in this way but we couldn't understand that maybe just possibly something created this process first? Something intelligent possibly? I don't see why we should believe we would be so intelligent to make things like this possible but for something outside of our knowledge to do this first? I guess I believe in intelligent life outside of us and if we possibly could even get close to this I don't see why a consciousness higher than all of us couldn't have completed the task a little bigger than we could.
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Look okay, the only reason we think there is a entity that made us all is because we are cognitive, we expect something similar to have made all of this, we just put the blame on something with a higher knowledge or intelligence, the evidence is overwhelming that without us in the universe nothing would change, the earth is barely a quarter of a spec of dust in this universe, we are meaningless to the rest of this universe, the conclusion of this is; God is only a theory, based on no evidence, made by some people in the middle-east around 2000 years ago, and in turn is a logical fallacy.
The reason why I think there is no way there is a god, the only reason we think there is a creator in the first place is because someone decided to write a book, and in this book it told people there was a creator of the universe, people actually took it seriously and started to believe it.

It's too easy to lie and say things in a book that are NOT true. It doesn't take a genius to write a book like the Bible or Qur'an or any other holy book.

Like for instance, the writer of the book of Scientology, you know the Scientologists holy book, he was a known fiction writer.
His stories are no more crazy then those of the Bible or other holy books.
They just have a more sci-fi twist.

Also, if he is this higher all knowing intelligence that made us all, then why can't we have just been born with the knowledge, he knows what we'll do since he's all knowing, so why did he put us here.
People say hes here to test us, well guess what, he knows what's going to happen, so why does he need to test us?

Also, why does he care about a tiny race in the middle of a huge universe. Why does he care what we eat, why does he care about what we think or do, why does he even need us to know hes there. Why does he care about us at all, he's god he shouldn't need to care about anyone, he created the universe and gave us a chance to live that should be all he needs to do. Also if he cares about us, why does he send people to hell? So since I may have done something bad once, I'm going to hell, also if he did care about us, why would he sentence us to hell to be tortured for all of eternity, to punish us? To correct us? To fix us? In that case why even be born just to be sentenced to eternal torture.
 
Ok bro after what you said to sister herb. As I see you've come in here for egotistical purposes I would now like you to leave. Gaining pleasure from trying to prove superiority over good people as you have just done is in our belief haram. Your attitude towards this woman's last response has now proven this too me. So go to your school learn what they tell you and believe what you choose. Saying on a boring day is quite disrespectful to these people you have baited into an argument to brush them off as saying challenging us is a hobby. My friend I really really want you to be an atheist and believe in superiority due to right because I want you to understand something quite clear that a believer would object but a non believer must. You will never be superior to me physically from my genetics to my intelligence. I was made as tough in both ways. Now for this disrespect by taking advantage of these kind hearted people I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain. It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born stronger smarter and given more wealth than you. That is your meaning in life. To be inferior. I would never in my life say this to a believer because I know we are equals. But remember this you will allways have 2 God's in this world atheist the people put in power of you who tell you how to eat where your allowed to work and control every aspect your life has taken shape of since you were a child and had to eat. The last God is death. He will allways tell you when and how you will leave. I'm sorry to the people on this page I mean no disrespect but I've had a very very difficult day. To you I suggest you find other hobbies than taking advantage of people's beliefs and hopes. You my friend have shown a weak humanistic quality that thrives off of manipulation of good people maybe you don't understand that yet but Allah will show it in time.
 

"Everything needs a creator." The fact is, the universe very well could have been created by nothing. Just look at the url I put up on a previous comment earlier.
 
I'm typing on a phone where and were are hard to alter. Grammer is of no matter. You know what I was getting at. I don't care to debate with you any longer your not worth it. Grammer and corrective sentences as well as the ordering as you see them from the logic you have understood are never more important than the meaning. Which is a problem logic only people like you allways have especially in the importance of greater things.
 
Education is important too. Actually I am studing just same like you do. Which one is more important - studing for life or studing for eternity is of course anyones personal choise.

Any ways, I wish you many boring weekends then. :D
 
Patrick said:
Ok bro after what you said to sister herb. As I see you've come in here for egotistical purposes I would now like you to leave. Gaining pleasure from trying to prove superiority over good people as you have just done is in our belief haram. clear that a believer would object but a non believer must. You will never be superior to me physically from Your attitude towards this woman's last response has now proven this too me. So go to your school learn what they tell you and believe what you choose. Saying on a boring day is quite disrespectful to these people you have baited into an argument to brush them off as saying challenging us is a hobby. My friend I really really want you to be an atheist and believe in superiority due to right becausee I want you to understand something quitemy genetics to my intelligence. I was made as tough in both ways. Now for this disrespect by taking advantage of these kind hearted people I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain. It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born strongr smarter and given more wealth than you. That is your meaning in life. To be inferior. I would never in my life say this to a believer because I know we are equals. But remember this you will allways have 2 God's in this world atheist the people put in power of you who tell you how to eat where your allowed to work and control every aspect your life has taken shape of since you were a child and had to eat. The last God is death. He will allways tell you when and how you will leave. I'm sorry to the people on this page I mean no disrespect but I've had a very very difficult day. To you I suggest you find other hobbies than taking advantage of people's beliefs and hopes. You my friend have shown a weak humanistic quality that thrives off of manipulation of good people maybe you don't understand that yet but Allah will show it in time.
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Well then, I would just like to say I try to be as non-offensive as possible.

You say I am the one who is attacking you, when it is clear that you are taking an attack upon me. Let me just put some quotes up to prove this point: "Now for this disrespect by taking advantage of these kind hearted people I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain. It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born stronger smarter and given more wealth than you."

You say I am being disrespectful, yet you say

"It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born stronger smarter and given more wealth than you."

" I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain."

You claim I will never reach your level of genetic superiority, yet you have more grammatical errors then most people on this thread.
You make points with no evidence, you say things you don't even know, you don't know my age, gender, size, or intelligence.
You know nothing about me but you make such outrageous claims.
You say I will become nothing, and you say I am disrespectful to you and your "people".
You say "these kind hearted people" I assume you are referring to yourself and others, well this reply refutes that I'm afraid.
If I was one to believe stereotypes, you would be confirming one.

You say that I am taking advantage of these people, yet you continue to write and even post this reply, you admit you have had a bad day, and that you are most likely posting this because of that, are you not taking out your anger or aggression on me? Is that not taking advantage?

If anything, you have brought a unexpected slur and caused me to change how I thought of this website and possibly of this religion fully. I was expecting you all to be accepting of my criticism, as Islam claims to be a religion of tolerance.
 
Auratricles said:
"Everything needs a creator." The fact is, the universe very well could have been created by nothing. Just look at the url I put up on a previous comment earlier.
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Actually, this your comment is against of the basic scientific fact number 1:

"Energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed from emptiness."

Everyone can claims to be an atheist but it doesn´t everytimes mean that every atheist would really understand scientific laws any better than ordinary people in general.

Have a good night to you any ways - its time to sleep now.
 
sister herb said:
Education is important too. Actually I am studing just same like you do. Which one is more important - studing for life or studing for eternity is of course anyones personal choise.

Any ways, I wish you many boring weekends then. :D
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Thank you, also I would like to say I meant boring weekends as in weekends when I have nothing important to do (some unnamed people seems to have taken offence to that misunderstanding so I thought I'd let you know too.)

Also, to an Atheist, who by definition does not believe in god, it's probably going to be just studying for life.
 
Patrick said:
I'm typing on a phone where and were are hard to alter. Grammer is of no matter. You know what I was getting at. I don't care to debate with you any longer your not worth it. Grammer and corrective sentences as well as the ordering as you see them from the logic you have understood are never more important than the meaning. Which is a problem logic only people like you allways have especially in the importance of greater things.
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I honestly did not completely understand what you were getting at Patrick.
I would be happy to reply to you if you rephrase in a more understandable format.
Also grammar and corrective sentencing and the order as you see them is the only way to fully understand the importance of the meaning!
 
Auratricles said:
If anything, you have brought a unexpected slur and caused me to change how I thought of this website and possibly of this religion fully. I was expecting you all to be accepting of my criticism, as Islam claims to be a religion of tolerance.
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Sorry I haven´t time to read all of the post (bed time) but don´t try to generalize the whole religion because of one member in this forum might not be interesting about depating (which might not lead to anywhere). I am not sure if kind of depating is even permissible by rules of the forum.

If you came here to learn more about religion called Islam, then ok you are welcomed. If you had some other reasons, then good night to you and may Allah shows to you the right path.
 
sister herb said:
Actually, this your comment is against of the basic scientific fact number 1:

"Energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed from emptiness."

Everyone can claims to be an atheist but it doesn't everytimes mean that every atheist would really understand scientific laws any better than ordinary people in general.

Have a good night to you any ways - its time to sleep now.
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I would like the source of that quote.
 
hi OP i think you are missing the point of the exercise..

we dont need to prove the existence of god.. in fact god goes out of his way to mention this at least once in the quran.

BUT you could prove it to yourself.

..if you approach something sincerely then you will reach your own conclusions..

it is extremely hard to do and in itself is a proof of god.

because how often do you change who you are?


not sure if it will benefit you at all because proof of god implies judgement day.

i lol'd
 
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Hey buddy I'm sure lebron James could just take one look at me and know nothing about me but know what the deal is as soon as I show up to the same court as him. Age gender who cares call it an animal instinct if that's what you believe. Dude I know people like you. And I did attack you but only because you have a sort of way you go about it. If you were to really say what's on your mind it's more like this. I know I came in here and I'll allways believe what it is that I want. I just pass time seeing how dumb your beliefs are and how stupid I can make people feel when I can prove the points I was taught from so and so. Know I'll be moving along now I had fun just messing with you guys. Now you didn't say it like that but if you could " not put it in a nice way" as you keep saying you would have. You see intelligent sincerity is not allways saying what you feel but rewording it. It's like the grammar you keep pointing out you've been taught a certain way of doing things. These things include your mannerisms habits other things. People are taught many things they pick up along the way. The way you insult people is no different. You intend it to come off polite but when you know people well enough it's sort of this rude I know this this arrogance that you hide by thinking your being nice. So me as someone who picked up on the truth of why you were here did something called speaking my mind. Yes people of Islam are polite as well but one of the worst things we can do is have fun with each others beliefs. Yes I became disrespectful but your dialog went from I'm here to understand to man I don't care this is like a game to me I don't care what your points are. Man Grammer to me means little I know it's improper but it could not be as improper as the intention you had with just entering here. It's like if you went into a mosque just flat out said what was really on your mind you would have got tossed out man. Look believe what you want no one but yourself is going to change your mind. But to these people this is there way of life not a race to them a nation but the reason they live there lives. It's petty to want to pick apart the values they have lived. A debate is good nothing wrong buts it's just the way you started to shrug off everyone and implied what you did where it went from debate to I don't care about this at all I'm just messing with you. That's not good. And if your trying to go the no offence way either hang out with the like company who says no offence but black people don't have jobs. Like ya ok that's kind of offensive. Or just don't get into the conversation at all.
 
Oh and please I made you think differently about the religion. Look some people are more outspoken than others I'm not perfect in any regards or as well tempered as the people that were trying to help you. There's allways different types of people nobody who goes to your class is the same maybe one of them has something about the way they look you don't like. You don't go I think everyone taking microbiology looks bad. It's just how people are. Me I'm defensive bro. I'm not an expert on islam more than most but I was raised in a place that's weird. If one of my muslim friends had problems I had problems simple and plain if some one disrespected one of my friends muslim sisters I had problems. Not debating either. I know that's a turn off and again I'm sorry to the people on here that's how I am. But sometimes man I just don't care it's a problem I deal with but it's something I deal with. I might not allways say things correctly and I'm sorry if one argument completely turned you off to all muslims because that's haram on me then bad things not good. But if you had no interest in learning at all I did nothing wrong than what I'm supposed to see through what that maneuver was and defend them untill you focus on me. See how it works. Now I said some mean stuff man and if your really a good person I appologize. But in another time honestly I was just doing my job. They would have removed me from the room but eventually I would have been allowed back in.
 
Patrick said:
Hey buddy I'm sure lebron James could just take one look at me and know nothing about me but know what the deal is as soon as I show up to the same court as him. Age gender who cares call it an animal instinct if that's what you believe. Dude I know people like you. And I did attack you but only because you have a sort of way you go about it. If you were to really say what's on your mind it's more like this. I know I came in here and I'll allways believe what it is that I want. I just pass time seeing how dumb your beliefs are and how stupid I can make people feel when I can prove the points I was taught from so and so. Know I'll be moving along now I had fun just messing with you guys. Now you didn't say it like that but if you could " not put it in a nice way" as you keep saying you would have. You see intelligent sincerity is not allways saying what you feel but rewording it. It's like the grammar you keep pointing out you've been taught a certain way of doing things. These things include your mannerisms habits other things. People are taught many things they pick up along the way. The way you insult people is no different. You intend it to come off polite but when you know people well enough it's sort of this rude I know this this arrogance that you hide by thinking your being nice. So me as someone who picked up on the truth of why you were here did something called speaking my mind. Yes people of Islam are polite as well but one of the worst things we can do is have fun with each others beliefs. Yes I became disrespectful but your dialog went from I'm here to understand to man I don't care this is like a game to me I don't care what your points are. Maan Grammer to me means little I know it's improper but it could not be as improper as the intention you hd with just entering here. It's like if you went into a mosque just flat out said what was really on your mind you would have got tossed out man. Look believe what you want no one but yourself is going to change your mind. But started to shrug off everyone and implied what you did where it went from debate to I don't care about this at all I'm just messing with you. That's not good. And if your trying to go the no offence way either hang out with the like company who says no offence but black people don't have jobs. Like ya ok that's kind of offensive. Or just don't get into the conversation at all.
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I in no way wanted to offend you people, I even stated at the bottom of my post that you should expect criticism and for me to refute logical fallacies, or proof that I see necessary to, and so far I have seen nothing but things to refute.to these people this is there way of life not a race to them a nation but the reason they live there lives. It's petty to want to pick apart the values they have lived. A debate is good nothing wrong buts it's just the way you
I am not here to just deny everything, you can see I have been explaining why that does not make sense to me at all and why it is illogical.
If you see Islam as a way of life, that is your decision, just remember ways of life are not immune to criticism nor is anything.
If black people don't have jobs, or the majority of them don't, then it is sound to say that they do not have jobs.
Also just because I am taking the peaceful route by saying I don't mean offence, does not mean I am a racist as I assume is what you are referring to.
Also you put me in the category of someone who makes generalizations, or a racist, yet you say repeatedly "I know people like you." And "I'v dealt with people like you before."
I am also not here to make people feel dumb for the points they make, they chose to make those points, and so they put themselves at risk of refutation.
Also I would like to see some examples of me insulting people?
If I have come off as insulting, do not blame me, blame your own vulnerable ego because the only person I would insult right now.

No one is immune from refutation, I came here to see if anyone could give me proof of God.
You can say that you don't want me to refute your proof, but I clearly state to expect refutation.
 
Patrick said:
Oh and please I made you think differently about the religion. Look some people are more outspoken than others I'm not perfect in any regards or as well tempered as the people that were trying to help you. There's allways different types of people nobody who goes to your class is the same maybe one of them has something about the way they look you don't like. You don't go I think everyone taking microbiology looks bad. It's just how people are. Me I'm defensive bro. I'm not an expert on islam more than most but I was raised in a place that's weird. If one of my muslim friends had problems I had problems simple and plain if some one disrespected one of my friends muslim sisters I had problems. Not debating either. I know that's a turn off and again I'm sorry to the people on here that's how I am. But sometimes man I just don't care it's a problem I deal with but it's something I deal with. I might not allways say things correctly and I'm sorry if one argument completely turned you off to all muslims because that's haram on me then bad things not good. But if you had no interest in learning at all I did nothing wrong than what I'm supposed to see through what that maneuver was and defend them untill you focus on me. See how it works. Now I said some mean stuff man and if your really a good person I appologize. But in another time honestly I was just doing my job. They would have removed me from the room but eventually I would have been allowed back in.
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You didn't change how I felt about Islam. I know and understand you are a individual, you do not make up the entire population. I was just stating earlier that to some people this would be changing how people thought of all Muslims.
 
Auratricles said:
When I said that stuff about the Bible, and "their point of view" I was referencing the Christians, not anyone else. He was born into an Atheist family and remains an Atheist to this day. Also I didn't use the Bible as a point, I was merely correcting Patrick about him saying how if you asked Christians to describe him, they wouldn't have an answer, whereas in reality, in their Bible it says that God made humans in his image.

As to your question about where everything came from, I feel this video may suffice as the answer to your question.
youtube . com /watch?v=wNDGgL73ihY
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Hello Aurotricles,

Mmm, your text is a bit fuzzy to read.

(smile) Anyway, I looked up your video. This is not high quality stuff. For instance, anyone who knows basic chemistry knows that scientists don't believe that electrons orbit around the nucleus, as shown in this video. I dislike such sloppiness in science (I have a solid science background, and the quality of general education in North America is disheartening). This video also didn't address the question of where the initial massive amount of energy came from. It at first said: we'll get to that later. And then when it finally talked about how everything started and what was beforehand, it stated that we don't know and perhaps we'll never know. But then it ended on a upbeat note about humans continuing to search for answers.

(mildly) So I do not feel that this video suffices. (smile) You know, I was an astronomy buff as a child and teen and my astronomy club members were discussing string theory and reading up on books about the big bang well before you were born.

You are most welcome to ask your questions. But you've thrown so many, in such a disjointed way, that it would take me absolutely ages to address them all… and I, too, am a busy person). So please, do a little homework, as sister herb suggests. And then browse through the threads and see if anyone has answered your questions already. And (smile), then it will be a pleasure to discuss what you sincerely would like to know.

May God Bless you.
 
Auratricles said:
Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.
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If you think you are just and believe in justice and fairness then you shouldn't judge something about which you have no knowledge. If you believe that you believe in justice then this beautiful quality of mankind is not self -made, rather it is given by the Great Creator.

You are a student of medicine, do you pass on your anatomy, physiology and biochemistry without any wisdom, and never think about the All-wise Great Creator? If so then it is not justice.

As I said that as a human being you will surely like justice because the Creator has given you this great quality. If you are sitting on the chair of a judge then you will not pass judgment on an accused one until you get proper knowledge about his case. I hope you agree. Then how can you pass your judgment on the Holy Quraan when you didn't open it?

I sincerely advise every just and fair person not to say a single word about the Holy Quraan when he/ she has not read and understood it thoroughly.

Moreover I sincerely advise every unbeliever not to waste time because life is short and the time of death is not known. Death may come suddenly and then the unbeliever is caught in terrible never-ending punishment. One of the unique punishment of the Hereafter to the unbelievers is that they shall be requesting for death but death will not come to them. They shall be requesting, O God send us back to the world we will not disobey you again, but their requests shall be rejected. Then you shall remember our sincere advices and shall regret that why you didn't accept them but in vain.

So first read and understand the Holy Quraan and then pass your comments with justice. and start the Quraan without delay of a single minute because death may overtake you soon and then you will cry for ever. By the way I also must tell you that The Quraan is much more important than your medical books, if you but knew. After understanding the Quraan, medical books will become easier to learn.

May Allah Almighty guide us and you all on the right path and protect us all from the punishment, aameen.
 

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