Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

[anis_z24]

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

 

[suhura]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I guess no one actually dares to defy god's words. Alhamdulillah!

 

[Andaraawus]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

this is a good post, and i am sure that i wont be ansered in a academic fashion by anybody who posts in oppisistion to the Quran , i will keep my eyes on this thread but we must consider that we are NOT talking about the Bible

so that means no replys to this by proclaiming 'the Koran is not the word of God because the Bbile says in acts :rant: '

in this post and i would like to see that the Quran is the only subject here. wasalams

 

[Organized Chaos]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

if it was, then you would think that allah would know a bit more about science.

"Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"---18:86-90

this verse(and others in this story) suggest that the earth is flat and the ends are where the sun sets and there is a cave. in actuality, the earth revolves around the sun and the rotation of the earth gives the illusion of the sun moving.

"Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!"---27:61

the earth orbits the sun. the sun orbits the center of the galaxy. the galaxy is moving relative to the rest of the local group. the local group is moving relative to the other galactic clusters, and so on. therefore, it is not fixed.

"And when the stars fall,"---81:2
the only thing i can think of in cosmology where "the stars fall" would be the "big crunch." as of now, it appears that the universe doesn't have enough mass for there to be a big crunch. even if there was, the earth wouldn't be around to see it. the sun would have died long before then.

depending on how you look at it, you could also see the collision of the milkey way with andromeda as the falling of the stars, but the sun, and therefore the earth, will be long gone before that happens.

"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."---21:33

the sun does not move in a sphere. that was proven long ago. the celestial sphere theory was superceeded. it took a few hundred years and many lives, but it happened.


"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk."---7:80-81

there ARE homosexual animals

 

[Organized Chaos]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

btw, an islamic board is not a good place to challenge someone to challenge the qur'an if you actually want them to try.

 

[Organized Chaos]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

also, who was the first muslim?

"When his Lord said to him, "Submit!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)."
And this was enjoined by Ibrahim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Yaqoob (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! Allah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims - Islamic Monotheism)."--- 2:131-132

this says abraham and his sons were muslims.

"And when Moosa (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You." Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me." So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Moosa (Moses) fell down unconscious. Then when he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.""--- 7:143

this says that moses is the first muslim. but wait, wasn't abraham BEFORE moses???

"And I am commanded (this) in order that I may be the first of those who submit themselves to Allah (in Islam) as Muslims."--- 39:12

this says muhammed was the first!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

if it was, then you would think that allah would know a bit more about science.

All of your claims without exception have been refuted previously.
http://www.islamicboard.com/47842-post3.html

"Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
He said: As to him who is unjust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement:
And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.
Then he followed (another) course.
Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It"---18:86-90

As Muhammad Asad clarifies:

[And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun," it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;" and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing].

Or: "abundance of water" - which, according to many philologists (cf. Taj al= Aras), is one of the meanings of `ayn (primarily denoting a "spring"). As for my rendering of the phrase "he found it (wajadaha) setting...", etc., as "it appeared to him that it was setting", see Razi and Ibn Kathir, both of whom point out that we have here a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the sun's "disappearing into the sea"; and Razi explains this, correctly, by the fact that the earth is spherical. (It is interesting to note that, according to him, this explanation was already advanced in the - now lost - Qur'an-commentary of AN `All al-Jubba i, the famous Mu'tazili scholar who died in 303 H., which corresponds to 915 or 916 of the Christian era.)​

Along the same lines:

The verses narrate part of the story of Zul-Qarnain. Being a great traveller Prophet Zul-Qarnain eventually, at sun set, arrived at a place where there were springs of vast murky waters. He found around it tribes of people, some righteous and some malign. The narration goes on to describe how Zul-Qarnain was given authority to rule over them as a just king. It narrates the version of events as he, Zul-Qarnain saw them – he saw the sun set in a murky water, nothing wrong with that. The second verse narrates that Zul-Qarnain turned another direction and travelled on until he saw the sun rise and it just so happens that he saw it rise on a people who were without shade. Again, a very simple narration, no claim of being scientific fact.

The critics who raise this issue and claim that the God of the Quran does not know the simple scientific that the sun never actually sets are barking up the wrong tree. The above verses in no way make the claim of being scientific fact as God sees it. We don’t see God making the claim that the sun sets into murky waters! Or rises on a certain group of people. We simply see God describing things as witnessed by Zul-Qarnain - "They ask thee concerning Zul-Qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story". The sun sets wherever you see it set. If you are on a beach you will see it set into the ocean. If you are on a hill, you will see it set behind the hill.​

See also:
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/zul-qarnain.html

"Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!"---27:61

As I said before:

Some critics claim that this verse implies that the earth doesn't move, which is truly a laughable claim. The word qaraara refers to the structure of the earth, meaning that the earth is a firm foundation upon which we can travel and construct buildings. As Omar Sarwar notes:

In Surah An-Naml, 27:61, what has been translated as a "fixed abode should be translated as a "stable resting place," as denoted by the Arabic term qarar, in this case for the innumerable inhabitants of the earth. As far as life on earth is concerned, the earth is "fixed" and "stable" enough that life can exist, evolve, flourish, perish, and regenerate on it. The verse goes on to discuss the mountains and the oceans and, therefore, does not seem to warrant a reading from an astronomical perspective at all.​

The "fixed" aspect of the earth is the solid crust of the earth.

"And when the stars fall,"---81:2
the only thing i can think of in cosmology where "the stars fall" would be the "big crunch." as of now, it appears that the universe doesn't have enough mass for there to be a big crunch. even if there was, the earth wouldn't be around to see it. the sun would have died long before then.

depending on how you look at it, you could also see the collision of the milkey way with andromeda as the falling of the stars, but the sun, and therefore the earth, will be long gone before that happens.

Since we know that when we look at 'stars' in the horizon, what we see is actually the light emitted from them long ago. Therefore, there are a number of possible scenarios in which an illusion of 'stars falling' could be created on earth. Secondly, since this verse speaks of a phenomenon which has not yet occured and which we don't know how it will occur, and which most likely occurs due to divine intervention, it is immediately beyond the scope of science because we're talking miracles here.

"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."---21:33

the sun does not move in a sphere.

The word 'sphere' does not appear in the arabic. The word is 'falak' which simply means orbit or course. It is interesting to note that out of all the translations I checked on this verse, only Shakir and Rodwell (a non-muslim) include the word sphere. None of the other translators use it, but of course anti-islamists are only interested in the one that supports their argument. Objectivity is not on their mind.

"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk."---7:80-81

there ARE homosexual animals

I responded to this just last week, saying:

With regard to animals,
1. The only evidence they have brought is what they think are 'homosexual tendencies' temporarily seen in some members of the species
2. Even if we assume this evidence to be correct (which it isn't), this would actually refute their own claim that homosexuality is a trait people are born with and in fact the animals only temporarily show such desires. Consequently, there is no such thing as a 'gay animal' even according to them - just animals who temporarily exhibit such tendencies.
3. Prophet Lut wasn't speaking about animals. 'Alameen (29:28) literally refers human beings and jinn in its restricted sense
4. The phrase is also understood to mean that none surpassed the nation of Lut, or went to the extent that they did in performing such immorality
5. Not only were they homosexuals but they used to publically express their perverted desires

Regards

 

[Andaraawus]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

see what i mean , any oppisition to the Quran is not from an academic stand point

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Organized Chaos,
Let's take this one at a time. Do not simply copy-paste allegations.

also, who was the first muslim?

Do you know what 'Muslim' means? You can use the term in a different sense or in a different context. The linguistic meaning is one who submits to God. So when you ask "who was the first Muslim" you have to clarify what exactly you mean. Are you including all creation or just human beings? Are you speaking about the followers of the Shari'ah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh or just the first human being to submit to God. The word has different connotations.

Also, let me give you a practical example. If a teacher walks into a classroom and asks the students, "Who was the first one here?" in this context they mean to say which of the students was the first to arrive at school today. They are not asking about the construction workers and they are certainly not considering the archaebacteria that dwelt in that location eons ago.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

bro,
Your challenge has remained unanswered for over 1400 years. Don't expect a serious response anytime soon

 

[Organized Chaos]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Since we know that when we look at 'stars' in the horizon, what we see is actually the light emitted from them long ago. Therefore, there are a number of possible scenarios in which an illusion of 'stars falling' could be created on earth. Secondly, since this verse speaks of a phenomenon which has not yet occured and which we don't know how it will occur, and which most likely occurs due to divine intervention, it is immediately beyond the scope of science because we're talking miracles here.

what scenarios?
ah, "God did it" again. that's almost as good as the christians who think they can prove the bible with the bible.

With regard to animals,
1. The only evidence they have brought is what they think are 'homosexual tendencies' temporarily seen in some members of the species

there have been dolphins that are homosexual lifemates until they die

2. Even if we assume this evidence to be correct ([Link only for registered members]), this would actually refute their own claim that homosexuality is a trait people are born with and in fact the animals only temporarily show such desires. Consequently, there is no such thing as a 'gay animal' even according to them - just animals who temporarily exhibit such tendencies.

good thing i never claimed homosexuality was genetic. also, 2 was a red herring.

3. Prophet Lut wasn't speaking about animals. 'Alameen (29:28) literally refers human beings and jinn in its restricted sense

i guess i was confused by it saying "creature"

Organized Chaos,
Let's take this one at a time. Do not simply copy-paste allegations.

i did no such thing.

Are you including all creation or just human beings?

how many non-human animals are muslims?

Are you speaking about the followers of the Shari'ah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh or just the first human being to submit to God. The word has different connotations.

look at the context and you tell me.

Also, let me give you a practical example. If a teacher walks into a classroom and asks the students, "Who was the first one here?" in this context they mean to say which of the students was the first to arrive at school today. They are not asking about the construction workers and they are certainly not considering the archaebacteria that dwelt in that location eons ago.

thanx for the strawman.

 

[Organized Chaos]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

i apollogize about the one talking about the spheres. i got that verse from a muslim. he said my translation was wrong, so i had him give me the right one.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

what scenarios?
ah, "God did it" again. that's almost as good as the christians who think they can prove the bible with the bible.

Actually it's not. The day of judgement is something that hasn't happened yet and obviously involves divine intervention. Right from there it's beyond the realm of science.

there have been dolphins that are homosexual lifemates until they die

One thing you need to remember in making allegations - always substantiate your claims with evidence.

good thing i never claimed homosexuality was genetic. also, 2 was a red herring.

No it wasn't. You attempted to disprove the verse by claiming that there were homosexual animals. If animals merely had tendencies then it doesn't refute the verse because Prophet Lut is criticising a nation who practiced homosexuality, not just displaying temporary inclinations.

i guess i was confused by it saying "creature"

The problem is that you pick out only one translation that supports your argument.

i did no such thing.

Typing out a list of allegations is considered the same for all practical purposes. We'll discuss them one at a time.

how many non-human animals are muslims?

Every non-human animal is Muslim; they are all submitted to God.

look at the context and you tell me.

thanx for the strawman.

It wasn't; it was a perfect analogy. In the case you cited, when Moses says that he was the first believer, it does not negate the belief of Abraham pbuh or his children because Moses pbuh is speaking about his immediate time and context. Just like the teacher who is speaking to his class about that day. See also verse 26:52 of the Qur'an, where the magicians said that they wished to be awalul mu'mineen the exact same phrase said by Moses which you have quoted translated as 'the first of believers'. They said this even though Moses and Harun were right in from of them! This proves that the meaning of the phrase is considered in context.

You've fallen silent about the other allegations that I've refuted. Can I take this as an admission of error on your part? EDIT: I see your new post. Thank you for admitting your mistake, as it makes our dialogue much more productive.

 

[Fyllbult]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Salam
I challenge anyone to prove that the Quran is not the word of God.
It is the word of God,There are numerous examples, but lets have who thinks that the Quran is not the word of God to prove it.

I can't and do not seek to do so. nobody really can. You can't prove that it is either. Don't worry, I'm not attacking you or your position, my little friend. Please read on...

The introductory post of this thread is a perfect example of the harm in believing in things. I would like, if I may, to create a distinction.

When somebody asks me if I Believe in God I have to say no. This isn't because I don't have a relationship with God, quite the contrary. You see when you believe in something then you must defend it as Anis did above.

Now I will ask you Do you believe in the chair you are sitting in? Of course you don't believe in it. It's there. You don't have to believe in it because it's there and you are sitting on it. You can even show a blind man that the chair is there. That is my relationship with God. I don't have to believe in God and I don't define God as He or She or It. I do not have to defend my position because whatever it is or isn't, it is not formed by judgements. I just accept that God is here because God is here.

Now then, Anis, and anyone else interested, you see you can have a relationship with God and God's word by knowing it rather than believing in it. It is a deeper and far more satisfying relationship. it creates a space where more conversation can be had about it than whether or not somebody is right or wrong. It doesn't have to be defended. The conversations that erupt within that space are nurturing, sharing and teaching to those who are willing to be taught. Not defending, arguing, and making others wrong in order to be right.

I will add that this message applies to many parts if not all of life.

Many wars have been fought by people defending what they believe in.

Peace

 

[ishkabab]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I can't and do not seek to do so. nobody really can. You can't prove that it is either. Don't worry, I'm not attacking you or your position, my little friend. Please read on...

The introductory post of this thread is a perfect example of the harm in believing in things. I would like, if I may, to create a distinction.

When somebody asks me if I Believe in God I have to say no. This isn't because I don't have a relationship with God, quite the contrary. You see when you believe in something then you must defend it as Anis did above.

Now I will ask you Do you believe in the chair you are sitting in? Of course you don't believe in it. It's there. You don't have to believe in it because it's there and you are sitting on it. You can even show a blind man that the chair is there. That is my relationship with God. I don't have to believe in God and I don't define God as He or She or It. I do not have to defend my position because whatever it is or isn't, it is not formed by judgements. I just accept that God is here because God is here.

Now then, Anis, and anyone else interested, you see you can have a relationship with God and God's word by knowing it rather than believing in it. It is a deeper and far more satisfying relationship. it creates a space where more conversation can be had about it than whether or not somebody is right or wrong. It doesn't have to be defended. The conversations that erupt within that space are nurturing, sharing and teaching to those who are willing to be taught. Not defending, arguing, and making others wrong in order to be right.

I will add that this message applies to many parts if not all of life.

Many wars have been fought by people defending what they believe in.

Peace

tell me do u believe in SOULS?

 

[Fyllbult]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

I know that we are spiritual and the spiritual part of us is called the soul. Yes.

 

[Organized Chaos]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Actually it's not. The day of judgement is something that hasn't happened yet and obviously involves divine intervention. Right from there it's beyond the realm of science.

everything that is real belongs in the realm of science

One thing you need to remember in making allegations - always substantiate your claims with evidence.

not hard...http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/marine-gay.html

No it wasn't. You attempted to disprove the verse by claiming that there were homosexual animals. If animals merely had tendencies then it doesn't refute the verse because Prophet Lut is criticising a nation who practiced homosexuality, not just displaying temporary inclinations.

so, if a man is homosexual for 5 years and then stops, they were just tendancies? you haven't defined a distinction.

The problem is that you pick out only one translation that supports your argument.

actually, i got that translation from a muslim. please feel free to give another.

Every non-human animal is Muslim; they are all submitted to God.

you said it yourself...where's the evidence?

You've fallen silent about the other allegations that I've refuted. Can I take this as an admission of error on your part? EDIT: I see your new post. Thank you for admitting your mistake, as it makes our dialogue much more productive.

i'm sorry, i do not have a qur'an at my disposal right now. i am not at my house. i will respond to those later.

 

[Fyllbult]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

^^^^
See?

Must be defended.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

hello Fyllbult,

I can't and do not seek to do so. nobody really can. You can't prove that it is either.

Certainly we can prove that something cannot be from God, through careful analysis of the material being discussed. One needs to only find something in the work that contradicts the concept of God which is being referred to. For example, if we are discussing the Bible, I would have trouble attributing portions of Ezekiel 23 to God. But of course that's the topic of another thread.

As for the remainder of your post, I think you may find it more relevant in the following thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/6568-existence-god.html

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Science and Homosexuality

Hello Organized Chaos,

everything that is real belongs in the realm of science

In which case you would have to re-define science.

Let me explain this to you in a clearer fashion. If we consider science to be the systematic intellectual study of the universe through observation and experiment then we have to consider that we neither know God's potential nor do we know how He will choose to bring things about on the Day of Judgement. How can we analyze the two?

If God created the laws of science which govern the universe, then He has the capability to suspend such laws - this is what we call a miracle. A miracle is defined as an event inexplicable by or contradictory to the laws of science. You cannot argue that a miracle does not exist by definition.

Besides, I gave you a conceivable explanation - there are a number of ways in which God could cause the illusion of stars falling from an earthly perspective.

not hard...http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/marine-gay.html

Thanks for the link, but you will note that already I covered Bagemihl's work in my very first post in this thread. To quote from the link I gave:

Even biologist Bruce Bagemihl, whose book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity was cited by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association in their amici curiae brief in Lawrence v. Texas and is touted as proof that homosexuality is natural among animals, is careful to include a caveat:

Any account of homosexuality and transgender animals is also necessarily an account of human interpretations of these phenomena....We are in the dark about the internal experience of the animal participants: as a result, the biases and limitations of the human observer--in both the gathering and interpretation of data--come to the forefront in this situation.....With people we can often speak directly to individuals (or read written accounts)....With animals in contrast, we can often directly observe their sexual (and allied) behaviors, but can only infer or interpret their meanings and motivations."[15]​

Dr. Bagemihl's interpretation, however, throughout his 750-page book unabashedly favors the animal homosexuality theory. Its pages are filled with descriptions of animal acts that would have a homosexual connotation in human beings. Dr. Bagemihl does not prove, however, that these acts have the same meaning for animals. He simply gives them a homosexual interpretation. Not surprisingly, his book was published by Stonewall Inn Editions, "an imprint of St. Martin's Press devoted to gay and lesbian interest books."

...Dr. Bagemihl's Biological Exuberance research displays his fundamental dissatisfaction with science and enthusiasm for aboriginal mythology:

Western science has a lot to learn from aboriginal cultures about systems of gender and sexuality...[21]
To Western science, homosexuality (both animal and human) is an anomaly, an unexpected behavior that above all requires some sort of "explanation" or "cause" or "rationale." In contrast, to many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexuality and transgender are a routine and expected occurrence in both the human and animal worlds...[22]

Most Native American tribes formally recognize--and honor--human homosexuality and transgender in the role of the 'two-spirit' person (sometimes formerly known as berdache). The 'two-spirit' is a sacred man or woman who mixes gender categories by wearing clothes of opposite or both sexes .... And often engaging in same -sex relations. ... In many Native American cultures, certain animals are also symbolically associated with two-spiritedness, often in the form of creation myths and origin legends relating to the first or "supernatural" two-spirit(s)....A Zuni creation story relates how the first two spirits--creatures that were neither male nor female, yet both at the same time--were the twelve offspring of a mythical brother-sister pair. Some of these creatures were human, but one was a bat and another an old buck Deer.[23]​

Dr. Bagemihl applies this androgynous myth, so widespread in today's homosexual movement, to the animal kingdom with the help of Indian and aboriginal mythology. He invites the West to embrace "a new paradigm:"[24]

Ultimately, the synthesis of scientific views represented by Biological Exuberance brings us full circle--back to the way of looking at the world that is in accordance with some of the most ancient indigenous conceptions of animal (and human) sexual and gender variability. This perspective dissolves binary oppositions....Biological Exuberance is...a worldview that is at once primordial and futuristic, in which gender is kaleidoscopic, sexualities are multiple, and the categories of male and female are fluid and transmutable.[25]​

[15] Bagemihl, p. 2. (Our emphasis.)

[21] Bagemihl, p. 5.

[22] Ibid., p. 215.

[23] Ibid., p. 216.

[24] "The final chapter of part 1, 'A New Paradigm: Biological Exuberance,' calls for a radical rethinking of the way we view the natural world. This revisioning begins with an exploration of another, alternative set of human interpretations: traditional beliefs about animal homosexuality/transgender in indigenous cultures." Ibid., p. 5.

[25] Ibid., p. 262.

Besides, you initially mentioned 'lifemates' yet there was nothing Bagemihl's work to indicate exclusive relationships amongst same-sex animals. It is, at best, temporary inclinations as I pointed out.

so, if a man is homosexual for 5 years and then stops, they were just tendancies?

If that is the case then obviously he cannot identify himself as a homosexual but must admit that for a limited time period he felt such urges.

actually, i got that translation from a muslim.

Not a criterion for validity.

please feel free to give another.

I already explained the relevant word - 'alameen.

you said it yourself...where's the evidence?

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want. Are you speaking of linguistic evidence that 'Muslim' means such a thing, in which case you can consult any arabic dictionary. Obviously, if animals are in the servitude of God, they are all considered Muslims. This is the Islamic belief.

Regards