Punishment for apostasy

[M.I.A.]

...jfk?


.....mlk?


..........MX?


...is it too late to change username?

I'm Kidding but only just, I nearly got stabbed...

Bad knife etiquette is a health and safety hazard.

Always carry knives with the tip facing downwards.

Achieve competency.


....do not rotate at the hip while pointing the knife.


I sincerely hope you people are not zombies.


Dangerous knife carrier does not live here.

...can't make this stuff up!


No clue who salman rushdie is?


.....ooooohh.. I exclaimed before thinking I had imagined it..

But somebody mentioned it as they left.


...maybe I should sell Ferraris.

 

[Scimitar]

Greetings,



This claim often pops up in this debate, but in fact the death penalty was completely abolished in the UK in 1998.
Peace

Officially, yes... you telling me you believe the UK doesn't take out home grown threats? come on fella.

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

You didn't answer. Are Ayan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie guilty of treason? What exactly is Treason as it pertains to a religion? Treason when it relates to a country usually means acts of wanton destruction or at least endangering the lives of people of your own country.

You say opinions are opinions. So it is not "treason" for an ex-Muslim to speak against Islam? Just want to be clear. Because a death fatwa was put on Rushdie and Ali has received many death threats as well. These are from false Muslims?

Their opinion is not worthy of it in my honest opinion... I've read the satanic verses, from start to finish - the start itself was highly amusing to know how Salman envisioned satans fall from heaven to earth - singing a bollywood film song from the 50's lol

Mera jhoota hai japani, mera patloon englishtani, sarr pe laal topi wala phir bhi dil hai hindustani - translation, my shoes are japanese, my trousers from england i wear a red turks hat but my heart is fully Hindu... that to me spelled volumes alone - did I find it offensive? No. Did I find it amusing? Yes, Did I get an insight into the dark workings of a an ex Muslims mind - yes... was it treason? NO. He wrote a book ffs.

As for your beloved Ayaan - she's just a tool in satan's play box... and she played Tavis well good here:

Post 911, the media machine propagates a mutual disdain for both Islam and Christianity. Over the years it dawns upon us, that secular ideals have no tolerance for the worlds two most adhered to religions - Christianity and Islam. Here you can see it at work.

This is defamation, from people who are not credible - they are media monkeys.

If you're looking for an extreme opinion - you won't find it here... you'll find an honest opinion coming from someone who has argued these topics constantly for five years in the hope that I can present a POV that reflects the majority of Muslims on this planet.

Shia Imams who make fatwa do not qualify in my opinion for the majority Sunni populations opinion on such matters - especially when the scholars themselves are very much split on the issue and therefore approach with serious caution.

For me - the Shia wing of Islam has always been problematic politically speaking. And what you fail to understand is that these Fatwa's have a political edge to them which make them even more difficult to tread on - thus the Shia to me are quite ignorant of their approach and totally whack for making a fatwa on Salman Rushdie for writing something in a context that was fiction... where were they when Dante's Inferno was making its waves eh? sheesh. You still won't frikkiin get it.

oH i DUNNO... surprise me.

Scimi

 

[M.I.A.]

It's a funny ol world,

Anjum choudry is what the people want apparently.

 

[Pygoscelis]

For me - the Shia wing of Islam has always been problematic politically speaking. And what you fail to understand is that these Fatwa's have a political edge to them which make them even more difficult to tread on - thus the Shia to me are quite ignorant of their approach and totally whack for making a fatwa on Salman Rushdie for writing something in a context that was fiction... where were they when Dante's Inferno was making its waves eh? sheesh. You still won't frikkiin get it.

Is this long post your way of saying "no"? These people are not doing treason against Islam and should not be murdered? You still didn't define what treason to a religion means. What would qualify? If you disagree with the fellow who responded to me before you and said Salman Rushdie should be put to death, then how far would Salman Rushie have had to have gone for you to say he should be?

And as for Ayan Hirsi Ali, why do you presume that she is my beloved? I though it would be clear by now that I am not an Ayan Hirsi Ali or Sam Harris type of atheist. Or do you view all us atheists as the same?

As for your claim that the "media machine" is out to get Christianity and Islam.... I just have to roll my eyes. Islam yes. A lot of the media, especially in the USA, is out against Islam, but Christianity? Christianity gets pushed on the rest of us every single day, and for the most part it is fundamentalist Christians that attack the other religions. For every Ayan Hirsi Ali or Sam Harris you show me, I could show you a dozen Christian zealots that hate Muslims. Look how popular Donald Trump (who wants to ban Muslims) is right now. Images of witch trials and the inquisition come to mind. But a little bit of pushing back and they claim persecution. The irony is so thick you can cut it with a chainsaw.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Why are you speechless? Do you believe that murder is wrong Pygoscelis?

Indeed. I am speechless because what was said was so far out there beyond wrong that I don't know how to walk the person back to sanity.

 

[Scimitar]

Is this long post your way of saying "no"? These people are not doing treason against Islam and should not be murdered? You still didn't define what treason to a religion means. What would qualify? If you disagree with the fellow who responded to me before you and said Salman Rushdie should be put to death, then how far would Salman Rushie have had to have gone for you to say he should be?

And as for Ayan Hirsi Ali, why do you presume that she is my beloved? I though it would be clear by now that I am not an Ayan Hirsi Ali or Sam Harris type of atheist. Or do you view all us atheists as the same?

As for your claim that the "media machine" is out to get Christianity and Islam.... I just have to roll my eyes. Islam yes. A lot of the media, especially in the USA, is out against Islam, but Christianity? Christianity gets pushed on the rest of us every single day, and for the most part it is fundamentalist Christians that attack the other religions. For every Ayan Hirsi Ali or Sam Harris you show me, I could show you a dozen Christian zealots that hate Muslims. Look how popular Donald Trump (who wants to ban Muslims) is right now. Images of witch trials and the inquisition come to mind. But a little bit of pushing back and they claim persecution. The irony is so thick you can cut it with a chainsaw.

Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi weren't selling state secrets far as I can tell lol - you're attempting to put words in my mouth i do not sponsor lol.

I've told you - OPINION DOES NOT COUNT AS TREASON IN MY RESEARCH - TREASON IS TREASON.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Hi MuslimInshallah,

Your words are kind and loving and I appreciate that. I don't think I could dislike you if I tried I can see that your motivation is good and that you hope and pray for non-muslims to come to Allah because you genuinely care for them. And that is truly beautiful.

But just as I could not dislike you, because you are so kind, I can not believe what I do not, because it just ins't believable to me. I am an avid camper an canoeist and have been most of my life. I find peace and tranquility in nature, of a quasi-transcendent quality. But that just doesn't lead me to see anything supernatural. I sit in awe under the stars looking up at the massive universe and sitting in wonder at how amazing it all is. But that does not lead me to see any reason to believe in a creator God.

We are simply looking at life from different frameworks and worldviews. There is no polite way for you to tell me that I am spiritually blind or that my heart is covered up from the truth that you see, etc, though I must say you come awfully close in your post above. There is no polite way for me to tell you that I see you as engaging in fantasy. But we can love and respect one another and accept that the other simply does not believe as we do. That is all I have been asking for above. I find that some of you religious folks do afford me that, and some do not.

Peace Be Upon You always.

Hello Pygoscelis,

(smile) What I was most trying to say previously was that it might help you to ask God to help you perceive Him.

Mmm... fantasy...? (twinkle) Perhaps the word "delusional" might be more apt? (smile) I remember reading a story years ago about a fictional explorer who stumbles into an isolated valley in the mountains. Everyone in the valley is blind, and they think he is delusional when he talks about sight to them. They patiently try to explain away all that he is perceiving with his eyes. But when he persists in saying that he can see, they finally decide to surgically remove his eyes, in the hope of curing his delusion...

(smile) Since I can remember, I have "felt" God. (smile) Not feel as in touch, but as in an awareness of God, rather like what I imagine that pigeons feel when they can "feel" their location. (smile) Like a compass swings round, though you can't see anything that causes it to do so, I feel a pull within towards rightness, harmony. And occasionally, I feel a brush with something so vast and so beautiful, that I shiver with my insignificance. (pensively) This, I think, it what the word "awe" truly means.

(smile) How do you explain colour to a blind person?

So yes, I'm afraid I do see you as somehow missing this sense that I can feel. Indeed, it is somewhat mysterious to me how you can't sense this. But I respect you when you say that you cannot feel it. You have stated several times in this thread that you feel you are being accused of dishonesty when you say you do not feel a connection with God. No, no, I do not think you are being dishonest. I think you are being very honest (smile) And this is why I think it is not impolite for me to say that this sense is somehow muffled in you. It is what you yourself honestly say: you do not feel it.

(smile) But just as the colours of this beautiful world lift my heart, I find that this sense of God adds so much beauty and texture to my life. And if I was to live without it... oh, that would be such a terrible loss!

The immersion in nature I mentioned would not, by itself, necessarily lift the veil on your sense of connection with God. But if you were to ask Him humbly and sincerely... God might Help you. (smile) The natural setting could help you limit the cacophony on the other senses, and this might make it easier for you to start to open that connection with God, with your petition to Him.

(smile) Though you might think it a completely crazy thing to do.


Anyway, I appreciate your efforts to converse with people on this Forum. It is not easy to be a minority, I know. Especially one that the majority may feel negative emotions towards.

May God, the Sublime, Bless you.

 

[Scimitar]

is this long post your way of saying "no"? These people are not doing treason against islam and should not be murdered? You still didn't define what treason to a religion means. What would qualify? If you disagree with the fellow who responded to me before you and said salman rushdie should be put to death, then how far would salman rushie have had to have gone for you to say he should be?

And as for ayan hirsi ali, why do you presume that she is my beloved? I though it would be clear by now that i am not an ayan hirsi ali or sam harris type of atheist. Or do you view all us atheists as the same?

As for your claim that the "media machine" is out to get christianity and islam.... I just have to roll my eyes. Islam yes. A lot of the media, especially in the usa, is out against islam, but christianity? Christianity gets pushed on the rest of us every single day, and for the most part it is fundamentalist christians that attack the other religions. For every ayan hirsi ali or sam harris you show me, i could show you a dozen christian zealots that hate muslims. Look how popular donald trump (who wants to ban muslims) is right now. Images of witch trials and the inquisition come to mind. But a little bit of pushing back and they claim persecution. The irony is so thick you can cut it with a chainsaw.

i give up!!! This guy is trolling :d

 

[Pygoscelis]

Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi weren't selling state secrets far as I can tell lol - you're attempting to put words in my mouth i do not sponsor lol.

I've told you - OPINION DOES NOT COUNT AS TREASON IN MY RESEARCH - TREASON IS TREASON.

You said that apostates are to be put to death only if they do treason. So what is treason as it relates to apostacy in your religion? I am glad that you don't view opinion as treason, but you still have not answered the very straight forward question.

 

[Scimitar]

You said that apostates are to be put to death only if they do treason. So what is treason as it relates to apostacy in your religion? I am glad that you don't view opinion as treason, but you still have not answered the very straight forward question.

Pygo, I also asked you:

Their opinion is not worthy of it in my honest opinion... I've read the satanic verses, from start to finish - the start itself was highly the Shia to me are quite ignorant of their approach and totally whack for making a fatwa on Salman Rushdie for writing something in a context that was fiction... where were they when Dante's Inferno was making its waves eh? sheesh. You still won't frikkiin get it.

oH i DUNNO... surprise me.

No surprise here lol. I;m bored.

I'll repeat myself again to answer your question and this is going to go circular real fast *hyper eye roll.

When John from team A joins the enemy team B and informs team B of team A's wekanesses so team A can attack team B and jeapordise the peace and secirity of team A.

Gosh.

Please do not ask me this again.

Scimi

 

[piXie]

Indeed. I am speechless because what was said was so far out there beyond wrong that I don't know how to walk the person back to sanity.

Where did you get that concept of right and wrong from? And who or what do you believe decides that?

Right and wrong demands accountability for us all but you do not believe in that.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Please do not ask me this again.

I will keep asking you so long as you keep avoiding the question. The eye rolling attitude you are giving accomplishes nothing. How does "John from team A informing team B of team A's weaknesses" apply to your religion and apostacy? There are secret weaknesses within Islam that only Muslims know that if you tell the "enemies" of Islam will amount to treason?

 

[Pygoscelis]

[/B]
Where did you get that concept of right and wrong from? And who or what do you believe decides that?

Right and wrong demands accountability for us all but you do not believe in that.

I explained that at length in my posts back and forth with Muhammad. My sense of right and wrong comes from my evolved senses of empathy and fairness. I don't confuse that sense of morality with any sense of obedience to an imagined authority figure or "moral law giver". I do believe in accountability, to myself and to others, just not to an imagined God. If you slash my somebody's tires, praying for forgiveness from Allah doesn't fix anything. Amends must be made with the person you wronged.

If you want to talk accountability, I did so above. I believe that externalizing your moral judgments and claiming that some higher power is making them instead of yourself, is what I consider an avoidance of personal responsibility. Again and again I hear religious people doing and saying nasty things (like hating on homosexuals), and then saying it isn't them saying it, and they are only telling me what their God says.

Christianity does it far worse, and introduces vicarious redemption. By the suffering of an innocent person (Jesus) they say that they undo their own wrongdoing. I am glad Islam doesn't buy into that sort of avoidance of personal responsibility at least.

 

[M.I.A.]

With regards to treason, there are accounts of how people made plots to kill the prophet pbuh..

And how he already knew.

Even in Christianity.. Although Islamic accounts differ in part.

I don't think the response was the apostasy punishment in either case..

Although those with better knowledge will know.

 

[Scimitar]

I will keep asking you so long as you keep avoiding the question. The eye rolling attitude you are giving accomplishes nothing. How does "John from team A informing team B of team A's weaknesses" apply to your religion and apostacy? There are secret weaknesses within Islam that only Muslims know that if you tell the "enemies" of Islam will amount to treason?

I have not avoided your questions, I replied to you but you seem to want this to go circular - and you want to put words in my mouth which I do not sponsor.

To you be your extreme interpretation of Islam, to me - my middle way - the way of Islam.

Scimi

 

[Pygoscelis]

I have not avoided your questions, I replied to you but you seem to want this to go circular - and you want to put words in my mouth which I do not sponsor.

To you be your extreme interpretation of Islam, to me - my middle way - the way of Islam.

Scimi

When you don't answer the question, I am forced to guess. You said that mere apostacy is not enough, and that treason against Islam is required. I asked you what that means. You refused to answer. You told me what treason in general is, and gave an analogy to nations. I still do not know what you think is treason as it applies to a religion. Is it bombing a mosque or something less than that? Apparently it isn't speaking harshly against the religion like Ayan Hirsi Ali does. And it has something to do with somebody from Islam telling weaknesses to enemies of Islam is all I can get from your analogy/answer. So what is it? What qualifies? Why are you so hesitant to answer?

 

[piXie]

I explained that at length in my posts back and forth with Muhammad. My sense of right and wrong comes from my evolved senses of empathy and fairness.

Every mans sense of empathy and fairness has evolved and based on these he decides what is right and wrong?

So one mans sense tells him one thing and another mans sense tells him another thing. Who decides who is right then ?

I do believe in accountability, to myself and to others

Accountability based upon which law ?

With all due respect, it doesn't make sense.

If you slash my somebody's tires, praying for forgiveness from Allah doesn't fix anything. Amends must be made with the person you wronged.

Indeed, I agree. In Islam the rights of man are based upon accountability whereas the rights of Allah are based upon forgiveness

I believe that externalizing your moral judgments and claiming that some higher power is making them instead of yourself, is what I consider an avoidance of personal responsibility.

Again, I agree.

But what is your evidence that the believe of homosexuality being wrong evolved in men first and then man claimed God said it, or was it the other way wrong.

The Quran was not sent to "justify" man. It came to confirm the good in man and reject the bad. Why would man forbid anything upon himself. If he evolved from an animal, then an animal pursues what it likes, not the opposite!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Officially, yes... you telling me you believe the UK doesn't take out home grown threats? come on fella.

Scimi

So now you're comparing the Islamic punishment for apostasy with some shady secret service hit operation? It looks like you find it morally questionable just as I do.

Peace

 

[M.I.A.]

Every mans sense of empathy and fairness has evolved and based on these he decides what is right and wrong?

So one mans sense tells him one thing and another mans sense tells him another thing. Who decides who is right then ?



Accountability based upon which law ?

With all due respect, it doesn't make sense.


Indeed, I agree. In Islam the rights of man are based upon accountability whereas the rights of Allah are based upon forgiveness


Again, I agree.

But what is your evidence that the believe of homosexuality being wrong evolved in men first and then man claimed God said it, or was it the other way wrong.

The Quran was not sent to "justify" man. It came to confirm the good in man and reject the bad. Why would man forbid anything upon himself. If he evolved from an animal, then an animal pursues what it likes, not the opposite!

My take on homosexuality,

Iv seen kids of the same sex lay there heads on each other's laps.

...iv seen grown men hold hands.

The change is in loss of innocents..

For example what is defined as modern feminism may in no way represent what actual feminism looks like..

Who is to blame for the pigeon holing? The stereotyping?

...as it goes I am no terrorist either.

Maybe we might walk I'm circles a little more?