question for a christian

[Supreme]

there were 'no' different versions of the Quran. the Quran was written in scrolls and in people's memories all along, Uthman (RA) compiled it into four books to be sent to different regions for the purposes of da3wa..

if you want to engage this topic, I suggest you join the 25 page thread, I am not going to whittle myself away over a topic that is discussed in more than one place just to appease the christian desire that all books be lowered down to one common denominator! ..

all the best

I apologise, you seem to have thought my response was directed at you. Rather, it was addressed at Italianguy. The fact that I mentioned 'Italianguy' twice in my post is a hint to the slower amongst you!

 

[جوري]

I apologise, you seem to have thought my response was directed at you. Rather, it was addressed at Italianguy. The fact that I mentioned 'Italianguy' twice in my post is a hint to the slower amongst you!

and I am correcting the views of what you deemed

I think what Italianguy means

seeing that they are incorrect!

all the best!

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't believe that christianity was meant for the 'gentiles' anyway and I think that is part of its mess, it makes no sense to me that god would change his mind, and it makes less sense, that god would now be a son and a spirit, so what can I say?.. That is just my view on the matter...

I understand that this is what you believe. It may even be what is taught in Islam. But it is not what is actually taught in the Bible.

You see, though many Muslims like to refer to the verse where Jesus says, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24), that is not the end of the story. It is true that Jesus was sent to Israel, for he came as the Jewish Messiah. But it not true that his followers were to be similarly so restricted.

1) First, even Jesus himself ministered to more than just the people of Israel. In this very story itself, Jesus goes on to minister to the Canaanite woman:

Matthew 15

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Please note, that this entire event takes place while Jesus is in "the region of Tyre and Sidon." These are Phoenician cities along the coast north of (i.e., outside of) Israel. And the conclusion of the story shows Jesus granting the request of this Canaanite (i.e., non-Jewish) woman. There are many other stories of Jesus engaged in ministry outside of Israel and with Gentiles, but to use this single verse to declare that Jesus is exlcusively ministering to the Jews and brings a message for them alone is to glaring miss the context that the whole event takes place outside of Israel and in the midst of Jesus ministering to a non-Jew.



2) Second, Jesus specifically directs his disciples to be in ministry and making disciples among not just Jews but all people:

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Acts 1
7He [Jesus] said to them [the disciples]: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Thus, even from an understanding that Jesus generally (though not exclusively) restricted his ministry and message to that of the Jews, he does not so do with his disciples. Rather, he expressly sends them out -- to make disciples of all nations (the Greek behind that term refers to all ethnicities). Jesus tells his disciples that are to be his witness, taking his message, not only to the Jewish world, but globally.



3) I believe you err when you see this as God changing his mind. For Israel's role was never to be God's only people. They were chosen for a purpose, and God makes that clear to them in the words of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 51:4
"Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: The law will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations.

Isaiah 60:3
Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

The Jews were to live in covenant with God and become a beacon to other peoples so that they too would be drawn into relationship with the one God. The nation of Israel may have failed with that respect, the the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, did not. And, to this very day, he continues to "draw all men" (John 12:32), not just Jews but also non-Jews (i.e., Gentiles), to himself.

 

[Danah]

hello all. am not here to turn this thread into a debate just want to ask 2 questions which i need some answers for and then the thread can simply be closed.

• i would like to know if interest (usary) is forbiden in christianity
• and if eating pig is forbidden

if they are forbiden can u tell where it says so from the king james version of the bible. if its not forbiden then no problem we just leave it there.

thank you all

An interesting video you may or your friend may like to watch about pork from Christians view:

[Media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrJkFBEt_c[/Media]

:wa:

 

[جوري]

I understand that this is what you believe. It may even be what is taught in Islam. But it is not what is actually taught in the Bible.
.

That is what I know to be true.. how much of your bible are scribal addendums? did the story of Mary Magdalene even take place?

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxY3tpBSKQ0&feature=PlayList&p=A4CAF0D404F8EEA5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22[/MEDIA]

I can't hold any content in your bible as true given the disparity in the book itself, let alone recorded history and logic..


all the best
​

​

 

[Supreme]

An interesting video you may or your friend may like to watch about pork from Christians view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrJkFBEt_c

:wa:

The conclusion one can draw from such a video is not Christianity's view, but the view of some Christians. Christianity is far too diverse to say for certain that two Christians views are the same, but seeing as the Catholic Church- the largest denomination of Christianity with a billion adherents- and Eastern Orthodoxy with 150 million adherents do not prohibit pork, it is safe to assume that the general majority of Christians do not have a problem.

 

[tango92]

^yh its a shame, God doesnt really want to guide you lot does he?

 

[Grace Seeker]

An interesting video you may or your friend may like to watch about pork from Christians view:

And again, as with Italian Guy, I'm not going to say that this person isn't a Christian. But I do question Joel Osteen's interpretation of the scriptures (BTW, not just on this point but many others that he preaches, such as his prosperity gospel). However, I will certainly recognize that these two gentlemen are not alone in their view. There are many others who would agree with them, but they are in the minority. And the reason they are has nothing to do with the rest of Christianity being in rebellion against God and God's laws, but rather an understanding that those passages to which they refered do not apply universally, not now, not ever. They apply only to the people of the nation of Israel, for they are part of God's covenant with them as Jews. We who are gentiles are connected with God in a different covenant that does not include the same dietary (and many other) laws that were part of the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.


BTW, what is the Islamic ruling with regard to the eating of shellfish? As Osteen points out, that too is outlawed for Jews. If Muslim hold that Jews have this right, wouldn't Muslims be restricted from eating not just pork but any of the other things that Jews were told not to eat?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I can't hold any content in your bible as true given the disparity in the book itself, let alone recorded history and logic..


all the best

Then you can't hold as true that Jesus ever said that he came only to the lost sheep of Israel either. You just like to believe it because it fits with your own worldview. And that's all well and good, but if you are going to assert as factual that Jesus said that line, then please remember to keep that assertion within context, and that context reveals that it isn't as exclusive of an assertion as you pretend it to be.

 

[جوري]

Then you can't hold as true that Jesus ever said that he came only to the lost sheep of Israel either. You just like to believe it because it fits with your own worldview. And that's all well and good, but if you are going to assert as factual that Jesus said that line, then please remember to keep that assertion within context, and that context reveals that it isn't as exclusive of an assertion as you pretend it to be.

Only contents that agree with Islamic principles.. I'll try to narrow the confidence interval the next time!

all the best

 

[Supreme]

^yh its a shame, God doesnt really want to guide you lot does he?

Only Protestants;D

 

[mohammed_alim]

some one who is a christian ovbiously will want to follow what jesus (peace be upon him) did they would would want to be like him becuase he is a excellent example on how to lead ones life. so jesus (peace be uon him) did not eat pork because it is a unclean animal. if there was nothing wrong with eating pig then he wud have eaten it but the main point is he diidnt. as followers of jesus peace be upon him. you should stick to what jesus peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow?

 

[Italianguy]

I think what Italianguy means is that there were once different version of the Quran, until it was compiled by Uthman and the others destroyed. Italiaguy, do you concede that pork and usury are indeed not forbidden to Christians?

Well, I didn't mean to point out any kind of veiw on the Qur'an. I amy have...sorry. Typing some of these replys on an iphone can be tough to get a question across as many want it.

I can say that for some Christians it's ok to eat it. Not all agree. as you said. I chose to do so on my own accord.. ...but if another Christian chooses to eat it who am I to judge? I wouldn't think anything different of that person. It's my choice.

God be with you Supreme!

sorry buddy, I am leaving to go to New York in like 30 minutes so i won't be able to explain myself more for a couple of days. God bless.

 

[sister herb]

Have a safe travel to New York then (sorry this is off topic comment).

Thanks to all of you about this interesting discussion.

 

[Italianguy]

Have a safe travel to New York then (sorry this is off topic comment).

Thanks to all of you about this interesting discussion.

Thank you. Ciao!

 

[glo]

^yh its a shame, God doesnt really want to guide you lot does he?

What makes you think that God doesn't guide us??
Of course he guides us all the time - as long as we open our hearts to him!

I think what you mean is that the Bible doesn't seem to be specific, explicit and clear enough for you to consider it as a 'guide book'. Perhaps that's what you have come to expect the Qu'ran to be: wholly specific, explicit and clear (I personally doubt that it is entirely so ... but that's for another discussion ...)

I agree that there is much in the Bible which is difficult to understand or is confusing or seems contradictory.
But strangely, those are still things which I believe are there to guide us!

The Bible is much more than just an instruction book - it requires us to engage with it, study it, ponder and discuss it, pray about it, question it and be challenged by it!

I love to watch and listen to Christians, when they discuss their understanding of the Bible - even if they have different understandings and interpretations of certain Bible passages.
Ever since the beginning (see Book of Acts) followers of Christ have pondered, discussed and tried to agree on how best to implement Christ's teachings in every new situation/age/culture/circumstance ...
I believe that is part of engaging with God and being in relationship with him!

Not a day goes by when Biblical teachings don't challenge me to the core!

I certainly do feel God's guidance - directly through his Spirit within me, but also through reading the Bible - through the new insights I gain, but also through the things 'I don't yet get'.
May God be patient with me and continue to guide me.

I feel truly blessed to have been invited on this wonderful journey with God! :statisfie

 

[Danah]

BTW, what is the Islamic ruling with regard to the eating of shellfish? As Osteen points out, that too is outlawed for Jews. If Muslim hold that Jews have this right, wouldn't Muslims be restricted from eating not just pork but any of the other things that Jews were told not to eat?

I dont know about Jews and shellfish but here what Islam said:

Are shellfish and shrimp halal to eat?
Are all birds halal to eat?


Anything of seafood is halal. As the Quran says in surah number 5, verse 96, "To hunt and to eat the fish of the sea is made lawful for you." In surah 16, verse 14, "And He it is who has constrained the sea to be of service that you eat fresh meat from thence."

Likewise, all the birds are edible, especially Malik's opinion states that every animal except pork could be edible. Some school's object birds or animals that are meat-eaters. Those birds, like falcon or crow, could be makruh but not haram.


Source

 

[Supreme]

some one who is a christian ovbiously will want to follow what jesus (peace be upon him) did they would would want to be like him becuase he is a excellent example on how to lead ones life. so jesus (peace be uon him) did not eat pork because it is a unclean animal. if there was nothing wrong with eating pig then he wud have eaten it but the main point is he diidnt. as followers of jesus peace be upon him. you should stick to what jesus peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow?

Christians don't aspire to be like Jesus, it's completely impossible. We know we can't die on crosses and be resurrected three days later or go into the desert for forty days and forty nights in fast. We do, however, aspire to obey the teachings of Jesus. Seeing as He never mentioned anything about the prohibition of pork- if anything, He seems to have sanctioned it by intelligently pointing out that what goes into a man does not make him impure- then Christians should not have anything against it.

 

[mohammed_alim]

ovibously you cant be like him, bt his ur role model. giving up pork is not exactly very hard... its gets so confusing and differnt opinions r given but 1 has to be the right and safe way and 1 has to be the rong way. i would much rather be on the safe side.

 

[Grace Seeker]

if there was nothing wrong with eating pig then he wud have eaten it but the main point is he diidnt. as followers of jesus peace be upon him. you should stick to what jesus peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow?

I completely disagree. And I suspect that if you were to think this through at all levels you would disagree with this part of your post as well.


First, we know that God made everything and that everything that God made was good. Pigs are declared to be ritually unclean. But this does not mean that they are "dirty". If we're simply talking about dirt, chickens are among the dirtiest animals I know. Have you ever harvested a fresh warm egg covered with excrement? I'm not trying to be crude, but pigs are not really any dirtier than many other animals. Lots of animals are scavengers, including most all carnivores who will gladly take a found free meal rather than have to hunt it down for themselves.

Second, the reason that Jesus didn't eat pork was because it was because it was forbidden by terms of the covenant between God and Israel, and Jesus was a member of that covenant community. To impose those standards on people outside of that covenant is not an act of a just God.

Third, there are many other things that Jesus also didn't do that I don't see anyone arguing for. If the argument that Jesus didn't do it so no one else should was really valid then why not make the same point about them? You don't because that isn't really what you want, what you want is for non-Muslims to conform to a Muslim lifestlye. I can understand that. But if you are going to make your argument the other way that we should all be conformed to Jesus' lifestyle, then I'm going to expect to see Muslims refrain from not only eating pork, but also camel, rabbit, shrimp, lobster, clams, oysters, or catfish. And if you're going to make Jesus the pattern for your life, then why don't Muslims worship YAHWEH as Jesus did?

Fourth the argument that one should not do the things that one's prophet didn't do, if extended to Muslims, would prevent Muslims from driving automobiles or flying in airplanes. Please, don't give me the line that they weren't invented then. Since Muhammad didn't invent them, they should not have been invented either. Now, you probably think that this is a pretty dumb argument, and I agree. But it isn't mine. It is yours: "you should stick to what jesus [or Muhammed] peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow."

So, let's be done with these fallacious arguments please, and just see what God says with regard to what foods Gentiles are to avoid, and the answer is that we are told that "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial." So, we might want to avoid pork for health reasons, but eating it would only be a violation of common sense, not God's command to us.