question for non-muslims

[Ummu Sufyaan]

There is a strange problem with perception. Whatever we perceive, we imagine it to be perfect since we cannot perceive anything else. We assume the Earth is perfect because we cannot live anywhere else that we know of. We assume our eyes are perfect because we can see or imagine any other way of seeing. Because we cannot know what we cannot perceive, we assume what we know represents perfection.

well, that can go back at one who doesn't believe in a diety also, does it not? <---general question?

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is, if we have free will in the first place. If free will is dependent on the brain even the slightest, that renders it as not an independent agent. Therefore, it's impossible for us to have free will. Our free will isn't based off our judgment because we can affect that with things such as alcohol or drugs. Our free will cannot have any connection with the brain because the moment it does, it could never be free.

Know what I mean? That's a different argument though.

You understand that you didn't come up with that idea yourself, but were basically programmed by genetics and your experiences to think that way.

There is a strange problem with perception. Whatever we perceive, we imagine it to be perfect since we cannot perceive anything else. We assume the Earth is perfect because we cannot live anywhere else that we know of. We assume our eyes are perfect because we can see or imagine any other way of seeing. Because we cannot know what we cannot perceive, we assume what we know represents perfection.

I believe you have this nailed down perfectly...unless, of course, there does exist a spiritual world beyond the ability of your intellect to conceive it or your physical senses to perceive it.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Q8sobieski]

Quote:
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
QUOTE]

Leave it to Saint Paul to explain why I am an agnostic but not try to make me feel bad about it, guilty, or afraid.

 

[Wyatt]

You understand that you didn't come up with that idea yourself, but were basically programmed by genetics and your experiences to think that way.

Exactly.

 

[wth1257]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

As they say here "You can get busy living or you can get busy dying".

I'm not religious, so I just try to depend on my abilities to work or think my way through things. I don't really think about it I guess:-[

 

[wth1257]

Quote:
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
QUOTE]

Leave it to Saint Paul to explain why I am an agnostic but not try to make me feel bad about it, guilty, or afraid.

I don't know why he gets such a bad rap. I always did and still do like reading his letters than any other part of the Bible.

 

[One Man Army]

Il try giving my view as a sikh of how im taught to deal with hardships, with out trying to get to preachy...

The hardship thing for me isnt just a simple thing as thought of reward, its a long explanation on which il have difficulties on typing. to begin il say a main aspect is living in the hukam (command or will of Allah). A sikh raises him self above pain and pleasure. these are thing we obtain due to the will of God. Il post the translations of a prayer sikhs read and bold the parts i think ul relate to this post. you need it all there in order to see the message. iv nt got time to post much, sorry for this. will attempt later:

Shalok, Ninth Mehl:
If you do not sing the Praises of the Lord, your life is rendered useless.Says Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord; immerse your mind in Him, like the fish in the water. ||1||
Why are you engrossed in sin and corruption? You are not detached, even for a moment!
Says Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord, and you shall not be caught in the noose of death. ||2||
Your youth has passed away like this, and old age has overtaken your body.
Says Nanak, meditate, vibrate upon the Lord; your life is fleeting away! ||3||
You have become old, and you do not understand that death is overtaking you.
Says Nanak, you are insane! Why do you not remember and meditate on God? ||4||
Your wealth, spouse, and all the possessions which you claim as your own
- none of these shall go along with you in the end. O Nanak, know this as true. ||5||
He is the Saving Grace of sinners, the Destroyer of fear, the Master of the masterless.
Says Nanak, realize and know Him, who is always with you. ||6||
He has given you your body and wealth, but you are not in love with Him.
Says Nanak, you are insane! Why do you now shake and tremble so helplessly? ||7||
He has given you your body, wealth, property, peace and beautiful mansions.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: why don't you remember the Lord in meditation? ||8||
The Lord is the Giver of all peace and comfort. There is no other at all.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: meditating in remembrance on Him, salvation is attained. ||9||
Remembering Him in meditation, salvation is attained; vibrate and meditate on Him, O my friend.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: your life is passing away! ||10||
Your body is made up of the five elements; you are clever and wise - know this well.
Believe it - you shall merge once again into the One, O Nanak, from whom you originated. ||11||
The Dear Lord abides in each and every heart; the Saints proclaim this as true.
Says Nanak, meditate and vibrate upon Him, and you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ||12||
One who is not touched by pleasure or pain, greed, emotional attachment and egotistical pride
- says Nanak, listen, mind: he is the very image of God. ||13||
One who is beyond praise and slander, who looks upon gold and iron alike
- says Nanak, listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated. ||14||
One who is not affected by pleasure or pain, who looks upon friend and enemy alike
- says Nanak, listen, mind: know that such a person is liberated. ||15||
One who does not frighten anyone, and who is not afraid of anyone else
- says Nanak, listen, mind: call him spiritually wise. ||16||
One who has forsaken all sin and corruption, who wears the robes of neutral detachment
- says Nanak, listen, mind: good destiny is written on his forehead. ||17||
One who renounces Maya and possessiveness and is detached from everything
- says Nanak, listen, mind: God abides in his heart. ||18||
That mortal, who forsakes egotism, and realizes the Creator Lord
- says Nanak, that person is liberated; O mind, know this as true. ||19||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the Lord is the Destroyer of fear, the Eradicator of evil-mindedness.
Night and day, O Nanak, whoever vibrates and meditates on the Lord's Name, sees all of his works brought to fruition. ||20||Vibrate with your tongue the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe; with your ears, hear the Lord's Name.
Says Nanak, listen, man: you shall not have to go to the house of Death. ||21||
That mortal who renounces possessiveness, greed, emotional attachment and egotism
- says Nanak, he himself is saved, and he saves many others as well. ||22||
Like a dream and a show, so is this world, you must know.
None of this is true, O Nanak, without God. ||23||Night and day, for the sake of Maya, the mortal wanders constantly.
Among millions, O Nanak, there is scarcely anyone, who keeps the Lord in his consciousness. ||24||
As the bubbles in the water well up and disappear again,
so is the universe created; says Nanak, listen, O my friend! ||25||
The mortal does not remember the Lord, even for a moment; he is blinded by the wine of Maya.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, he is caught by the noose of Death. ||26||
If you yearn for eternal peace, then seek the Sanctuary of the Lord.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: this human body is difficult to obtain. ||27||
For the sake of Maya, the fools and ignorant people run all around.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, life passes away uselessly. ||28||
That mortal who meditates and vibrates upon the Lord night and day - know him to be the embodiment of the Lord.
There is no difference between the Lord and the humble servant of the Lord; O Nanak, know this as true. ||29||
The mortal is entangled in Maya; he has forgotten the Name of the Lord of the Universe.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, what is the use of this human life? ||30||
The mortal does not think of the Lord; he is blinded by the wine of Maya.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, he is caught in the noose of Death. ||31||
In good times, there are many companions around, but in bad times, there is no one at all.
Says Nanak, vibrate, and meditate on the Lord; He shall be your only Help and Support in the end. ||32||
Mortals wander lost and confused through countless lifetimes; their fear of death is never removed.
Says Nanak, vibrate and meditate on the Lord, and you shall dwell in the Fearless Lord. ||33||
I have tried so many things, but the pride of my mind has not been dispelled.
I am engrossed in evil-mindedness, Nanak. O God, please save me! ||34||
Childhood, youth and old age - know these as the three stages of life.
Says Nanak, without meditating on the Lord, everything is useless; you must appreciate this. ||35||
You have not done what you should have done; you are entangled in the web of greed.
Nanak, your time is past and gone; why are you crying now, you blind fool? ||36||
The mind is absorbed in Maya - it cannot escape it, my friend.
Nanak, it is like a picture painted on the wall - it cannot leave it. ||37||
The man wishes for something, but something different happens.
He plots to deceive others, O Nanak, but he places the noose around his own neck instead. ||38||
People make all sorts of efforts to find peace and pleasure, but no one tries to earn pain.
Says Nanak, listen, mind: whatever pleases God comes to pass. ||39||The world wanders around begging, but the Lord is the Giver of all.
Says Nanak, meditate in remembrance on Him, and all your works will be successful. ||40||
Why do you take such false pride in yourself? You must know that the world is just a dream.
None of this is yours; Nanak proclaims this truth. ||41||
You are so proud of your body; it shall perish in an instant, my friend.
That mortal who chants the Praises of the Lord, O Nanak, conquers the world. ||42||
That person, who meditates in remembrance on the Lord in his heart, is liberated - know this well.
There is no difference between that person and the Lord: O Nanak, accept this as the Truth. ||43||
That person, who does not feel devotion to God in his mind
- O Nanak, know that his body is like that of a pig, or a dog. ||44||
A dog never abandons the home of his master.
O Nanak, in just the same way, vibrate, and meditate on the Lord, single-mindedly, with one-pointed consciousness. ||45||
Those who make pilgrimages to sacred shrines, observe ritualistic fasts and make donations to charity while still taking pride in their minds
- O Nanak, their actions are useless, like the elephant, who takes a bath, and then rolls in the dust. ||46||
The head shakes, the feet stagger, and the eyes become dull and weak.
Says Nanak, this is your condition. And even now, you have not savored the sublime essence of the Lord. ||47||
I had looked upon the world as my own, but no one belongs to anyone else.
O Nanak, only devotional worship of the Lord is permanent; enshrine this in your mind. ||48||
The world and its affairs are totally false; know this well, my friend.
Says Nanak, it is like a wall of sand; it shall not endure. ||49||
Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives.
Says Nanak, nothing lasts forever; the world is like a dream. ||50||
People become anxious, when something unexpected happens.
This is the way of the world, O Nanak; nothing is stable or permanent. ||51||
Whatever has been created shall be destroyed; everyone shall perish, today or tomorrow.
O Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and give up all other entanglements. ||52||
Dohraa:
My strength is exhausted, and I am in bondage; I cannot do anything at all.
Says Nanak, now, the Lord is my Support; He will help me, as He did the elephant. ||53||
My strength has been restored, and my bonds have been broken; now, I can do everything.
Nanak: everything is in Your hands, Lord; You are my Helper and Support. ||54||
My associates and companions have all deserted me; no one remains with me.
Says Nanak, in this tragedy, the Lord alone is my Support. ||55||
The Naam remains; the Holy Saints remain; the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, remains.
Says Nanak, how rare are those who chant the Guru's Mantra in this world. ||56||
I have enshrined the Lord's Name within my heart; there is nothing equal to it.
Meditating in remembrance on it, my troubles are taken away; I have received the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||57||1||

This is what keeps me going in "pain" and "happiness"

 

[justahumane]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Well, I believe that such hardship is will of GOD, and I thank GOD by looking at hardships others are facing which are definetely greater. I thankd GOD for his kindness in not making me face that grave problems. And my moral boost up. Simple.

 

[Azy]

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

Is this a trick question?

I find it a little disturbing that you actually have to ask.

 

[NazariteofEhyah]

okay, in islam when we Muslims are struck by some calamities or are facing hardships, etc certain supplications prescribed which have some kinda handsome reward behind it :statisfie:-[ ...so by saying these in times of harship, we hope for a reward, which kind of helps to reduce (well atleast for me) the severity of the harship...get me?

but as non muslims such rewards aren't sought, because they arent prescribed

so my question is: how do you non Muslims go through hardships..i mean whats your motivation to keep you patient, etc...

There's a limit to the excess any non Muslim would respond to your question. Wishing that your hardships simple disapear doesn't actually work. You need to put some effort into combating your hardships, rather then speaking about them. Words are so easy for humanity, it has reduced itself to lip service. A person's hardship is his or her own's and really have nothing to do with anyone else. We handled hardship in our own way, with our faith and will premitting.

 

[NazariteofEhyah]

There's a limit to the excess any non Muslim would respond to your question. Wishing that your hardships simple disapear doesn't actually work. You need to put some effort into combating your hardships, rather then speaking about them. Words are so easy for humanity, it has reduced itself to lip service. A person's hardship is his or her own's and really have nothing to do with anyone else. We handled hardship in our own way, with our faith and will premitting.

Yet we ought to rejoice in our hardships.