Question for Western Muslims who Followed Conservative Paths to Marriage...

[Tyrion]

Easy to be said than done. Imagine meeting your first potential spouse. During a conversation, you say, hey lovely, do you have Sexually Transmitted Diseases? How do you think she will react? If I was her, I would probably slap you and storm out.

I didn't say it would be easy/not awkward, but I also didn't say to do it in the most tactless way possible... It's an important question, and two mature adults who are looking to spend the rest of their lives together should be able to have a conversation about it at some point before things get too serious.

 

[GuestFellow]

I didn't say it would be easy/not awkward, but I also didn't say to do it in the most tactless way possible... It's an important question, and two mature adults who are looking to spend the rest of their lives together should be able to have a conversation about it at some point before things get too serious.

Salaam,

I understand but how would you ask this question? Give me an example.

 

[Tyrion]

but how would you ask this question?

No idea, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. Both people will be adults looking to marry each other, so I think its expected that the conversation will reach some awkward points, especially if they don't have much experience dealing with the opposite sex. Although, I'd imagine that this would be easier and more appropriate after a few meetings, and not right off the bat.

But yeah, this is the kind of stuff I'm wondering about, and part of the reason I asked the original question. : Has everyone who's done this just had to grit their teeth and go through one of the most awkward periods of their life? I almost can't imagine it... -__-

 

[GuestFellow]

No idea, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Salaam,

Like I said, it's not practicable.

 

[Tyrion]

Like I said, it's not practicable.

But it is.

Do you really need me to write out a possible conversation for you to see it's important and practical? You just ASK. "Hey, we've been getting to know each other for a while, and I really want to go forward with this... But I think we should talk about [Insert awkward but important topic here] before we move on, if that's alright with you..." and etc, etc...

 

[GuestFellow]

But it is.

Do you really need me to write out a possible conversation for you to see it's important and practical? You just ASK. "Hey, we've been getting to know each other for a while, and I really want to go forward with this... But I think we should talk about [Insert awkward but important topic here] before we move on, if that's alright with you..." and etc, etc...

Salaam,

Go ahead. Type the conversation out. If it was practicable, then you ought to have presented an example, rather than saying, no idea. *throws confetti*

 

[Tyrion]

Go ahead. Type the conversation out. If it was practicable, then you ought to have presented an example, rather than saying, no idea. *throws confetti*

I... Just... Did... :heated: It shouldn't be this hard to imagine a conversation... Do you consider any difficult conversation to be impractical and therefore something to be avoided?

 

[GuestFellow]

I... Just... Did... :heated:

Oh so it goes like this:

Tyrion's potential spouse: so what is your favourite colour?

Tyrion: ah it's blue...listen I got to ask you a question.

Tyrion's potential spouse: okay...

Tyrion: don't take this the wrong way, but do you have STD? You see, I don't want to get married to a person who has STD....

Tyrion's potential spouse: :skeleton:

Would the conversation go like this?

It shouldn't be this hard to imagine a conversation... Do you consider any difficult conversation to be impractical and therefore something to be avoided?

Difficult conversations does not mean it is impracticable. Like I had to have difficult conversations with clients but it was practicable. If something is impracticable, I would avoid it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

tragic typos, why is not it possible? It is totally possible. My convo will go something like this.

"Hey, so as we are kind of interested in pursuing this, I am willing to give it a chance. Even though we have just me, being a skeptical person that I am, I think we can do much more to solidify this further. I think its about time where I ask you some uncomfortable questions, and you can also ask me the same. If you happen to not like this approach and do not want to carry on further, that is fine with me. I am sure someone else would be willing to answer it, and that would only make me want to marry them more. I am sure you also have a line of other potential suitors. So let's get serious. I'd like you to be tested for STDs from a doctor of my choice, just for everyone's safety. You can expect the same from me, if you are willing to ...."

That's just a template. Fill in your details.

 

[joyous fairy]

Assalam alaykum,

I have noticed a big difference in the way Pakistani Muslims in Pakistan go about looking for spouses and those that are in the UK. In Pakistan I think nearly all of them have arranged marriages to cousins or distant relatives. The kids dont really have the opportunity to look for someone themselves. I am just talking about village people here, not too sure about those living in cities, but I am assuming its a similar process.

For example, in the UK young Muslims tend to start looking while at uni, either by asking peers or some using online sites to find someone. This way is much more independent and usually involves the kids having to introduce the potential to the parents! Which is quite opposite to the traditional Pakistani way.

Me personally, sometimes I feel like giving up and just marrying who my parents say. I have not actually looked for someone but have had a few proposals lol. The reason I feel like giving up is because I have seen marriages breaking up that have been based on the kids' personal choices. But I have seen this happening in arranged marriages too, so I am left thinking is it really worth it? Going through all that effort in finding someone and then it ending in disaster. Especially if your parents want you to marry someone that they want you to marry.

Nobody is perfect and I dont think anyone will find someone who is perfect, so what is the point in looking for a perfect somone?

Anyway, Tragic Typos, I think asking about STD's is kind of important. What you could do is hint at it, or get a test done for yourself and show them the result, without having to actually say it and they should hopefully understand that you want them to get tested.

 

[CosmicPathos]

In Pakistan I think nearly all of them have arranged marriages to cousins or distant relatives. The kids dont really have the opportunity to look for someone themselves. I am just talking about village people here, not too sure about those living in cities, but I am assuming its a similar process.

What a blinded view of people of Pakistan. Pakistanis, at least the ones living in urban centers, which themselves are much older than the cities of UK, are much more sophisticated, depending on education level, social status and their religiosity.

Marrying relatives and cousins? You seem to be just repeating the stereotype. It is all about what people prefer. If partner of preference happens to be one's cousin, so be it. Moreover, many Pakistanis from UK actually go to Pakistan to find rishtas.

 

[CosmicPathos]

For example, in the UK young Muslims tend to start looking while at uni, either by asking peers or some using online sites to find someone. This way is much more independent and usually involves the kids having to introduce the potential to the parents! Which is quite opposite to the traditional Pakistani way.

That is because these Muslims are raised up in a kaafir environment, so they are accustomed to the cultures of kufaar, and go on a hunt for a spouse themselves. In Pakistan, where things are much more conservative and where young people give much more preference to the opinions and thoughts of their elders, they go about by what their parents suggest, explore, and if they dont like it then ignore. My parents suggested some ppl to me, and I rejected them because I was not interested in those particular people, and that is fine with my parents. If parents happen to find someone who is related to the concept of time (hint hint tragic typos), I wont mind that at all.

Of course that is changing in Pakistan. Now all public parks in Pakistan are full of young unmarried couples dating, kissing or hugging each other. Thanks to the cultures of kufaar.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/326519/in-the-parks-of-karachi/

 

[ardianto]

tragic typos, why is not it possible? It is totally possible. My convo will go something like this.

"Hey, so as we are kind of interested in pursuing this, I am willing to give it a chance. Even though we have just me, being a skeptical person that I am, I think we can do much more to solidify this further. I think its about time where I ask you some uncomfortable questions, and you can also ask me the same. If you happen to not like this approach and do not want to carry on further, that is fine with me. I am sure someone else would be willing to answer it, and that would only make me want to marry them more. I am sure you also have a line of other potential suitors. So let's get serious. I'd like you to be tested for STDs from a doctor of my choice, just for everyone's safety. You can expect the same from me, if you are willing to ...."

That's just a template. Fill in your details.

Really a very rude manner in talking with a woman who will marry you.

 

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,

It seems that many here are missing the point of the sunnah way of marriage......


In any case, with regards to asking a potential spouse to be tested for STIs - this is fine....but I just want to understand this further:

- If you are chosing to marry the potential suitor based on their perceived piety and taqwa.....then how do STIs feature in this equation? (is he/ she a promiscious......yet pious person? .....Interesting!^o))
And if the person in question is a reformed and steadfast muslim after a colourful past.......then, turn to Allah in Istikaarah - and make a decision thereafter.



- And yes, I am aware that it is not possible to determine your potential spouses past sexual behaviour from an initial meeting.

Which is why it is useful to have close family members/ friends who are interested in YOUR interests to be doing background checks on the person in question.
And still......you may never know the entire truth......
But does it matter, if you have read Istikharaah Salaah, and have chosen to be guided by Allah (subhanawata'ala) - the Knower of all that is in the past and the future?

Also, please realise that not all STIs can be tested for.
We can test for HIV, syphillus and hepatitis (which by the way - these viruses can have a 'window period' in the initial few weeks after infection - when the test will produce a falsely negative result.)

And, if these are negative - it does not exclude other STIs, e.g gonorrhoea, herpes (that are not tested for), to name a few.


At the end of the day - its only reliance on Allah (subhanawata'ala) that is going to give you the BEST answer to the question: Should I marry, or should I not marry so-and-so......

Not weeks and months of 'getting to know someone'.
Not laboratory tests.
Not the persons smile, or his/ her fancy words.

If only we could understand this.......

Salaam

 

[GuestFellow]

tragic typos, why is not it possible? It is totally possible. My convo will go something like this.

"Hey, so as we are kind of interested in pursuing this, I am willing to give it a chance. Even though we have just me, being a skeptical person that I am, I think we can do much more to solidify this further. I think its about time where I ask you some uncomfortable questions, and you can also ask me the same. If you happen to not like this approach and do not want to carry on further, that is fine with me. I am sure someone else would be willing to answer it, and that would only make me want to marry them more. I am sure you also have a line of other potential suitors. So let's get serious. I'd like you to be tested for STDs from a doctor of my choice, just for everyone's safety. You can expect the same from me, if you are willing to ...."

That's just a template. Fill in your details.

Salaam,

It is likely most people will get offended and don't even bother to get married. They will find another partner.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Salaam,

It is likely most people will get offended and don't even bother to get married. They will find another partner.

wsalam,
then their loss. I am not dying to marry them. If someone cannot accept this much skepticism and the quest for the truth that can affect my future life, they do not deserve to marry me. I look at it that way.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Really a very rude manner in talking with a woman who will marry you.

I do not see any rudeness in it. Rather a yearning for truth, even if it hurts someone. I've been hurt many a times too by some questions that ppl asked of me, its a cycle that should keep on repeating.

 

[CosmicPathos]

If you are chosing to marry the potential suitor based on their perceived piety and taqwa.....then how do STIs feature in this equation? (is he/ she a promiscious......yet pious person? .....Interesting!)

I think that is because people can fake piety.

Moreover, it is not necessary that STDs were transferred sexually. Someone might just have picked up herpes from their female friend during their skin contact.

 

[Reflections]

I personally don't agree with what cosmicpathos and tyroin have said regarding bringing up that issue. I agree with Tragic..it is not something you can 'just go about asking'. And if that's something you're going to ask a sister in the first meeting (which some people will just have and base their decision on whether to agree marrying that person or not) OR a few meetings or whatever -it's not an issue that a sister is exactly going to be find comfortable to be asked or even answer for that matter.

 

[~Zaria~]

I think that is because people can fake piety.

Indeed, this is what I am trying to say

The question to ask, is: why do we place so little value on this incredible gift of istikhaarah?


“And your Lord said: ‘Invoke Me and ask Me for anything, I will respond to your (invocation).
Verily, those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!’”
[Ghaafir 40:60]


Allah says in Surah Ale Imraan verse 160:

"If Allah helps you none can overcome you: if He forsakes you who is there after that that can help you?
In Allah then let believers put their trust."


Istikharaah is sunnah, brothers and sisters.

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to teach his companions to pray istikhaarah in all things, just as he used to teach them soorahs from the Qur’aan.
Narrated by al-Bukhaari.
Not potentially offensive-to-ask-for blood tests..... :aboo:

Not months and months of getting acquinted with a non-mahram man/ woman.​

Is there any other deen that has the benefit of this sunnah?

What a blessing to this ummah!
SubhanAllah!

Our direct link to our Rabb - the knower of the unseen; the past, the present and the future - is through duaa.

Moreover, it is not necessary that STDs were transferred sexually. Someone might just have picked up herpes from their female friend during their skin contact.

Yes akhi.....this is true for oral infections.
Other, intimate areas are transmitted sexually.


Salaam