Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!

[rebelishaulman]

So, I have a friend who was born Jewish. Both of her parents are practicing Jews, and she was until her late teens/young adulthood. At that time in her life she began to question some aspects of her faith and feel some emptiness. Eventually she came to the conclusion that she believed that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. She has sense married a Christian, "joined" a church (in the way that Christian churches record membership), and her children are being raised primarily in the Christian community, but she still keeps all of the Jewish ritual observances such as Sabbovth, Passover, the non-eating of pork, etc. (and her family with her). She defines herself as a Messianic Jew, but does not want to have anything to do with groups like Jews for Jesus. From my perspective I see her as a Christian who simply values her own cultural history, but how would the Jewish community view her? (I know how her parents and grandparents do, they simply hurt and then try to move on without talking about it anymore than they have to.) And she is hurt when Christians ask her when she is going to give up being a Jew (by that they mean the rituals that she does keep), because she says that being a Jew is as much a part of her as her skin is.

She (and her children since she is female) are/will be Jewish. I am sorry to see that she has chosen to not observe the Torah and believes in a false messiah. "Messianic Judaism" is about as valid as a form of Judaism as Hinduism is in my opinion. In other words it is not valid. She may feel comfortable with her Jewish heritage by keeping the Sabbath (does she really keep the Sabbath, or keep it in the Christian definition of it?), but in reality she is still Jewish, but very lost.

But I am straying off topic. She was born to a Jewish mother so she has no choice in the matter. She is a Jew, will always be a Jew. It is only a matter now, that she as a Jew, who has turned her back on the Torah has a different path then her Christian counterparts which may go to heaven for being righteous gentiles, but that is debatable, and unless you request I will not go into it.

I would like to present you however, with how a glimpse into the views she may get for abandoning the Torah. When a man or woman abandons Judaism for another religion all together (this may even be classified as if they join liberal Judaism which does not keep halacha) It says in a passage in the Or Zarua that Rabbenu Gershom sat shiva for his son, who had become a Christian. To sit "shiva" means immediately upon the burial of the departed, the first-degree relatives assume the status of avel (Hebrew: mourner). This state lasts for seven days, during which family members traditionally gather in one home and receive visitors.

On the first day, it is customary for the mourners not to eat their own food. Traditionally, the neighbors supply the first meal which is called the (סעודת הבראה Hebrew: "seudat havra'ah").

This means that Rabbenu Gershom mourned for his child who left Judaism, like he had died.

-Rabbi Elisha

 

[rebelishaulman]

Another topic that I forgot to mention is the fact that "she says that being a Jew is as much a part of her as her skin is." What most even assimilated Jews do not realize is that Judaism is a religion first. Although it is a peoplehood and culture, religion is the mist important thing. Following Torah is what is important. Not eating Jewish foods and using Yiddish phrases if you know what I mean.

 

[Grace Seeker]

She (and her children since she is female) are/will be Jewish. I am sorry to see that she has chosen to not observe the Torah and believes in a false messiah. "Messianic Judaism" is about as valid as a form of Judaism as Hinduism is in my opinion. In other words it is not valid. She may feel comfortable with her Jewish heritage by keeping the Sabbath (does she really keep the Sabbath, or keep it in the Christian definition of it?), but in reality she is still Jewish, but very lost.

But I am straying off topic. She was born to a Jewish mother so she has no choice in the matter. She is a Jew, will always be a Jew. It is only a matter now, that she as a Jew, who has turned her back on the Torah has a different path then her Christian counterparts which may go to heaven for being righteous gentiles, but that is debatable, and unless you request I will not go into it.

I would like to present you however, with how a glimpse into the views she may get for abandoning the Torah. When a man or woman abandons Judaism for another religion all together (this may even be classified as if they join liberal Judaism which does not keep halacha) It says in a passage in the Or Zarua that Rabbenu Gershom sat shiva for his son, who had become a Christian. To sit "shiva" means immediately upon the burial of the departed, the first-degree relatives assume the status of avel (Hebrew: mourner). This state lasts for seven days, during which family members traditionally gather in one home and receive visitors.

On the first day, it is customary for the mourners not to eat their own food. Traditionally, the neighbors supply the first meal which is called the (סעודת הבראה Hebrew: "seudat havra'ah").

This means that Rabbenu Gershom mourned for his child who left Judaism, like he had died.

-Rabbi Elisha

I get where you are coming from regarding treating it as a death. This is indeed how her family felt at first. Of course, over time, they have adjusted and her parents have chosen not to disown her, have accepted her husband and are connected with their grandkids.

Well, I have never been at her house for Sabbath. I know they keep it in the home on Friday night with the lighting of candles and prayers. I don't think they really keep it in the sense of doing no activity at all on Sabbath, because I know that the kids have gone out for school sports and play in them, and I would assume that include games or practices over that time.

The fact that the Jewish community views all offspring of female Jews as Jews must make for some interesting scenarios. At least I have always found it so. My great-great-great grandmother (mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother) was Jewish, so I guess that means that though I am also a Christian pastor the son of a a Christian pastor that I am also nonetheless Jewish.

 

[rebelishaulman]

I get where you are coming from regarding treating it as a death. This is indeed how her family felt at first. Of course, over time, they have adjusted and her parents have chosen not to disown her, have accepted her husband and are connected with their grandkids.

Well the halachic opinions differ on if it is worth destroying the connection since you can possibly some how influence the grandkids to observe Judaism if you stay in their lives since the grandkids are Jews.

Well, I have never been at her house for Sabbath. I know they keep it in the home on Friday night with the lighting of candles and prayers. I don't think they really keep it in the sense of doing no activity at all on Sabbath, because I know that the kids have gone out for school sports and play in them, and I would assume that include games or practices over that time.

They most likely do not keep the Sabbath but do some of the "traditions" of the Sabbath which probably is enough to fulfill her need to someone stay connected to her people.

The fact that the Jewish community views all offspring of female Jews as Jews must make for some interesting scenarios. At least I have always found it so. My great-great-great grandmother (mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother) was Jewish, so I guess that means that though I am also a Christian pastor the son of a a Christian pastor that I am also nonetheless Jewish.

It does play out to be interesting scenario's yet at the same time, the person who claims the great great grandma was Jewish and is connected through her by all mothers, must also have proof that the Rabbi's will accept to be recognized as a Jew. It is better in that situation to just convert to be safe. I bet there are a few Jews out there who by some miraculous luck on there mothers side are connected by mothers a few generations back and have no clue of there heritage.

 

[snakelegs]

this jewish woman who became a christian is still regarded as jewish by the jewish community and by halacha?
could she be buried in a jewish cemetery?

 

[Grace Seeker]

It does play out to be interesting scenario's yet at the same time, the person who claims the great great grandma was Jewish and is connected through her by all mothers, must also have proof that the Rabbi's will accept to be recognized as a Jew. It is better in that situation to just convert to be safe. I bet there are a few Jews out there who by some miraculous luck on there mothers side are connected by mothers a few generations back and have no clue of there heritage.

So, if I understand you correctly, a person who is born Jewish is Jewish whether they like it or not, even if they reject the faith, in the eyes of Judaism they cannot simply walk away from their faith, they are still Jewish.

And if someone is the child of such a person and that parent is female they too are Jewish, even if raised completely outside of the faith. But if that parent is male, then the child is no longer viewed as Jewish. Why the difference based on gender?

 

[rebelishaulman]

this jewish woman who became a christian is still regarded as jewish by the jewish community and by halacha?
could she be buried in a jewish cemetery?

In the scenario you ask, that would depend on the policy of the particular cemetery.

So, if I understand you correctly, a person who is born Jewish is Jewish whether they like it or not, even if they reject the faith, in the eyes of Judaism they cannot simply walk away from their faith, they are still Jewish.

Correct.

And if someone is the child of such a person and that parent is female they too are Jewish, even if raised completely outside of the faith. But if that parent is male, then the child is no longer viewed as Jewish. Why the difference based on gender?

The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used. There are passages in the Torah where it is understood that a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, unlike the child of a Jewish father and Gentile mother. Another reason is that although the man is nessesary for the creation of a child, the mother carries the baby and gives birth. The examples in the Torah are:

You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son. For he will turn away your son from following Me, and they will worship the gods of others, and the wrath of the L-rd will be kindled against you, and He will quickly destroy you.
(Deuteronomy 7:3-4)

The word "he" is used here, not "she". So there is a prohibition on intermarriage and we can infer that No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish wife. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish husband is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).

Another example is that in Leviticus the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man was considered an Israelite and Jew:

Now, the son of an Israelite woman and he was the son of an Egyptian man went out among the children of Israel, and they quarreled in the camp this son of the Israelite woman, and an Israelite man.
(Leviticus 24:10)

This man is considered a Jew according to Ramban; Torath Kohanim 24:235, based on several factors including his tribal affiliation and punishment for violating Jewish law I believe.

In the book of Ezra, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews:

And Shechaniah, the son of Jehiel, of the sons of Elam, raised his voice and said to Ezra, "We have betrayed our G-d, and we have taken in foreign wives of the peoples of the land, but now there is hope for Israel concerning this. And now, let us make a covenant with our G-d to cast out all the wives and their offspring, by the counsel of the L-rd and those who hasten to [perform] the commandment of our G-d, and according to the Law it shall be done.
(Ezra 10:2-3)

That is why the children of Jewish mothers but gentile fathers are considered Jews, while the children of Non-Jewish mothers are not.

-Rabbi Elisha

 

[Grace Seeker]

Very thorough explanation as to how this view was arrived at.

But, again if I understand you rightly, even though by virture of having a maternal great-great-great-grandmother who was Jewish, you would not consider me Jewish today. At what point, how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish? I would have thought it would end with the first generation that, as you worded it above, "turned away". Is this not the case?

 

[rebelishaulman]

Very thorough explanation as to how this view was arrived at.

But, again if I understand you rightly, even though by virture of having a maternal great-great-great-grandmother who was Jewish, you would not consider me Jewish today. At what point, how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish? I would have thought it would end with the first generation that, as you worded it above, "turned away". Is this not the case?

There is no limit to the number of generations someone can trace back to find they are by some crazy scenario they are Jewish. However, it is on them to prove somehow that the relative was Jewish, which I am not very sure how they would do so. Of course the best scenario for this person who is interested into honoring his/her Jewish past, is conversion to be safe.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you. I can understand that. But my question was looking at it from the other side.


I understood you earlier to say that one would still view a child of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, even if that child walks away from the faith. How far down the family tree does this continue?

Does a Jewish grandmother view her grandchildren as Jewish, even if the daughter has turned away from the faith and the children have been raised in a different faith? Does the local Jewish community see them the same way as the grandmother would?

If so, how about great-grandchildren? This is what I meant by "For how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish?"

You don't consider me Jewish, and I don't expect you to. If my great-great-great grandmother was still alive, I don't think that she would view me as Jewish, even though she was. Or would she?

 

[rebelishaulman]

I understood you earlier to say that one would still view a child of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, even if that child walks away from the faith. How far down the family tree does this continue?

It continues forever.

Does a Jewish grandmother view her grandchildren as Jewish, even if the daughter has turned away from the faith and the children have been raised in a different faith? Does the local Jewish community see them the same way as the grandmother would?

It depends if the community views the child under the lense of Jewish law (Halacha). There are opinions that a parent should not sit shiva, mourn, and consider the child dead if it is a daughter because her children will still be Jewish and a Jewish influence of the grandparents can possibly save them from abandonment of Torah in the family line. A son to, could convert and by some chance marry a Jew who is a Jew by halacha at least.

If so, how about great-grandchildren? This is what I meant by "For how many generations would one continue to consider a child, grandchild, great-grandchild Jewish?"

When it starts becoming a "great grandparents" thing, it is tough to prove. But the person is still Jewish if it is true.

You don't consider me Jewish, and I don't expect you to. If my great-great-great grandmother was still alive, I don't think that she would view me as Jewish, even though she was. Or would she?

It is not of concern if she would view you as a Jew. You would still be a Jew if you could connect through females all the way to a Jew.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is not of concern if she would view you as a Jew. You would still be a Jew if you could connect through females all the way to a Jew.

LOL I probably shouldn't think it so funny, because I know it is serious for you.

My family is really big on geneology. My father, uncle, and grandmother on my father's side all love it. They can trace my family back as far as 1735. But it is on my mom's side that we really have all the details going back as far as 1619, when another of my great, great, (I don't know how many) grandmothers came as a single woman literally "swept" off the streets of London and sent to America to be the first marriage in Jamestown. Family legend has it that she was a red-headed Jew, but I can't prove that. And besides that is my mother's father's family.

But, my great-great-great-grandmother Rebeccah Houser, no problem. Her parents were Mordechai and Margalit Goldstamm who came here from Germany in 1842, and she was born 2 years later. And she married my great-great-great grandfather Aaron Houser in 1862. I remember that easily because my mom (Margaret) was named after her own great-grandmother who was Rebeccah's daughter. And as a kid growing up my dad, whenever I complained about my name (I was named after my dad), said that they always could have gone with Mordecai. It wasn't till I began to do some geneology stuff myself as an adult that I discovered the actual spelling of it was Mordechai, not that I would have relished either when I was a kid. When our children were born my wife wanted to name our first daughter after one of her cousins Becky, Rachel, and Sarah. And since I knew that Rebeccah was a family name, we just went with that one, only left off the "h" and called her Becca.

I don't know when they left Judaism, probably either my great-great-great grandmother herself, or her daughter Margaret. There is a listing in my great-grandmother's family Bible that was passed down to my mom that lists Rebeccah's bat mitzvah at the age of 12 in Cornell, NY; nothing for my great-great-great grandfather accept his date of birth, marriage and death, and also nothing for my great-great grandmother Margaret. But then both a birthdate and a baptism date is given for my great grandmother Elise in 1887. (That's another interesting name story. I guess her given name is actually Elisheva, after an aunt, but she changed it as an adult. Curiously there are no confirmation dates for anyone, just birth's, baptism, marriages, and date of death. My great-great-great grandmother Rebecca being the only exception to that. And we don't even have a birthdate or anything for Mordechai and Margalit, just their dates of death.

Any reason why my great-grandmother would indicate the location of her grandmother's bat mitzvah, but not record the location for baptisms or marriages or deaths, just births?

 

[rebelishaulman]

Sounds like a very interesting family history. With the name "Mordechai" in your family, a Jew. The name "Mordecai" (

) is explained by the Rabbis as a compound of

, the Aramaic form of

(= "pure myrrh"). Mordecai is identified with thebearer of that name who, according to Ezra ii. 2 and Neh. vii. 7, returned with Zerubbabel from the Captivity; and as in both passages "Mordecai" is followed by "Bilshan," the Rabbis consider that "Mordecai" and "Bilshan" were the names of one man, the latter name having been given him on account of his knowledge of many languages. According to another opinion (deriving

from

). Mordecai is identical with the prophet Malachi, the latter name having been given to him after he became viceroy. But all the Rabbis agree that Mordecai was a prophet and that he prophesied in the second year of Darius (Meg. 10b, 15a; Ḥul. 139b).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/pages/JG9GGG7V.jpg
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/pages/JH9HHH8U.jpg

Either way, it sounds like you are not Jewish, but certainly have roots in some areas of Jews, who most likely abandoned there faith and ceased following Torah, for reasons that I obviously do not know.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Either way, it sounds like you are not Jewish, but certainly have roots in some areas of Jews, who most likely abandoned there faith and ceased following Torah, for reasons that I obviously do not know.

Darn. And I was so hoping.

So, what is the reason that I am not? Because one of my grandmothers walked away from her faith and subsequently everyone in the family has been raised Christian? Or was there another break that you saw, for Rebeccah (the one for whom we have a bat mitzvah date) is my mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother.

 

[rebelishaulman]

Darn. And I was so hoping.

So, what is the reason that I am not? Because one of my grandmothers walked away from her faith and subsequently everyone in the family has been raised Christian? Or was there another break that you saw, for Rebeccah (the one for home we have a bat mitzvah date) is my mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother.

Maybe I did not do my best to follow. I didn't realize that Rebbecah was connected to you through you mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother. If true, then you could very well be Jewish according to halacha.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe I did not do my best to follow. I didn't realize that Rebbecah was connected to you through you mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's mother. If true, then you could very well be Jewish according to halacha.

Well, it is ok if I am not. I don't think I will lose any sleep over it. Does the line end with me and my brother? Since my mother had no daughters, does this mean that her children are Jewish, but her grandchildren are not Jewish?

 

[rebelishaulman]

Well, it is ok if I am not. I don't think I will lose any sleep over it. Does the line end with me and my brother? Since my mother had no daughters, does this mean that her children are Jewish, but her grandchildren are not Jewish?

It seems that if your story and conclusion are completely accurate, then yes, it ends with you and your brother.

 

[thirdwatch512]

this jewish woman who became a christian is still regarded as jewish by the jewish community and by halacha?
could she be buried in a jewish cemetery?

i think it depends on the denomination. like reform jews made the decision in i think 2002 that no one is considered jewish unless they are practicing, or something like that. that might not be correct, but it was something along that nature.

 

[snakelegs]

In the scenario you ask, that would depend on the policy of the particular cemetery.

i don't think it would be up to the cemetery - what does the halacha say about it? can a jew who became a christian be buried in a jewish cemetery?
this is the first time i am reading anything like this - that a jewish woman who becomes christian is still considered a jew by jewish law.

 

[Grace Seeker]

A woman who is not a Jew converts to Judaism. At the time she has one adult child no longer living at home. She has one young pre-school child living at home. She is pregnant with a third. And later in life has a fourth child. Given that the child of a Jewish mother is him/herself a Jew also, does that apply to each of these children?

How would it change if the father divorced the mother, and moved away taking the children with him and none of them were raised as Jews?